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  1. #121
    Alliance is law, Horde is chaos.

    Both can be evil, neutral, or good.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Right I never said it did, but the intent of killing them based on the race MUST be. You didn't read any of the posts. If you blow up a Target because you hate Target and it just so happens to be that every person in there was white, is that genocide? No. Neither is burning the tree.

    Intent plays a big role in it. However oddly if you succeed in unintentionally killing off of an entire race it does count as well. So basically it's either you kill the entire race either intentionally or not OR you kill a large number of them with the intent of killing them based on the race. Neither apply here.
    Last edited by ohwell; 2020-10-25 at 08:49 PM.

  3. #123
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Right I never said it did, but the intent of killing them based on the race MUST be.
    No, it does not. Your reason for killing them can be racial, political, or cultural. In this instance, the reason is a mixture of political and cultural, but primarily the former.

    Intent plays a big role in it. However oddly if you succeed in unintentionally killing off of an entire race it does count as well. So basically it's either you kill the entire race either intentionally or not OR you kill a large number of them with the intent of killing them based on the race. Neither apply here.
    Again, here is the definition. What you are saying is required for it to be genocide are not required.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  4. #124
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    Teldrassil wasn't really the entire race was it? It's debatable if it was genocide but not that it was a war crime.
    if I'm not mistaken, before Teldrassil: Astranaar, Silverwing Refuge, Maestra's Post, Auberdine, and Lor'danel were all down to the last civilian
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  5. #125
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Zandalari aren't (except Blood Trolls, but I think they're something diffrent entirely), so not every troll tribe is
    Zandalari have not practiced cannibalism for a long, long time, and their DS cousins abandoned it at Thrall's behest when they joined the New Horde.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I know during WCI & II the Horde were the bad guys. Since Vanilla however the Horde were depicted as a group of exiles banding together to survive (something I really liked!). Beyond PvP the conflict was mostly border disputes until Cataclysm. Granted Garrosh became a War Criminal but he was cast out by the Horde. Now obviously Sylvanas is evil and I agree Blizzard did a terrible job regarding the Horde throughout BfA, BUT do people genuinely believe that the Horde were always evil?

    Personally I play both factions so naturally have seen the good, the bad and the ugly side from both sides.
    2 sides of the same coin. The base morality is the same, it's just the Alliance takes on a more arrogant and holier than thou aspect while the Horde takes on a more destructive but realistic aspect.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDragon View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I know during WCI & II the Horde were the bad guys. Since Vanilla however the Horde were depicted as a group of exiles banding together to survive (something I really liked!). Beyond PvP the conflict was mostly border disputes until Cataclysm. Granted Garrosh became a War Criminal but he was cast out by the Horde. Now obviously Sylvanas is evil and I agree Blizzard did a terrible job regarding the Horde throughout BfA, BUT do people genuinely believe that the Horde were always evil?

    Personally I play both factions so naturally have seen the good, the bad and the ugly side from both sides.
    In the Horde vs Alliance expansion, where the cinematic was from two perspectives, the one yelling "For the Horde!!" was revealed to have a singular goal of causing as many deaths as possible.

    Someone manned those catapults at Teldrassil.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Zandalari have not practiced cannibalism for a long, long time, and their DS cousins abandoned it at Thrall's behest when they joined the New Horde.
    As a forsaken I am actively partaking in the consumption of manflesh.

  8. #128
    I think the problem is they're a group of exiles defined by their rebellion against evil leadership.

    When you go through 3 periods of evil leadership in the span of 30 years that starts going from an outlier to a trend in many people's eyes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    No, it does not. Your reason for killing them can be racial, political, or cultural. In this instance, the reason is a mixture of political and cultural, but primarily the former.



    Again, here is the definition. What you are saying is required for it to be genocide are not required.
    The definition says the destruction of them. She didn't destroy them. Thanks.

  10. #130
    Epic! Whitedragon's Avatar
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    I'm kind of 50/50 on this.

