Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[mickybrighteyes]

If any of the night/high/blood elfs took part in what she was doing your have a point but none of them did.

And I agree condemning orcs who had nothing to do with it would be silly but the horde isn’t lacking orcs who did take part so it’s fair game to blame a sizeable portion of them though we don’t have raw numbers or a % just that older orcs didn’t side with garrosh while younger orcs did and the majority of orcs didn’t side with garrosh.

I think you'll need something more to back up on that. How do we know the majority of the orcs that went off on draenor managed to survive their infighting on draenor, then the multiple wars with humans, AND then multiple civil wars that would have purged much of the society anyways...

[VinceVega]

I don't think the horde is evil...
Volutile. And kinda nonsensical. Tauren in the horde don't make any sense anymore. Goblins... both of them got saved by the horde. But heavens, nothing the last warchiefs did brings them anything but death and more death and they still support this bullshit.
Granted with the new council it is the first time the horde moves away from a totalitarian regime.

Also for the whole old horde new horde stuff... this would be like germany still using the swastika and calling Berlin Hitlerado or Wilhelmstadt, saying we did not have anything to do with what happend 75 years ago. We just honour the poeple before. It IS weird. But meh. Who cares. Most people playing wow have no idea about old lore before wow. So this is not much.

But weighing Taurajo/Dalaran against Theramore/Darnassus is just ridicioulus.

tldr: I don't think the horde is mustach twirling evil, but leans more in that direction. More Sadists and stuff than the alliance. And there os often the feeling when questign as horde that in one moment you save children and you are the most bestest of the altruists in the world and a moment later you run aroudn exterminating a village in ashenvale for no reason and burning a complete race of people but you are totaly ok with that and everyone else to except one or two faction leader sometimes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Saying that there are orcs still fighting for the Horde as soldiers that also took part in the Path of Glory is nothing but conjecture especially since it happened over 30 years ago in lore and orcs don't really have a long life expectancy like other races do.

It’s an absolute fact that orcs that took part we’re still fighting as soldiers/commanders up until bfa. Drek thar was one of the first warlocks and he was leading the fighting in AV until recently. saurfang was a troop back then and he’s been leading horde forces till bfa. While Eitrigg wasn’t a fighter he was an adviser to garrosh in cata or Atleast thrall told garrosh to use him as one.

Then we have the warsong clan who were directly lead by grom of all people and then stuck around as part of the horde after his death.

While we might not have actually numbers it’s a cold hard fact that orcs that took part were still part of the fighting force of the orcs and likely a billion other non fighting roles up to atleast bfa.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you'll need something more to back up on that. How do we know the majority of the orcs that went off on draenor managed to survive their infighting on draenor, then the multiple wars with humans, AND then multiple civil wars that would have purged much of the society anyways...

See above.

[mickybrighteyes]

Meanwhile the current Horde has the exact same core as the "old" one.

Lack of fel taint (nvm how inducing an apparent permanent blood lust 'enraged' state actually affects one's actions...) far fewer warlocks running things... no stolen bodies with ripped out souls replaced with said warlocks.... are you sure this is "the same"?

Why do you think that they named their capital Orgrimmar if they are nothing like the old Horde?

Prolly the same reason the alliance has a stronghold named after Alleria?

Show me instances of current Alliance worshiping Garithos.[

This is a very overly specific reason to back any claim you might have. You also seem to imply that having heroes is the same as worshipping which is also questionable...

And Dalaran is neutral by the way

Yeah, it got reduced to a shell of it's former self when it backed out of the alliance in the third war after losing Antonidas and getting wrecked by a legion army... it was one of the Seven Kingdoms of the alliance of lordaeron. as was Gilneas, Alterac, Stromguard, Stormwind, Kul tiras, and of course Lordaeron... The Seven Human Kingdoms of the Alliance. It's funny how many stayed in the alliance following the third war.

Probably the reason why the whole Garithos thing was never brought by WoW again.
Garithos forces never made it to Theramore as far as i know. Please share some source about that.

