The horde council is pathetic.

[Gann Stonespire]

Very little. to be honest.

He had virtually no story development all through the WoW game after Orgrimmar was founded. this also means that there was nothing to harm his initial image in the lore as well...

He fought at Mountain Hyjal and defended against Kul'tiras invasion. He also showed he was willing to fight the Alliance if necessary unlike his successor.

At the start of WOW, he united all the tauren tribes.

[Thelxi]

I very much agree with the OP. Seeing the war campaign end with horde leaders seeking to work together with alliance and wondering out loud what this war was all about in the first place disgusted me. I say beg Sylvanus to come back as warchief and torture some sense into green jesus.

[ThatsOurEric]

You mean the one that got his kid squashed because he was using it as baby armor?

That's not at all what happened and you know it.

[Maxilian]

But most of those character have shown to be... lacking as leaders.

Ellisande could not see another way to deal with the Legion but join them.

Rastakhan was blind to the enemies that were on his side.

Jindo was way too power hungry and literally tried to chew more than what he could.

Sark Ragetotem would literally be the new BC Lorthemar, or as popularly called BOB.

Grommash has shown to never been a good leader, though he's a good commander.

Sylvanas... well... we kind of deal with that not long ago.

[Ardenaso]

Very little. to be honest.

He had virtually no story development all through the WoW game after Orgrimmar was founded. this also means that there was nothing to harm his initial image in the lore as well...

he also helped vouch for the Forsaken, if any

[Verdugo]

That's not at all what happened and you know it.

So tell me, what happened to it? As a bonus, tell me what he did to that other kid before he went to alt-draenor to snort some grounded sun crystals.

[bowlink]

Fun huh when your faction is displayed as incompitent smucks passing around the idiot ball. Now you know how alliance felt for the last decade

[tommyhil622]

I want the Horde to be led by a single charismatic leader that projects a sense of cunning, martial skill, and honor. Pre-World Shaman Thrall had that. Garrosh had it for Cata even if they had built in some good literary flaws in his personality. Vol'jin had it. There was a great storytelling opportunity for Sylvanas in the "step out of the shadows and lead" arc, but they scuttled that in a big damn hurry and her last, best moment as Warchief ended up really being her first, rallying the Horde at Vol'jin's funeral.

But also above that, a sense of... I don't want to politicize it, but 'nationalism' might be the best word. Or independence, or pride. What have you. Even Vol'jin, who stood in the center of a conquered city with the Alliance beside and surrounding him, said he spoke for the Horde. When the BFA cinematic crowd cheered for Sylvanas, it's because at the time she roared "for the Horde" it sounded like she actually meant that shit. I mean, it's Varian's big kiss off that he says "for the Alliance" (a phrase that isn't and never has been "a thing"), but it's apparently a moral fault for a leader of the Horde to actually be kinda about the Horde.

And it's that very failing that's why the Horde player base has and will continue to reject Baine (even though clearly from the Shadowlands plot design and BFA arc Blizz kinda intended to put him there), and why, unfortunately, they'd probably never accept Lor'themar because he was ready to leave over Garrosh's insanity.

Coming out of Shadowlands, by whatever subplot or whatever time jump, the Horde needs a Warchief again. Don't give me any of that shit that "it's not suitable in a time of peace" because... fuck it, listen to Varian's letter to Anduin from the Legion cinematic again. "to preserve (peace) you must be willing to fight".

Maybe they'll work their way back to Thrall because of the statute. I thought and still think it would be easy to build Rexxar up for (reluctantly) taking on that role, but they didn't really write anything for him after the early parts of the war campaign.

I'm not sure who they could elevate into that role but it would take some writing and some doing. Could even salvage Baine if they hardened his edge a little, gave him at least a trust-but-verify hesitation about the Alliance. Could maybe build Rok'han? Could still bring in Rexxar (gateway to Horde ogres, too)? Garona, I guess?

But the Horde needs a strong, credible leader to whom the Horde is their priority, even in the mosaic of a relatively peaceful Azeroth. You can't keep the faction system and write one faction as de facto vassal state to the other and not have it be dysfunctional and offputting to half your audience. They seemed to understand that up until MOP.

I hear ya man I think they waited too long to bring back Thrall. When i first saw the bfa cinematic where Suarfang says we don't get to hide, for a second i thought they were going to bring Thrall back as warchief. I thoughr in bfa they had a viable chance of doing so but it seems thats never going to happen. Rexxar imo isn't a leader, i can see him leading in battle or perhaps taking Suarfangs previous position. Atm i don't see anyone viable to take the role.