    In general I would say no, but they love to walk a very thin line. They love to go to the most crazy option at the drop of a hat, and they do seem to have some trouble staying away from senseless slaughter because "the ends justifies the means" dose come up quite often. That all being said I feel they have cut most of the evil characters out of their ranks so hopefully they don't need another purging anytime soon.

    My most whiled hope is that they announce Warcraft 4 at this online blizzcon and they use that to build the lore while we are away in shadowlands. That way when we get back we may have a whole new world to play in, with new characters built from the RTS.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    The definition says the destruction of them. She didn't destroy them. Thanks.
    Are you stupid or something?
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-10-26 at 05:48 AM. Reason: Minor Trolling

  12. #132
    The Lightbringer
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    Yeah, absolutely. From the start as daemonic pawns and then just as savage conquering barbarian aliens. Then you had Thrall's Horde who were people trying to escape justice and you can say "but they were fleeing prison thooooooughhhhhh" and overlook that they were there for committing genocide and trying to wipe out everyone but losing. They then immediately started more wars once out and only stopped temporarily to join with the good and neutral factions to stop an even worse turbo-genocide faction that would have wiped them out as well rather than locking them up. Not to mention a lot of them joined that faction anyway because they're straight up fucking evil rather than "evil but for reasons other than just power/murderlust".

    Then you had them joining with the Forsaken who are absolutely mega fucking evil. Take a faction that were daemonic pawns (like the first Horde), multiple genocides and just the fact their whole thing is "we aren't evil Scourge anymore but we're still doing all the Scourge things but we're doing it freely not because of mind control so it's somehow not evil" and yet portray people like the Scarlet Crusade as evil for stopping them. The Forsaken work as a faction because they typically don't try to hide the fact they're fucking evil whereas the Horde in general denies it.

    Then you've got Garrosh Era Horde which actually did LESS evil things than usual, tried to curtail the Horde's worst excesses but were still openly militant conquerors and evil. They just didn't hide it and didn't want to go too far with shit but then it all kinda went bad and they went to an alternate timeline to try to genocide the Draenei (and then everyone else) again. They lost but the survivors once more portrayed the Light-aligned faction, Yrel's crew in this timeline, as evil for trying to stop them from doing more genocides because that's what they always ALWAYS do. Repeatedly.

    Then you've got Sylvanans Era Horde that are just flat out dull boring evil again with only a couple rebelling and backstabbing because they think they will lose the war and have experience of losing wars before. They think "shit guys you really don't want to piss the Alliance off again, they might actually do something this time" and pissing themselves into betrayal, which they do but ultimately only because the Alliance was about to wipe them out and Sylvanas mocked them. Genocide was fine. Mass murder was fine. Civil war was fine. Being mocked by your blatantly evil selfish leader? WHOA NO WAY, TOO FAR.

    Again, the Horde is just flat out straight up 100% fucking evil. Orcs and Undead are right out there in the open as genocidal murderers without hesitation. Tauren are kinda sad and tragic in that they got caught up in this whole thing and have tried numerous times to even it out and not get too involved but are bound by loyalty and habit to help them and so are evil by complicity rather than malice. If any part of the Horde is redeemable, it's the Tauren. The Trolls likewise just kinda ended up being saved by them and bound to them in the same sense. They've contributed even less to the Horde and are a pathetic jobber race, not just the Darkspear but also the Zandalari, who kinda got dragged into this whole mess. The Darkspear are evil by complicity and the Zandalari are kinda more Neutral beforehand, certainly bad dudes that do bad shit but now they're signed up to an evil faction so are Evil-aligned. Last of all are Goblins that are another entirely Neutral faction that's in it for the money and I don't think anyone buys into them being legitimate members of the Horde rather than mercenaries. Blood Elves are absolutely a Neutral race that is wholly self-serving backstabbing wankers that have tried numerous times to leave the Horde just as they left the Horde the second they had to get their hands dirty. They also allied with Illidan and the fucking Naaru when it served their purposes and they were getting stomped. Blood Elves are like Goblins, Neutral faction that is Evil-aligned due to allegiance.