Someone retconned the event of Garithos' forces being killed, to the man, in lordaeron when Sylvanas betrayed him after using him to fight off scourge forces. Cycle of Hatred puts a mane named Kristoph in Theramore post founding of Orgrimmar and he was there to tell Garithos "hey... that banshee is super sus don't trust them" (basically) and then he buggered off somewhere between Sylvanas meeting Garithos and well... the rest of the third war events.

A minor alteration to a pointless quest but the implication that someone under Garithos' command survived AND made it far as fuck away from the scene does beg some question.

- - - Updated - - -

It’s an absolute fact that orcs that took part we’re still fighting as soldiers/commanders up until bfa. Drek thar was one of the first warlocks and he was leading the fighting in AV until recently. saurfang was a troop back then and he’s been leading horde forces till bfa. While Eitrigg wasn’t a fighter he was an adviser to garrosh in cata or Atleast thrall told garrosh to use him as one.

Then we have the warsong clan who were directly lead by grom of all people and then stuck around as part of the horde after his death.

While we might not have actually numbers it’s a cold hard fact that orcs that took part were still part of the fighting force of the orcs and likely a billion other non fighting roles up to atleast bfa.

You can prove that some are still around but I think you're still not able to prove that they're not lacking.

Honestly though these discussions only end up going into every race with a history getting to inherit their ancestor's sins... assuming the group's history is written currently. Not every race has the privilege of getting their backstory dragged through the mud so another group gets their tragic backstory.

[bowlink]

Saying that there are orcs still fighting for the Horde as soldiers that also took part in the Path of Glory is nothing but conjecture especially since it happened over 30 years ago in lore and orcs don't really have a long life expectancy like other races do.

Do know that classic wow was 10 to 15 years after the opening of the dark portal as anduin was 10 when wow started and hes 20 now?

So i wouldn't conjecture that old horde members were still active come wow.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You can prove that some are still around but I think you're still not able to prove that they're not lacking.

Honestly though these discussions only end up going into every race with a history getting to inherit their ancestor's sins... assuming the group's history is written currently. Not every race has the privilege of getting their backstory dragged through the mud so another group gets their tragic backstory.

We have multiple named npcs a whole clan and blizzard own words on the break down of garrosh supporters and how the old orcs weren’t looking to repeat there past, I’d say all that together is enough qualify as not lacking.

As to ancestors they aren’t relevant at all we’re talking about living breathing orcs who have been in the new horde since WC3 not generations ago.

[TheRevenantHero]

Do know that classic wow was 10 to 15 years after the opening of the dark portal as anduin was 10 when wow started and hes 20 now?

So i wouldn't conjecture that old horde members were still active come wow.

Currently, in lore, it's been around 33 years since the opening of the Dark Portal. Orcs mature around 15 iirc which would make the youngest orc from that time period pushing 50 right now.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Do know that classic wow was 10 to 15 years after the opening of the dark portal as anduin was 10 when wow started and hes 20 now?

So i wouldn't conjecture that old horde members were still active come wow.

It becomes even sillier when you factor in that drek thar was an elder shaman around the forging of the horde like 8 years before they opened the portal and was active until recently as a commander.

Orcs at combat ready at like 14-16 or something so there would be a crap ton of orcs still in fighting ages around the time of the path of glory who would be way younger then drek thar now.

[mickybrighteyes]

Do know that classic wow was 10 to 15 years after the opening of the dark portal as anduin was 10 when wow started and hes 20 now?

So i wouldn't conjecture that old horde members were still active come wow.

the third war (warcraft 3) over 20 years after the opening the dark portal.. wasnt it?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Currently, in lore, it's been around 33 years since the opening of the Dark Portal. Orcs mature around 15 iirc which would make the youngest orc from that time period pushing 50 right now.

Drek thar was an elder shaman 8 or so years before the portal opened and was still fighting until let’s say cata, if he is any thing to go by 50 isn't beyond fighting age Or even close.