[mickybrighteyes]

Rastakhan was blind to the enemies that were on his side.

This one irks me to no end...

Lore has him ruling for centuries and dealing with shit that likely would get in his way, but we get involved and SUDDENLY he's incompetent and killed off with betrayal with all his 'loyal' advisors being in on it =/

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I hear ya man I think they waited too long to bring back Thrall. When i first saw the bfa cinematic where Suarfang says we don't get to hide, for a second i thought they were going to bring Thrall back as warchief. I thoughr in bfa they had a viable chance of doing so but it seems thats never going to happen. Rexxar imo isn't a leader, i can see him leading in battle or perhaps taking Suarfangs previous position. Atm i don't see anyone viable to take the role.

that's prolly because they lore has effectively killed or removed any would be options... anything that might have some merit winds up in the same pile they tossed Taylor in.

[Stormdash]

I hear ya man I think they waited too long to bring back Thrall. When i first saw the bfa cinematic where Suarfang says we don't get to hide, for a second i thought they were going to bring Thrall back as warchief. I thoughr in bfa they had a viable chance of doing so but it seems thats never going to happen. Rexxar imo isn't a leader, i can see him leading in battle or perhaps taking Suarfangs previous position. Atm i don't see anyone viable to take the role.

It's a problem that only can be fixed through writing an arc. Jaina, for instance, they bounce her back and forth like a character design rubber ball, but they generally always have an arc for the character from one end to the other. You can get Thrall back there. You could get Baine or Lor'themar back there. You could (more of a stretch) build Rok'han up to it. I don't think any of the Allied Race leaders are in the running because they lack... tenure, basically.

Rexxar reluctantly stepping into a role he's uncomfortable with to lead has some pretty established trope territory. It's basically the false-finish to Gladiator, for example. It's not perfect but at least they've never just stomped on his character to have to rebuild it from, they'd just have to put him front and center in the plot for a while.

[tommyhil622]

that's prolly because they lore has effectively killed or removed any would be options... anything that might have some merit winds up in the same pile they tossed Taylor in.

That is very true they pretty much closed the door on many of these characters in lieu of other storylines.

I'm personally annoyed with how Thrall has been treated. Just hate the direction of his character, I don't know what he is anymore. Any trace of his original character has been crushed beyond recognition. In MoP imo after Garosh was defeated, he should have taken the Mantel. I think a lot of people would have liked that but we got Vol'jin who i didn't mind but he didn't last long enough.

It's a problem that only can be fixed through writing an arc. Jaina, for instance, they bounce her back and forth like a character design rubber ball, but they generally always have an arc for the character from one end to the other. You can get Thrall back there. You could get Baine or Lor'themar back there. You could (more of a stretch) build Rok'han up to it. I don't think any of the Allied Race leaders are in the running because they lack... tenure, basically.

Rexxar reluctantly stepping into a role he's uncomfortable with to lead has some pretty established trope territory. It's basically the false-finish to Gladiator, for example. It's not perfect but at least they've never just stomped on his character to have to rebuild it from, they'd just have to put him front and center in the plot for a while.

Yea it can be fixed given enough time and focus and have a natural progression back into someone can be fit to lead again but will they do it? I'm not sure.

I like Rexxar but i just don't see him being a leader, he's a loner type, and a great warrior but he just doesn't have that pull to make it believable imo.

I can see for the foresable future they'll keep the council thing, we'll see. I personally wouldn't mind a build up for Lor'themar but he needs to stop being a regent...Make him King of Silvermoon, give him some accolades/victories and then you can have some path to the Warchief spot. Idk.

As for Baine, i don't see a good path for him. He's like the Malfurion of the horde. Constantly getting captured or worse and needing rescue. I can't even picture him as a figure of strength.

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I think Thrall and Lor'themar have the best shots but i feel like the storytellers are set on not having Thrall return like we once knew him. Not sure what their intent for Lor'Themar is yet.

[Grazrug]

But most of those character have shown to be... lacking as leaders.

Ellisande could not see another way to deal with the Legion but join them.

Rastakhan was blind to the enemies that were on his side.

Jindo was way too power hungry and literally tried to chew more than what he could.

Sark Ragetotem would literally be the new BC Lorthemar, or as popularly called BOB.

Grommash has shown to never been a good leader, though he's a good commander.

Sylvanas... well... we kind of deal with that not long ago.

Forgot the part of the Orcs. Bring all the AU warlords back and make them lead the Orcs. Anything is better then the weakling Thrall.

[Davaca]

Disagree with everyone except AU Gromm. That dude's cool.