Obsolete classic spell design on retail

[Pony Soldier]

You equip shield as a fury to cast shield block. You cast shield block because another warrior charged you and popped reck, so you counter it with that. Same for fire mage, how do you slow down melee player coming for you? You can't down player before they reach you.

The problem is that you don't realize that there are other activities than just dungeons and raids. In PVP both these spells are extremely useful and using them correctly makes a difference between an average and a good player.

I don't play PVP much but that all seems to be way too much in a situation like that. I seriously doubt talented pvp players use that tactic to take down one player.

[Gardoc]

The problem is the fact that as a Fury warrior I CAN'T use the shield abilities unless I equip a shield. So why is something not meant for my spec available for me to use in my spellbook? From a design standpoint it just doesn't make any sense. Why would someone as a fury warrior equip a shield? You might as well switch to prot in which case the shield abilities would then become relevant.

If you had a flathead screw and a flathead screwdriver to screw it in but the option to use a hammer would you use the hammer? Or would you just use the flathead screwdriver to get the job done? What about using a Phillips screwdriver as an extra option? I'm not the best at analogies but I hopefully you get my point.

You are a warrior, not fury. You are only specialized in fury combat, but you are still a warrior. And warriors use all kinds of weapons, shields included.

If I had a screw, I would use screwdriver. But than you get a nail and you pull out your hammer. Without the hammer you are screwed and can't do nothing.

[Scynfullone]

As a fury warrior though why would I need the shield abilities? Like I said in order to even use those abilities you need to have a shield equipped. Why would I equip a shield in fury spec?

As for Frostbolt it is a useless spell for fire and arcane mages. How exactly is Frostbolt of any use if I can down my enemies with my fire spells before they even reach me? Better yet what use is it in dungeons and raids as fire or arcane spec?

So I ask you, why do these classes, in these specs NEED these spells?

Well it's clear that you don't pvp, if you do I feel terrible for your team and envious of your enemies.

[Gardoc]

I don't play PVP much but that all seems to be way too much in a situation like that. I seriously doubt talented pvp players use that tactic to take down one player.

What does that even mean? That is not even a tactic, that is a basic reaction. Enemy melee popped big offensive cd, you counter that with your melee defensive ability. Or you are a mage and enemy melee is chasing you, so you slow him down with frostbolt and kite him.

[Pony Soldier]

You are a warrior, not fury. You are only specialized in fury combat, but you are still a warrior. And warriors use all kinds of weapons, shields included.

If I had a screw, I would use screwdriver. But than you get a nail and you pull out your hammer. Without the hammer you are screwed and can't do nothing.

That's not how the analogy works but ok.

- - - Updated - - -

What does that even mean? That is not even a tactic, that is a basic reaction. Enemy melee popped big offensive cd, you counter that with your melee defensive ability. Or you are a mage and enemy melee is chasing you, so you slow him down with frostbolt and kite him.

I don't know I just have a hard time seeing someone who knows how to pvp as their spec equipping shields and using two abilities just to take down one guy but whatever who am I to say? I don't PvP. Probably because of this very reason. It's ridiculous if you ask me. At this point what is the point of specs then?

[Gardoc]

That's not how the analogy works but ok.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't know I just have a hard time seeing someone who knows how to pvp as their spec equipping shields and using two abilities just to take down one guy but whatever who am I to say? I don't PvP. Probably because of this very reason. It's ridiculous if you ask me. At this point what is the point of specs then?

That is exactly how analogies work. You have a problem (screw or nail) and you have a tool to solve it (screwdriver, hammer). Remove one tool and you lose a way how to solve one of the problems.

I won't even comment on the PVP part, because you are just clueless. You can't see how talented PVP player would use his whole toolkit to defeat his opponent? Are you trolling at this point?

And specs = specializations. Are you telling me every warrior forgets how to use a shield just because he decided he will specialize in using two handed weapons?

[Dejavuproned]

To keep your carpenter analogy going, A good handyman keeps all his tools handy. Just because you don't need it now, doesn't mean it won't be useful later. Why throw that hammer out just because you don't need it now, or may not need it for a while. Thats basically what the pruning did.

We just want our tools back in our tool box. Let players decide how to use them.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk

[Scynfullone]

That's not how the analogy works but ok.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't know I just have a hard time seeing someone who knows how to pvp as their spec equipping shields and using two abilities just to take down one guy but whatever who am I to say? I don't PvP. Probably because of this very reason. It's ridiculous if you ask me. At this point what is the point of specs then?

What are you even talking about? I am trying to follow here with what you mean by using two abilities. You know that people use more that two abilities in even pve correct?

[Metrox]

After setting new talents on my toons, I don't think that the Nostalgia Spells are worth much to me.
1. Arcane Shot for my BM hunter ...... let me run scripts again so I can macro my jump turn/concussive shot/jump turn and kite like Vanilla
2. Crusader Aura ...... take out the speed buff baseline and let me turn on an aura so I can lead the pack in AV again.... and probably forget to ever turn it off
3. My enhancement shaman now has buffs on his MH and OH.....just like a rogue, but I also get lightning shield and earth shield and.....give me back all my totems that took addons to drop in the correct combinations
4. Hunters Mark....lol.... take off the damage buff and make it a pvp mark that any rogue can wipe...better yet, lets bring back Fairy Fire for druids! Now we can mark all those pesky rogues and.....wait for it....those stealthy panthers in Stranglethorn Vale as we ran down the road....sorry...back in Vanilla again.