[schwank05]

Don't get me wrong, I know during WCI & II the Horde were the bad guys. Since Vanilla however the Horde were depicted as a group of exiles banding together to survive (something I really liked!). Beyond PvP the conflict was mostly border disputes until Cataclysm. Granted Garrosh became a War Criminal but he was cast out by the Horde. Now obviously Sylvanas is evil and I agree Blizzard did a terrible job regarding the Horde throughout BfA, BUT do people genuinely believe that the Horde were always evil?

Personally I play both factions so naturally have seen the good, the bad and the ugly side from both sides.

No, but that is the problem I wanted to play the Monster Faction to be the Evil Faction and I guess I romanticized the thought of being evil as I am on the #ForsakenMasterRace bandwagon, I miss the good Ol days of plague bombing populations and creating new members of the Race. Now its all lame and prettied up, I want my Rotting Fumbling undead horde to destroy all other Races.

[TheRevenantHero]

Drek thar was an elder shaman 8 or so years before the portal opened and was still fighting until let’s say cata, if he is any thing to go by 50 isn't beyond fighting age Or even close.

I'm not saying they don't exist but there are so few of them that you can't really count it. The point I'm trying to make is that the new Horde shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the old Horde. Because otherwise, we're gonna have to bring up the atrocities of the humans, the dwarves, the quel'dorei, and the kaldorei and count it against the current Alliance.

[mickybrighteyes]

We have multiple named npcs a whole clan and blizzard own words on the break down of garrosh supporters and how the old orcs weren’t looking to repeat there past, I’d say all that together is enough qualify as not lacking.

As to ancestors they aren’t relevant at all we’re talking about living breathing orcs who have been in the new horde since WC3 not generations ago.

more that we have whole organizations rising and falling in the current lore that is in a weird stagnate state if not specifically mentioned. And discussing events that just glomp everyone by race. Nevermind that we're also largely just falling back on names of groups and token figures to then argue everyone around them is also [insert]. The fact that many rise up to follow Garrosh isn't exactly proof that the newer horde is "just like the old horde" but that people like Garrosh. I'd say that might also easily be the Garrosh in his storyline at the time was a successful war hero (in a war he did not start mind you) and was given the blessing by the single most respected horde figure in existence at the time.... so yeah, Garrosh had a following when we went into Cataclysm.

Now we're seeing pressence of 'younger' orcs also in the same time period within orgrimmar so why is it weird to assume the same among other orc groups (like the Frostwolves who secluded themselves in their mountains after the third war). A major problem here is that we've thinned the horde out canonically as a group multiple times with civil wars while also thinning them out with infighting and other wars over the course of 3 and a half decades prior. We might only have the token name drops like Saurfang and Eitrigg left as active orcs going into BFA.

- - - Updated - - -

Drek thar was an elder shaman 8 or so years before the portal opened and was still fighting until let’s say cata, if he is any thing to go by 50 isn't beyond fighting age Or even close.

by Cata, Drek'thar was in a wheel chair being pushed around by a junior orc.

edit: well image link doesn't seem to work =/ But Cata questlines in Hillsbrad have the horde player go up to chat with the frostwolves and Drek'thar gets wheeled out by Galv to basically tell off the warlord and say he wouldn't fight for Sylvanas or something

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm not saying they don't exist but there are so few of them that you can't really count it.

There is nothing backing this up a few different places giving examples of other wise.

The point I'm trying to make is that the new Horde shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the old Horde. Because otherwise, we're gonna have to bring up the atrocities of the humans, the dwarves, the quel'dorei, and the kaldorei and count it against the current Alliance.

You can bring up the atrocities of still living humans dwarves and elfs who are part of the current alliance but there isn’t much to actually bring up in comparison.

[TheRevenantHero]

There is nothing backing this up a few different places giving examples of other wise.

You can bring up the atrocities of still living humans dwarves and elfs who are part of the current alliance but there isn’t much to actually bring up.

All I'm saying is that they'd be a pretty small minority and shouldn't count. Especially since most of the ones that are still alive feel terrible about the Path of Glory.

there's enough to bring up in current lore. It's not a pissing contest. Saying the current Horde has done worse doesn't suddenly make the Alliance's hands clean. Also, elves are a long lived race so it absolutely is possible that there are elves still alive that were around for the bad shit their race did in the past.

