If Sylvanas went to the maw and hated it

[Selastan]

1. Yes, she went to the Maw. It's implied that the Jailer used Arthas' Val'kyr to pull her there.

2. Do you honestly think she is working for the Jailer? I mean, she is, but it is really obvious she wants to betray him. Jailer wants souls so he can break free or something. Sylvanas wants to end death.

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I just know she's gonna pull a reverse card on all of us.

Something like the Jailer is invincible while in the Maw but if she helps break him out he will be vulnerable to death. She will be the new Illidan after the 2nd raid and once we kill the Jailer she will take his place as the new Jailer of the Maw and be regarded as an unsung hero of Azeroth.

Honestly, I kinda predict this as well and I don't like it. Sylvanas betraying the Jailer is a given, but her staying behind in the Shadowlands to contain it is WAY to cliche and similar to Illidan, but it is exactly what Blizzard would do. If it does end with a self-sacrifice from Sylvanas, I will finally join the 'Blizzard's Writing Sucks' club.

[deviantcultist]

1. no one goes directly to the maw, no one in history has, why everyone is freaking the fuck out that EVERYONE is going there.

2. as we see with uther and such with arthas, they can intercept people, so the jailor knew sylvanas was going to perish and was prepared, the second she did he had her valkyr take her to the maw to show her the worst possible nightmare, funnily enough she even saw arthas there, which also makes sense cause uther and such threw him there before she died!

The book described it that the moment she died she was immediately interacting with a state of being that reflects the Maw. In other words, she was deemed worthy for the Maw immediately the moment she died.

Even if she didn't go there directly, to consider her deserving of the Maw back in WotLK is rather absurd. She did far less than Garrosh or Kael'thas back then. Her only "sin" compared to them was the fact that she was undead, something that she never wished for to begin with.

[Selastan]

Of course it will.

Even if she doesn't "become the new Jailer" the only way out for Sylvanas as a "morally grey" character that they claim she still is, is killing herself to save everyone. Cause she's already tried to kill everyone.

You can't try to kill everyone and then come back from that without self-sacrifice. Even Illidan's was a hacked together abomination where they had to act like everyone was incompetent enough to just not notice what was going on around them. His entire story LITERALLY requires that nobody bothered to question why Illidan attacked Azeroth. We just PRESUMED he went insane and killed him, and rather than try to dispell that misinterpretation, Illidan just decided to roll with it.

I expect the same level of thrown together bullshit, if not worse, for when they try to rewrite BfA into Sylvanas being a good guy.

Illidan's story in BC was the best, though. It wasn't just 'we thought he was insane and he just went with it.' The enemy of your enemy isn't always your friend, and just because Illidan target the Legion doesn't mean that he was a good guy. He slaughtered and enslaved, caused tons of suffering, and even used souls as fuel. It was all in character, too. In Warcaft III he tried to destroy Northrend just to take out the Lich King, enslaving a planet to get at Kil'Jaedin isn't outside his motives. It's also not outside our motives to stop him.

Anyway, that's a bit off-topic, but I will never let my love of BC's lore die. Back on point, there are tons of ways this could go. They don't need to rewrite Sylvanas into being a good guy for her to live. She's not good, bad, or 'morally grey', she is just neutral, and I see that as the natural end of this story arc:

Sylvanas will likely fail at her plan to kill death, because the WoW universe is obviously not going to continue with everyone immortal. The Jailer likely knows about her plans, and thwarts her. She then helps whatever new Patch 9.3 faction is against the Jailer's final dungeon, likely not directly as everyone wants her guts. The Jailer dies, everyone celebrates, Sylvanas disappears into the wild.

That's the second most likely option, knowing Blizzard's writing style. First most is the aforementioned self-sacrifice. What I would do is:

Jailer dies, Sylvanas is confronted by anti-Jailer 9.3 faction. She fights, fails, and her body is destroyed. Her banshee form is about to be annihilated as well, but something stops the blow: Nathanos. He dies in her stead, and in the confusion she possesses his body and escapes. She lives on inside of him, the two together in a twisted verison of what both wanted: Nathonos as close to his love as can be, and Sylvanas using him like she did so many times before.

[Heldamon]

Maybe the jailer is sending her back as part of her torture, so she finds out that since she's part of his minions, by sending more souls to the maw she becomes stronger, so then she opens the shadolands gate to bring everyone in to confront him.

