WOW- Now pay to win?

[Raelbo]

Even Method, a guild who has had many world firsts, has bought BOE and Corruptions with gold/money. Check Gallywix expose vidoes and tweets for all the juice on how much money they spent on world firsts.

Just because they spent money to help them win doesn't make the game pay-to-win.

While it's tempting to conclude that because they put money in one end and landed up with BoE equipment at the other end, that they paid money in exchange for equipment, it's actually a flawed viewpoint that lacks insight into the mechanisms at play. And just because pay-to-win is a mechanism that achieves that outcome, that doesn't mean that it's the only mechanism capable of achieving the outcome.

Method did not spend the money to buy equipment and corruptions - because neither Blizzard (through the shop) or the game (through a vendor) sells those things. Other players sell those things. And even the gold that you acquire with a token isn't give to you by the game, it's acquired from other players. They spent their money to buy gold that other players had obtained through time and effort. So a more accurate way of looking at this is that money allows you to buy another player's time and effort. And even without tokens, a guild like Method that has corporate sponsorship can "sponsor" other players to play for them and farm for gold.

The whole point of an MMO is to work with other players to achieve more than you can achieve alone. And by extension, the more players you can get to help you to achieve whatever it is you're trying to do, the bigger the advantage. Being able to use forces outside of the game to do this is part of the MMO experience. Streamers do it all the time by using their celebrity status to influence people. Some players are just charismatic and good and getting others to help them. And yes, sometimes players pay other players to do it. But the important thing here is that even if you're paying other players, your success is still predicated on other players do whatever it is that gets you the advantage. It's still people playing the game that results in the 'win'.

Pay-to-win, on the other hand, has nothing to do with other players. It's entirely about a transaction between a player and the game that results in a strong advantage that is practically mandatory if you want to do well in the game.

Method did not gain their advantage of having great BoE's by paying Blizzard to give it to them. They gained their advantage by enlisting the aid (often anonymously) of a great number of players to farm the gold needed to pay other players who had obtained (also through playing) good BoE corrupted items.

In principle this is no different to a football (soccer) club spending shit loads of money to recruit the best players, hire the best coaches and managers, get access to the best facilities and experts etc etc etc. It's not paying to win, it's simply paying to get the best team you can, and then the best team winning. Paying-to-win would be like bribery of referees or opposition. Or maybe paying a big bunch of cash and being given a 10-0 advantage before the first kick.

[Cæli]

you don't win if you don't have the skill, and buying an item for gold/money don't give you skill.
to win you need to be top of the ladder on warcraftlogs/checkpvp
yeah no, there's no p2w in wow.
"pay to save time" rather.

[ro9ue]

Asking if a game is either P2W or not P2W is a flawed question to ask in the first place.

There's a spectrum. There would be one side having 0 interaction with a cash shop, everything earned in game stays in game and the economy isn't polluted by outside systems. Which is almost never the case given the IRL market for digital goods - even if the company who runs the game is against 3rd party currency vendors.

Then you get like... the company directly sells you a legendary item. I don't think that really exists outside of really shitty mobile games.

The truth is Blizzard sanctions in game gold buying with RL money and that gold can be used to buy some of the best gear available. You can't fully gear this way, and it's an indirect P2W system, but Method for example clearly used RL money to get an edge on their competition.

It's not so cut and dry.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Just because they spent money to help them win doesn't make the game pay-to-win.

While it's tempting to conclude that because they put money in one end and landed up with BoE equipment at the other end, that they paid money in exchange for equipment, it's actually a flawed viewpoint that lacks insight into the mechanisms at play. And just because pay-to-win is a mechanism that achieves that outcome, that doesn't mean that it's the only mechanism capable of achieving the outcome.

Method did not spend the money to buy equipment and corruptions - because neither Blizzard (through the shop) or the game (through a vendor) sells those things. Other players sell those things. And even the gold that you acquire with a token isn't give to you by the game, it's acquired from other players. They spent their money to buy gold that other players had obtained through time and effort. So a more accurate way of looking at this is that money allows you to buy another player's time and effort. And even without tokens, a guild like Method that has corporate sponsorship can "sponsor" other players to play for them and farm for gold.

The whole point of an MMO is to work with other players to achieve more than you can achieve alone. And by extension, the more players you can get to help you to achieve whatever it is you're trying to do, the bigger the advantage. Being able to use forces outside of the game to do this is part of the MMO experience. Streamers do it all the time by using their celebrity status to influence people. Some players are just charismatic and good and getting others to help them. And yes, sometimes players pay other players to do it. But the important thing here is that even if you're paying other players, your success is still predicated on other players do whatever it is that gets you the advantage. It's still people playing the game that results in the 'win'.

Pay-to-win, on the other hand, has nothing to do with other players. It's entirely about a transaction between a player and the game that results in a strong advantage that is practically mandatory if you want to do well in the game.

Method did not gain their advantage of having great BoE's by paying Blizzard to give it to them. They gained their advantage by enlisting the aid (often anonymously) of a great number of players to farm the gold needed to pay other players who had obtained (also through playing) good BoE corrupted items.

In principle this is no different to a football (soccer) club spending shit loads of money to recruit the best players, hire the best coaches and managers, get access to the best facilities and experts etc etc etc. It's not paying to win, it's simply paying to get the best team you can, and then the best team winning. Paying-to-win would be like bribery of referees or opposition. Or maybe paying a big bunch of cash and being given a 10-0 advantage before the first kick.

I respect the effort you put into this post.

The disagreement we're having is apparently over the term "pay 2 win".

You are describing is as a single transaction between A (Player) and B (Blizzard) which results in mythic gear and gladiator.
While I am describing it as A (Player) giving B (Blizzard) money to get gold, which players want in return for mythic gear and gladiator.