[mickybrighteyes]

You can bring up the atrocities of still living humans dwarves and elfs who are part of the current alliance but there isn’t much to actually bring up in comparison.

Not really... cause most of it is handwaved away somehow. No one cares about how Velen in his prohpetic visions lead the Draenei and subsequently Kil'jaeden to Draenor

And likewise we won't really discuss how the cypher of damnation was eventually used to fight back against the forces that ran through the dark portal to take the fight against the horde back through to draenor.

More recent editions just get lost and glossed over because most people don't care (despite caring very much when it seems to be directed at night elves or worgen)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

more that we have whole organizations rising and falling in the current lore that is in a weird stagnate state if not specifically mentioned. And discussing events that just glomp everyone by race. Nevermind that we're also largely just falling back on names of groups and token figures to then argue everyone around them is also [insert]. The fact that many rise up to follow Garrosh isn't exactly proof that the newer horde is "just like the old horde" but that people like Garrosh. I'd say that might also easily be the Garrosh in his storyline at the time was a successful war hero (in a war he did not start mind you) and was given the blessing by the single most respected horde figure in existence at the time.... so yeah, Garrosh had a following when we went into Cataclysm.

Now we're seeing pressence of 'younger' orcs also in the same time period within orgrimmar so why is it weird to assume the same among other orc groups (like the Frostwolves who secluded themselves in their mountains after the third war). A major problem here is that we've thinned the horde out canonically as a group multiple times with civil wars while also thinning them out with infighting and other wars over the course of 3 and a half decades prior. We might only have the token name drops like Saurfang and Eitrigg left as active orcs going into BFA.

ya I agree the new horde isn’t like the old horde but that’s mostly due to the older orcs rejecting a return to form in mop and not siding with garrosh. The horde now has a very active link to the horde of old with old orcs and that link is one of the major things that has stopped the horde from reverting back to how it was before thrall.

by Cata, Drek'thar was in a wheel chair being pushed around by a junior orc.

image

and by junior orc i apparently meant Galv

Ya and he’s likely around 80-90 and was still fighting from classic-wrath so orcs can still be active fighters way past the age young orcs who took part in the path of glory would be.

[Dancaris]

There is nothing backing this up a few different places giving examples of other wise.

You can bring up the atrocities of still living humans dwarves and elfs who are part of the current alliance but there isn’t much to actually bring up in comparison.

Night elf and draenei count? Genn to let gilnean die outside wall?
Malfurion to exile highborne to die?
or Varian with Undersity?
Dark iron that summon ragnaros?
Kul-tirans with that Daelin shit?
Oh, i forgot. Alliance cant be blamed.

[Aresk]

This thread's been active today...

With respect to the Horde, we have an unbroken line of warchiefs up through Sylvanas. Blackhand was the first, who was ousted by Doomhammer, the second Warchief. Doomhammer gave the mantle to Thrall. Thrall passed it to Garrosh. Garrosh was ousted by Vol'jin. Vol'jin passed it to Sylvanas. Until the end of BfA, the Horde can trace its lineage back to Blackhand. It has changed culturally a great deal since then, but I would still attribute it its faults.

Similarly, the Alliance has endured since WC2. While only Stormwind (formerly the nation of Azeroth) and Khaz'modan initially persevered, we still see the other nations rejoining. If there is any doubt, one need only look to TBC: all of the old WC2 Alliance dwellings are immediately part of the Alliance, with the Sons of Lothar all rejoining the Alliance ranks save Khadgar, who remained neutral.

With respect to laying blame on the Alliance/Horde for actions their members did before joining the organizations, I personally don't see the usefulness in that line of logic. Azshara is responsible for the first Legion invasion, so the night elves (and ergo nightborne and high elves and blood elves) should be responsible, meaning the Horde and Alliance should be responsible, when both have fought to stop her? It doesn't make sense. Similarly, Thoradin's war on the trolls predates the Alliance, so I wouldn't hold it against the Alliance, but I would bring it up in discussing the damages that humans have done to the world.