[shise]

Because she doesn't want to burn in hell forever and would rather fuck over everyone else and save herself than suffer eternal torment.

Like none else would ever do, right?

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Anyway. People assume that Sylvanas works for the Jailer and that is not really based on any fact. All we have are clues,
but people miss the biggest clue and known fact: Sylvanas does NOT, ever, work for anyone Just let that sink in.

[LadyLisanna]

So she flings herself off icecrown, dies and goes to what she calls hell. She hates it and makes a deal with the valkyr to leave

Is the hell she talked about even the maw? Are there valkyr in the maw?

Why did she suddenly do an 180 and join the guy that made her afterlife miserable?

Did she go to another unknown realm? If someone is ressurected, are their souls just pulled from the shadowlands without the intervention of the pantheon of death?

Death is even more confusing than timetravel imo

I can confirm, that this is in fact what happened. In the Collectors edition art book they confirm that is what happend.

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Y'know I always assumed she went to the Maw because she was undead and undead souls are too damaged to really go anywhere else, thus her urgency in finding immortality for herself and the Forsaken to avoid the inevitable. I mean when Godfrey shot her didn't she return to the darkness a second time?

So dude, she has been working for the jailer this whole time. Since the end of wrath, the collectore edtiong book confirms this as such

[Kathranis]

Her only "sin" compared to them was the fact that she was undead, something that she never wished for to begin with.

Do we see any other Forsaken or Scourge in the Shadowlands? I know KT is supposed to be in Maldraxxus but I'm not sure what his story is there.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I sincerely hope Blizzard has an explaination for every possible fallacy coming Shadowlands.

I don't want to live another WoD scenario. You either have the skill to satisfyingly explain enormous occurrences (like death and time travel), or you don't even try. Let's hope they learned something in these years

[Moonrage]

Technically speaking, the Edge of Night description of Sylvanas' afterlife resemble our current picture of the Maw.

If pre-Cata Sylvanas was considered worthy of the Maw, then something is really wrong with the moral state of the Shadowlands. I don't like current Sylvanas at all, but the self-righteous attitude of the Shadowlands I like even less.

She's done a lot of shady stuff before Cata too. Definitely worthy of being damned to the Maw.

[deviantcultist]

She's done a lot of shady stuff before Cata too. Definitely worthy of being damned to the Maw.

In Revendreth, there is someone who destroyed his whole planet. In Maldraxxus you have that scum Emeni who murdered her whole clan and family for power.

If those characters are considered "redeemable", how is pre-Cata Sylvanas considered Maw material? At THAT point she was far more innocent than Garrosh and Kael'thas who ended up in Revendreth.

Don't get me wrong, current Sylvanas is 100% worthy of the Maw. Back then she was far less morally black than she is now. In other words, her going to the Maw back then was not justified and she is most likely not the first one to get the wrong treatment.

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I sincerely hope Blizzard has an explaination for every possible fallacy coming Shadowlands.

I don't want to live another WoD scenario. You either have the skill to satisfyingly explain enormous occurrences (like death and time travel), or you don't even try. Let's hope they learned something in these years

That and also the whole self-righteous attitude needs to be addressed. Every single aspect of the Shadowlands binds the soul with some kind of duty. If anything, afterlife is supposed to be "release" or "peace".

If they want to make the Warcraft Afterlife a prison of service and duty, they better give players the agency to retaliate against it.

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Do we see any other Forsaken or Scourge in the Shadowlands? I know KT is supposed to be in Maldraxxus but I'm not sure what his story is there.

I believe Kel'Thuzad is part of either Maldraxxus or Revendreth. Even he didn't get the Maw as opposed to Sylvanas who got it straight away back in WotLK.

[FelPlague]

B..baka
the reason you have for there being Vrykul in the maw, is because Arthas and Odyn used powers from the Shadowlands(Odyn actually used light powers iirc) and I stated that they're based on Kyrians who are not in the maw, until very recently, but they are not Valkyr(Vrykul women) and we have no proof that Valkyr are in the Maw.
Also can you point me to where Kyrian have been going to the Maw for a LONG time, or do you mean them dropping people into the maw?