    The Allied Races beyond the Zandalari joining the Horde are just bullshit excuses for romance paths and make no sense. I would argue they are again evil by joining an Evil-aligned faction rather than evil at heart. Same way the Dark Irons are pretty fucking bad but joined a Good-aligned faction.

    There you have it though. The Horde are pretty fucking evil in different ways over the time and different races are more flagrantly evil than others. Orcs that have been there from the start and have committed like 5-6 genocides at this point are way worse than a Vulpera that joined the Horde because some Tauren saved his family from a snakebro trying to enslave them.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Apeachy View Post
    yea they burn trees
    Trees are literally evil.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    The actions of one woman, serving a neutral organization that used an Alliance city as it's capital. She gave them the option of leaving as well lest you forget. It's called the purge because she removed them, not the massacre of Dalaran.
    Let's say you're a native American who can magically live for thousands of years. Some new people, let's call them "hoomons" for the sake of narrative, most into your area. You teach them your people's magic and work together to build a city, living together peacefully for thousands of years. One moment of your kind does something bad, so the "hoomon" leader decides that none of you can be trusted and demands that all native Americans must leave the city they help build that only exists because of them or be locked up, killing those who resists. So now you have this person who is infant by your race's terms telling you to leave the city you've lived in for centuries.

    Kinda boggles me that the natives didn't insist that at least half the ruling council consist of their people to fight for their rights, but I guess that's what they get for being too trusting. Let's set aside for the moment that the city sat aside and let one of their ruling council members be sentenced to death on bogus charges once before.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2020-10-26 at 05:55 AM.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  15. #135
    Ever since Cataclysm the Horde have been unanimously pretty evil, yes. Blizzard for some reason can't stop making them evil - despite the fact they don't need to be. Garrosh didn't need to be the scapegoat villain, neither did Sylvanas but of course they had to. Hopefully post Shadowlands they stop doing this and don't also just put that onto the Alliance.

    You can have villains without it being a faction war, christ.

  16. #136
    Herald of the Titans Klingers's Avatar
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    They're not textbook, moustache-twirling "evil", but in story terms they are the bad guys. They always strike first, always make questionable decisions with far-reaching negative consequences and generally are the only ones willing to blight, nuke or firebomb anything. They are generally in the wrong. Then they play the victim card.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  17. #137
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Personally, I'm not sure if any version of the Horde but the current post-BFA one was anything besides evil or morally inept.

    They were ignoring some blatant issues in their own cultures/societies just to keep the group together. Over time more and more "evil" has been pushed out as they essentially became more civilized. When an organization grows in funds, membership, and responsibilities then there is less wiggle room for anything that stagnates that progression. The stuff they did as a ragtag group of homeless races won't fly as an organized union. That's been proven with each new expansion since there is no longer an excuse to maintain their barbarism. The "bad" gets shed and replaced with softer elegant features (see Allied Races). The same happened to the Alliance when it reformed.
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  18. #138
    Actually "good" or "evil" were never defined by factions in Warcraft going all the way back to the RTS.
    All of the "good" or "evil" things were done within racial groups and not based on factions.
    The evil elves caused the destruction of the elf civilization and much of the planet many moons ago (typical Tolkien trope).
    The evil human Arthas became the Lich King and destroyed much of the Human civilization.
    The evil Eredar caused the destruction of Draenei civilization.
    Etc, etc, etc.

    Heck, the only outright "evil" faction was supposedly the Legion as the epitome of everything "bad" in the Azeroth universe.