You can jump hoops around it and disagree over the term pay 2 win as much as you want. I accept that "technically" it's not p2w.

At the end of the day, I spend 8-10 hours every week raiding in a top 100 guild to get mythic gear, then spend countless hours grinding arena for 2400+ rating, while my friend comes and swipes his credit card and gets the same achievements I do, the same rating I do, same titles, mounts, and practically the same outcome with little to no effort.

AND Blizzard is OK with that.

[ymirsson]

At the end of the day, I spend 8-10 hours every week raiding in a top 100 guild to get mythic gear, then spend countless hours grinding arena for 2400+ rating, while my friend comes and swipes his credit card and gets the same achievements I do, the same rating I do, same titles, mounts, and practically the same outcome with little to no effort.

AND Blizzard is OK with that.

And what would be different if WoW token were not a thing? People still would get boosted in raids and arenas.

[niztheundead87]

its not like we have this thread every other month , wow is not p2w , get over it. stop watching too much asmonturd

[rhorle]

At the end of the day, I spend 8-10 hours every week raiding in a top 100 guild to get mythic gear, then spend countless hours grinding arena for 2400+ rating, while my friend comes and swipes his credit card and gets the same achievements I do, the same rating I do, same titles, mounts, and practically the same outcome with little to no effort. AND Blizzard is OK with that.

They also were okay with those things prior to the token being implemented. Not the selling of gold but players being carried to X reward. It still doesn't mean it is pay to win just because players can get carried with or with out paying real money. Because gold and players providing a service is what enables it and not the money being paid. If you could cash out battle.net balance for real money it would be a different story.

[rhorle]

So how would you describe the situation before the tokens, when you could buy gold with real money, just from shady sources? Which Blizzard wasn't ok with? Is it still p2w, just Blizzard are still scumbags, because they want all money from their own product for themselves? And I am even leaving the side effect that it made the game / your account also safer out.

Why do people love to bring up things that were against the rules as if it proves anything? Something being done legally and something being done illegally are two very different things.

[Kauko]

Wow was p2w since the release... So after 16years, GET OVER IT!

[ymirsson]

Why do people love to bring up things that were against the rules as if it proves anything? Something being done legally and something being done illegally are two very different things.

Illegal P2W is better then legal?

[Sansnom]

Not trying to prove anything, I wonder what people think of the results of different actions. Am I not allowed to ask that?

Also there was a third variation: Boosts bought with gold that was gotten 100% in game.

Do people think only the token made WoW p2w? That was what I was trying to find out.

I have been asking similar questions. One answer I got was buying gold before token was not P2W. Buying it after is because Blizzard has condone it. It does not matter how the gold was spend, it was how the gold was acquired.

So if you managed to get a different answer, please post it here.

[tommyhil622]

Imo those half a million gold runs mythics/mounts is getting out of hand. That sort of stuff should be against ToS.

[rhorle]

Illegal P2W is better then legal?

No but cheating will happen regardless. Just because people find ways to cheat doesn't have an impact on the game being pay to win because it is clearly against the terms of service. If we use that definition for pay to win then pretty much any game is pay to win because most online games have some kind of third party "for money" scheme going on.

- - - Updated - - -

Not trying to prove anything, I wonder what people think of the results of different actions. Am I not allowed to ask that?

You can do whatever you want that doesn't mean it will have relevance to anything being discussed though. Just because people do something against the rules doesn't impact something that is allowed within the rules. Just because people find ways to cheat or break the rules doesn't make that part of the game unless it is officially sanctioned in which case it isn't "cheating".

Just like all those old single player games that had cheat codes. It wasn't really cheating because it was enabled by the developers themselves even it wasn't part of the standard mode of game play.

[rhorle]

The funny part is where it "wasn't really cheating", yet those things were called "cheat" codes

It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created. There is a reason why games that do no include things like that have to use third party trainers to enable cheating. At some point devs intend people to use those cheat codes so it isn't cheating it is just a "new game mode".

[ymirsson]

It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created.

But the developer usually created every command. Even the ones that are not intended for the normal user. The developer created the environment and commands to circumvent restrictions, the commands for "clever uses of game mechanics".

Where is the line?

[rhorle]

But the developer usually created every command. Even the ones that are not intended for the normal user. The developer created the environment and commands to circumvent restrictions, the commands for "clever uses of game mechanics". Where is the line?

Right. That is what I said. Where is the confusion about a "line"?

If a friend pays me $20 to do some stuff in Pokemon Sword and Shield does that mean the game is now pay to win? Because that is the argument you and others keep trying to make when bringing up third party sales. That if anyone pays someone to do something in a game, even if not official, then the game is labeled pay to win.

[ymirsson]

Right. That is what I said. Where is the confusion about a "line"?

So why do people get suspended for "clever use of game mechanics"? Why do normal WoW players have no access to admin commands?

[rhorle]

So why do people get suspended for "clever use of game mechanics"? Why do normal WoW players have no access to admin commands?

Because "clever use of game mechanics" is against the Blizzard terms of service. Why is that even a question. Normal WoW players don't have access to admin commands because it isn't designed for them to have access. What exactly is the point you are working at with these silly questions?

[ymirsson]

Because "clever use of game mechanics" is against the Blizzard terms of service. Why is that even a question. Normal WoW players don't have access to admin commands because it isn't designed for them to have access. What exactly is the point you are working at with these silly questions?

You said and i quote "It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created."

[rhorle]

You said and i quote "It isn't cheating to use the commands the game developers created."

Yes. I haven't disputed that I said that. Again what is your point? How does this relate to third party sellers of gold and classifying a game pay to win? Are you still going to claim that any RMT makes a game pay to win? If my friend gives me a $20 to catch some Pokemon in Sword and Shield does that mean that we can call the latest Pokemon game Pay to Win?