Except it is not very recent, the kyrians have been going to the maw for a long, long time.
"No proof valkyr are in the maw" no, but it is confirmed the valky's power originates from there.
"Where kyrian have been going to the maw for a long time."

Its literally in the fucking questing experiance, ever since the begining of bastion itself, any who did not agree with their ways became forsworn, and eventually even being kicked to the maw as mawsworn (no longer worthy of bastion) only RECENTLY have they began to be able to ESCAPE the maw.

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The book described it that the moment she died she was immediately interacting with a state of being that reflects the Maw. In other words, she was deemed worthy for the Maw immediately the moment she died.

Even if she didn't go there directly, to consider her deserving of the Maw back in WotLK is rather absurd. She did far less than Garrosh or Kael'thas back then. Her only "sin" compared to them was the fact that she was undead, something that she never wished for to begin with.

Again you dont know how the shadowlands work, NO ONE EVER is deemed worthy of the maw right away, idk if you know but the souls dont witness their journy, to her it was instant cause when they die they just lose themselves, the souls we see traveling to their location do nothing but mumble about their deaths not a single "where am i, whats this, omfg!" its all "IT BURNS, ILLIDAN SAVE ME, FOR THE HORDE, FOR THE ALLIANCE, I WILL NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!"

and AGAIN she is NOT DESERVING OF THE MAW, BECAUSE NO ONE IS.
what do you not get about that, NOT A SINGLE PERSON goes straight to the maw. holy fuck, read up on some actual ingame lore first.

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Do we see any other Forsaken or Scourge in the Shadowlands? I know KT is supposed to be in Maldraxxus but I'm not sure what his story is there.

Yes we do, for example alexandros mograine who became a 4 horsemen under the scourge is in maldraxxus. Kelthuzad is aswell but he did not go there normally through "death" he went there on his own accord, being a lich and all.

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how is pre-Cata Sylvanas considered Maw material?

because you are wrong, you are 100% wrong. literally no one is maw material, that is why you need to fucking read up on the lore, no one goes directly to the maw, literally no one, the only ones who do are those who fail redemption within revendreth.

[deviantcultist]

Except it is not very recent, the kyrians have been going to the maw for a long, long time.
"No proof valkyr are in the maw" no, but it is confirmed the valky's power originates from there.
"Where kyrian have been going to the maw for a long time."

Its literally in the fucking questing experiance, ever since the begining of bastion itself, any who did not agree with their ways became forsworn, and eventually even being kicked to the maw as mawsworn (no longer worthy of bastion) only RECENTLY have they began to be able to ESCAPE the maw.

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Again you dont know how the shadowlands work, NO ONE EVER is deemed worthy of the maw right away, idk if you know but the souls dont witness their journy, to her it was instant cause when they die they just lose themselves, the souls we see traveling to their location do nothing but mumble about their deaths not a single "where am i, whats this, omfg!" its all "IT BURNS, ILLIDAN SAVE ME, FOR THE HORDE, FOR THE ALLIANCE, I WILL NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!"

and AGAIN she is NOT DESERVING OF THE MAW, BECAUSE NO ONE IS.
what do you not get about that, NOT A SINGLE PERSON goes straight to the maw. holy fuck, read up on some actual ingame lore first.

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Yes we do, for example alexandros mograine who became a 4 horsemen under the scourge is in maldraxxus. Kelthuzad is aswell but he did not go there normally through "death" he went there on his own accord, being a lich and all.

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because you are wrong, you are 100% wrong. literally no one is maw material, that is why you need to fucking read up on the lore, no one goes directly to the maw, literally no one, the only ones who do are those who fail redemption within revendreth.

You are the one who needs to read up on the lore and fix your attitude. Even if you disagree with me, you are childish to argue that me or anyone bringing up these facts is oblivious to the lore.

You keep dodging the point being raised by the book where Sylvanas was taken into a Maw setting without any other step before that. You are also clueless as to how without the intervention of the Arbiter, the Maw is claiming souls freely just like how it is now that it is fully broken.

About Sylvanas, the only way you could be right is if somehow her afterlife experience has been retconned or omitted on purpose due to lack of development back when Edge of Night was released.

[FelPlague]

You are the one who needs to read up on the lore and fix your attitude. Even if you disagree with me, you are childish to argue that me or anyone bringing up these facts is oblivious to the lore.