    Factions in WOW never really implied any kind of "good" or "evil" as opposed more of a typical PVP territorial control kind of theme.
    In theory, the "alliance" would be considered the good guys only because it is the "good" parts of the elf, humans and draeinei that are part of it.
    On the Horde side, it is a bit murky because the Trolls have never been seen as "good" since their culture was wiped out years ago.
    Then you have the blood elves, who were also characterized as a remnant of the "evil" elves from long ago addicted to arcane.
    The Orcs who while no longer demonically possessed, are still contesting territory for their own survival, which is neither good or evil.
    And lastly of course you have the foresaken, who while technically not "evil" are still seen as an abomination and a "evil" presence regardless.


    Based on all of that, the tip of the scale of "evil" kind of always goes to the Horde because elements of them are not outright lore wise seen as "good". But most of that is because of the historic lore associated with the various races making up the faction.

    Unfortunately, Blizzard they have had to lean on the lore as a way for maintaining faction conflict and hence the dilemma.
    And Sylvanas is the epitome of this dilemma in trying to spur on faction conflict while somehow trying to maintain some "noble" cause at the same time for both sides. And for the most part it just doesn't work.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-10-26 at 01:10 PM.

  19. #139
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    The definition says the destruction of them. She didn't destroy them. Thanks.
    Do you not... do you not understand what destruction means...?

    You're either being obtuse to the point of ignorance or simply trolling at this point.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-10-27 at 02:44 AM. Reason: Received Infraction
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  20. #140
    Individual capability for terrifying things is high in the Horde and hard to remove completely, since the faction's foundation is so controversial, but there is a distinction between evil and anti-Alliance. The more peaceful approach the likes of Thrall and Baine push for isn't something the general populace really want in the end, they were happy to march on the night elves, including Saurfang himself who was otherwise so much for honor. Thrall left the position of Warchief to tend to the planet as a shaman, but he didn't want the position back once Garrosh was dealt with; like he was burnt out and frustrated, which I feel is supported by BFA cinematics. Saurfang also mused to Anduin the Horde was actually heir to WC1 & 2 era Horde, suggesting he too felt peaceful co-existence with the Alliance wasn't really what folk wanted.

    Regardless the Rebel-side still pushed for it and managed to win the day. Just not for their own merit; had Sylvanas not blurted out her true feelings about the Horde and its people it's likely the mak'gora would've simply ended in Saurfang's death, after which the Rebel/Alliance side would've disbanded or mounted a futile assault on Orgrimmar. The general populace stood with Sylvanas and was taken by complete surprise by her words. After all that's happened in BFA. Even then many remained openly defiant to the new regime and were imprisoned for it. Eye of N'zoth (or whatever) revealed there are also people who claim they support the new regime, but are actually still Loyalists at heart.

    Then there's the book, Shadows Rising. Collapsing it for spoilers.
    Spoiler: 
    Talanji's dissatisfaction with the Horde is well-founded, but she eventually eats humble pie and begrudgingly accepts she won't have her revenge, putting her peoples' well-being first by accepting the Horde as they are, unwillingness to attack the Proudmoores and all. The book also shows Rokhan and Gazlowe as unwilling to appease the Alliance too much, but they eventually go with the rest of the council's wish. Talanji is the highlight here, but even the smaller tidbits for the rest give a picture of the council not really being that pro-peace. In another thread I considered the council spineless, since I got the picture it's decisions are largely whipped by pro-peace Thrall, Baine and Lor'themar, but here's hoping the rest will challenge the status quo eventually.


    Now, atrocities during wartime aren't a nice tally on Horde's résumé, but as an entity I wouldn't call them evil so much as very opposed to the Alliance (and, frankly, bad at disciplining their worst offenders). If the Alliance was defeated there'd probably be more atrocities for the survivors, just as orcs were put into internment camps with shitty conditions. Maybe not as an official doctrine, but individuals are sure to abuse their power position same as Blackmoore back in the day. Regardless, in general the Horde seems able to live and co-exist with inhabitants of Azeroth. Orcs and blood elves are quite friendly with each other nowadays, which is incredible considering they fought on opposite sides in a bitter war in the past. With the abundance of bigger threats to fight against even the more war-inclined should have their sights on something other than bullying the downtrodden.
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