Ultimately I think neither faction is evil, even attributing things like the Path of Glory to the Horde. It was an evil act, but I wouldn't label someone like Eitrigg or Saurfang evil because of their involvement, and I certainly wouldn't claim trolls, tauren, forsaken, goblins, et. al. were evil for allying with a race with such a history.

The deaths of those responsible don't matter. You can still condemn the actions of a dead man, just like Thrall's Horde condemned the actions of the old Horde.
On his part, the Alliance never condemned the actions of Garithos against the BE, never tried to put Genn on trials for abandoning his own allies during the Scourge invasion (or his attack against the Horde fleet at Stormheim). Hell, at least they should consider Terenas responsible for the fall of Lordaeron considering he didn't even try to arrest his son for the slaughter of Stratholme before his departure for Northtrend or after his return.

I'm not sure why Genn should be on trial for withdrawing from the Alliance between WC2 and WC3. With respect to Stormheim, I don't see why he'd be tried when Rodgers confirms in the intro that the attack on the Horde was an unofficial mission that they were given. They acted within their orders. The blame for that should fall on Anduin, IMO.

Garithos absolutely did kill several elves and planned to kill many more.

Can you provide your sources on this? Garithos was a racist, he basically left the elves to die as fodder, and he did imprison them with intent to execute them, but as far as I know, the only elves that died were actually killed by Dalaran agents during the escape from the prison. During the bonus mission in WC3, Garithos even goes so far as to tell his troops to ignore the elves and charge the portal (as much as that mission holds any lore value). I would love to hold him responsible for killing an elf, but I just haven't seen him do it.

1: The dwarves wiping out an entire tauren tribe.
2: Humans torturing Horde captives in the Southern Barrens.
3: Literally everything Archbishop Benedictus did.
4: Attacking goblin refugee ships because they had the audacity to be witnesses to the humans kidnapping Thrall.
5: Murdering Horde troops who were either surrendering or unarmed in the Jade Forest.

No. It wasn't. Attributing the Path of Glory to the Horde is ignorant. And how are you going to say all my examples aren't genocides? The trolls were literally driven to near extinction in Arathi and have been stated as incapable of recovering. The dwarves wiped out an ENTIRE TAUREN TRIBE. Garithos went on a campaign to murder every quel'dorei he came across because he hated elves. Also, Arthas had loyalists with him that were NOT mindless undead and carried out his genocide when attacking Quel'thalas. So once again, if you're going to attribute the Path of Glory to the Horde then the Alliance has actually committed far more genocides than the Horde.

6. The dwarves attempt to exterminate the Frostwolves so that they could dig for ore in Alterac.
7. The dwarves began excavating tauren sacred sites for relics.
8. The Kul'tiran assault on the Darkspear tribe on their home isles.
9. The massacre of orc villages on the coast of Durotan by Daelin and his troops.
10. The assault on the Forsaken encampment in Howling Fjord (while Horde, meanwhile, were happy to turn Alliance captives back to the Alliance, to boot!).
11. Gnomes despoiling the land of the taunka.

With respect to Arthas, however, I'm not sure how you can attribute the actions of the Scourge to the Alliance. Stratholme I would lay at the Alliance's feet (as well as the murder of mercenaries and unlawfully ignoring royal orders to pursue an unsanctioned war in Northrend), but Quel'thalas I would attribute to the Scourge.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All I'm saying is that they'd be a pretty small minority and shouldn't count. Especially since most of the ones that are still alive feel terrible about the Path of Glory.

there's enough to bring up in current lore. It's not a pissing contest. Saying the current Horde has done worse doesn't suddenly make the Alliance's hands clean. Also, elves are a long lived race so it absolutely is possible that there are elves still alive that were around for the bad shit their race did in the past.

True it’s incredibly likely that they are a vast minority at this point but I wouldn’t say they aren’t relevant to current lore when we just had an expan with a big focus on one of them being sad because of the things he and others did.

Also ya you could count stuff elfs did as they go way back but for the most part they haven’t done much other then like staghelm and The high/blood elfs being dicks to trolls.