You keep dodging the point being raised by the book where Sylvanas was taken into a Maw setting without any other step before that. You are also clueless as to how without the intervention of the Arbiter, the Maw is claiming souls freely just like how it is now that it is fully broken.

About Sylvanas, the only way you could be right is if somehow her afterlife experience has been retconned or omitted on purpose due to lack of development back when Edge of Night was released.

Because you are obvlious to lore, it has already been stated by many in the community who have actually played the beta.

literally fucking no one goes straight to the maw.

Get beta access, play the beta, and then talk to me about your head cannons.

How did sylvanas see the maw? she was taken there by the jailor's minions, she was not SENT there, because NO ONE IS SENT THERE.

When people die they enter a catatonic state and their souls are sent to the arbiter to judge where they will go, SHE DOES NOT send ANY TO THE MAW.

however as seen beings from the shadowlands with the power to go free of the shadowlands are able to interupt her process and collect specific souls, like we saw with uther collecting arthas. the jailors minions did the same with sylvanas.

the only reason souls are going straight to the maw now is the arbiter is offline, and with the machine broken everything is just dumping into the maw, when she was alive, which she was everything before mid legion, NO ONE went directly to the maw, anyone deemed evil went to revendreth, in hope they could be redeemed, and if they could not THEN they would go to the maw.

The book is what we see through sylvanas's eyes, when they die their soul enters a catatonic state, they do not see the journey, they only re-awaken once they are in their designated realm.

[deviantcultist]

Because you are obvlious to lore, it has already been stated by many in the community who have actually played the beta.

literally fucking no one goes straight to the maw.

Get beta access, play the beta, and then talk to me about your head cannons.

How did sylvanas see the maw? she was taken there by the jailor's minions, she was not SENT there, because NO ONE IS SENT THERE.

When people die they enter a catatonic state and their souls are sent to the arbiter to judge where they will go, SHE DOES NOT send ANY TO THE MAW.

however as seen beings from the shadowlands with the power to go free of the shadowlands are able to interupt her process and collect specific souls, like we saw with uther collecting arthas. the jailors minions did the same with sylvanas.

the only reason souls are going straight to the maw now is the arbiter is offline, and with the machine broken everything is just dumping into the maw, when she was alive, which she was everything before mid legion, NO ONE went directly to the maw, anyone deemed evil went to revendreth, in hope they could be redeemed, and if they could not THEN they would go to the maw.

The book is what we see through sylvanas's eyes, when they die their soul enters a catatonic state, they do not see the journey, they only re-awaken once they are in their designated realm.

You don't respond to anything I say and you keep going at your own thoughts and attitude. Guess I should leave you to your echo chamber.

[FelPlague]

You don't respond to anything I say and you keep going at your own thoughts and attitude. Guess I should leave you to your echo chamber.

I don't because your opinion is pointless since it comes from a place of lack of knowledge, your opinion on the subject is pointless because it is uninformed and filled with misinformation.

you are wrong, get on beta, do research.
There is nothing else to explain, i told you that you are wrong, i told you why you are wrong, i told you how you are wrong, i told you how it works, and you returned to "no because this!" which is wrong.

You are wrong, do some research, or accept that you are wrong.

you have yet to give me an ACTUAL REASON so to why its impossible, or wrong, you said "but the book she went directly there" we are told from her perspective the story, which when souls are transfered to the shadowlands they go into a catatonic state, so yes, she would "instantly be in the maw" because she would enter the state, and her soul would be dragged there by the mawsworn, and she would finally awake there.

You speak in the most absolutlty illlogcial way "she was instasntly in the maw!"
no one instantly goes anywhere, their soul needs to travel to the shadowlands, then to the arbiter, then to be sorted, and then eventually sent to their respective realms, that all takes time.

your logic of "but it was instant so she cant have been... carried away" is flawed, because even if somehow she was sent directly to the maw, that would not be instant either.

because it isnt instant no matter what, it takes time, but during that time they are catatonic.


If you wish to try and flail about with your attempt at explaining your headcannon tell us.

How was it instant?
WHat happened?
How did she get sent directly to the maw?
Answer these questions. Cause you seem to have this HUGE focus on "THE INSTANT SHE DIES SHE WAS IN THE MAW!" which somehow disproves she was carried there by mawsworn? But somehow proves she was.. sent to the shadowlands, then held there at oribos till she could be sorted, then somehow in something that had never been done before, deemed worthy of the maw, then was transported all the way to the maw to where she THEN woke up. By the way this all happening instantly again, somehow.

Infracted.

[Varodoc]

Even if she doesn't "become the new Jailer" the only way out for Sylvanas as a "morally grey" character that they claim she still is, is killing herself to save everyone. Cause she's already tried to kill everyone.

They never said she was morally grey. They said the HORDE is morally grey.

[Selastan]

Well for one: We're not killing Death. We don't know that's Sylvanas' plan, and even if we DID kill the Jailer, we most certainly haven't killed Death itself. If that IS Sylvanas' plan, she's stupid, because killing creatures in the death realm doesn't stop Death for sure - In fact, it pretty heavily proves that Death cannot be stopped, even by Death itself.

Never said killing the Jailer was Sylvanas' plan, or that it would lead to the end of death. We know she wants to free the world from death, that's her goal. She's helping the Jailer because it will aid her plans in some way. Maybe the chaos of the Jailer being free is what she needs to sabotage whatever system keeps souls in the Shadowlands. We don't know her plan, only her goal, and helping the Jailer is only one step in it.

[Soon-TM]

As for how she went to the Maw, unless Blizzard are snorting crack, it's because of the Jailor hijacking her soul to use her as an agent given that Icecrown is a place where the veil between life and death is very thin.

I really hope Blizzard doesn't go that way, because it leaves the field open for Sylvie 's Kerrigan-isation. And given how Danuser & co. have the subtlety of a wrecking ball when it comes to hints... Well

[Aucald]

Sylvanas' experience may not have even been the Maw as we later see, she may simply have been given a vision of sorts - a portion of what durance at the Jailer's tender mercy is like for souls tortured in Toghast. Elements of it may have been real, or perhaps not, but the entire experience was engineered to horrify Sylvanas and secure her later allegiance.

[Okacz]

Technically speaking, the Edge of Night description of Sylvanas' afterlife resemble our current picture of the Maw.

If pre-Cata Sylvanas was considered worthy of the Maw, then something is really wrong with the moral state of the Shadowlands. I don't like current Sylvanas at all, but the self-righteous attitude of the Shadowlands I like even less.

Yeah. Lady Vashj, responsible by dehydration of half a fucking planet and letting its denizens to die of thirst, didn't go straight to Maw. Kael'Thas, who felt like summoning the satan to the world and allowing him to destroy it, starting with the country he was the ruler of, didn't go there as well. Freaking Garrosh is fine too. Wrath Sylvanas? What did she do, manufacture Blight, which main purpose was to destroy the Lich King? That's Maw-worthly?

Besides, her being "let off" so easily, and getting a few Val'kyr as freebies seems suspicious. What, if someone had any ability to control the undead and would end in Maw, he could just talk the way out of there?

My headcanon for now is that this was a setup all along. Jailer was observing the Lich King situation all along, and pretty much abandoned his pawn at the time of assault on Icecrown. Arthas and the whole idea of invading Azeroth with Scourge has failed, so he needed a new tool. Someone from the group that has defeated the Lich King, proving his or her strength, while also posessing certain power over the Undeath, so he wouldn't have to prepare a whole basic tutorial.

And it just so happens Sylvanas not only was there, she also commited suicide, allowing Jailer to mess things up. He might have actually fabricated the whole Maw thing, showing her the worst possible afterlife and then letting her go. Hence, Sylvanas continued to live, always remembering the afterlife she's destined to end up in, and her goal changes to "do anything possible not to end up there". All the time unaware that it she probably wouldn't, and it was Jailers trick all along. And, just like in the short story, at the time she begins to value her people even more, believing that the strength of the Forsaken is what can keep her from death.

That might explain a few things. Sylvanas was genuinely suprised when Vol'Jin named her the Warchief, indicating that she was, at the time, unaware of Jailer or his plan. Only after that, around the time she made a deal with Helya, did she start to work alongside him, coming up with a plan that ended with the events of Shadowlands. That could explain her character shift in BfA as well, at this point she has a complete plan for her to avoid the Maw, and follows a straight road to avoid it, ensuring that she stirs as much conflict as possible.