This stuff is mostly just Fanboy gratification. The True Believers will swap a shield on their fury warrior....weave in arcane shot somewhere....hope someone in their party dies so Retribution Aura will kick in.....the Rose Tinted Goggles always work for them. Meanwhile, I just laugh, close the spell book, and wonder if this bloat helped create an unknown launch date. The Fanboys will be along to enlighten me on all the nuances of useless retro abilities and defend the Game Developers choices.

[ldev]

Oh wow boy, you sure as fuck suck at design.

Like, hunter's mark off gcd and increases crit chance? It's basically removed, but worse than actually removing it, as now you have to macro it into all your shots.

Like, you don't have any idea what to do with Primal Strike? It's so obvious - use it before Stormstrike is available, then replace it with Stormstrike...

Don't do game design.

[Cronovey]

I don't know I just have a hard time seeing someone who knows how to pvp as their spec equipping shields and using two abilities just to take down one guy but whatever who am I to say? I don't PvP. Probably because of this very reason. It's ridiculous if you ask me. At this point what is the point of specs then?

Except that's exactly what they do. Using something like your analogy, the enemy attacking you is a nail (large melee cooldown) and you're holding a screwdriver (dual wielding weapons).

Sure, you can smack the nail with the screwdriver a hundred times by grabbing the end and using the handle as a makeshift hammer, you'd eventually get the job done (kill them) or fail miserably (die in PvP combat). Alternatively, switch to your hammer (in this case, your shield) and use the right tool (Shield Block) for the right job quickly and easily.

Your inability to grasp that players will use every tool at their disposal to optimize their play doesn't mean that an ability has no place; it just may not have a place for you personally. Similarly, having Frostbolt back as a mage who isn't frost spec is incredibly useful. Having a ranged slowing ability is a useful tool for ANY spec, not just mages, for the ability to kite out a strong melee opponent as a squishy ranged one. This isn't even a PvP thing; it's a "don't let the big elite smash my fucking face in" thing for PvE content as well.

The point of specializations is just that; to specialize. Instead of being a Fury warrior, you're a Fury warrior instead which is how the game originally began when it was at its peak. You had the ability to do other things like equip a shield and taunt or use Shield Block in case of emergency, but you specialized in dual wielding combat. Consider it like being a doctor; you're specialized in a specific area (lungs, heart, brain) but you're still generally a doctor first and can do the basic tasks such as checking temperatures, blood pressure, writing prescriptions, etc that are basic tasks required of your overall profession but not your specialty. Same thing with a job like a mechanic; you may work on cars, the guy next to you may work on planes, and the third guy may be someone who works on robot dogs or something ridiculous. You're all mechanics and have basic knowledge on how to use your tools and how these complicated machines function, but you're each specialized in a specific field and have studied that one extensively while retaining basic knowledge of your overall field.

Make sense now?

[Keilvog]

Oh wow boy, you sure as fuck suck at design.

Like, hunter's mark off gcd and increases crit chance? It's basically removed, but worse than actually removing it, as now you have to macro it into all your shots.

Like, you don't have any idea what to do with Primal Strike? It's so obvious - use it before Stormstrike is available, then replace it with Stormstrike...

Don't do game design.

Thanks for your comment, regardless of the hostile attitude.

If you actually read what I wrote, the Hunter's Mark would be a damage CD - as in, something you use like every 2 mins for example. You wouldn't macro it to every shot.
The Primal Strike version you just mention is the one that is in game at the moment... for Enhancement shamans. Other spec shamans just have that ability hanging there. While I would understand that some abilities could just be there and be cool because they are part of the thematic, not this one.

Nevertheless, the original post's intention was to discuss abilities that feel off in game. The ideas I mentioned were just an extra, thought of based on my opinion. You can disagree, sure, but you don't have to be a dick about it.

[iosdeveloper]

off GCD Fireblast could make mages too fun

p.s. why do off-GCD spells feel so good?

[Eggroll]

There is nothing wrong with wanting the spells to do something instead of mostly nothing. And from your pov, I don't think it would bother you either, because you wouldn't care either way, since it's just a game.

Why would you think so?

Not everything in a game like WoW has to be super optimized. It doesn't suit a special situation? Don't use it there then. How about that?

Just because something isn't useful in competitive pvp or high end raiding doesn't mean it has to be pruned, that's what I'm saying. I think people who are engaging in these competitive activities can tell the difference between the two.

Also chess is a bad comparison because there's only ONE way to play it.

[Pony Soldier]

What are you even talking about? I am trying to follow here with what you mean by using two abilities. You know that people use more that two abilities in even pve correct?

The two abilities I was talking about were shield block and shield slam. Since those two abilities seem to be super important to some it came across to me as so important that everybody who PVPs as a fury or arms warriors learns to bring a shield and a 1 handed weapon with them and equip them to use the shield block/slam abilities and then unequip them to do their normal damaging spells to kill that one 12 year old that would be impossible to beat without using that strategy. Apparently it's just a natural reflex to some which I didn't know. I just assumed everybody just PVPed using their spec's abilities but apparently it's not enough to be a hardcore PVPer.

- - - Updated - - -

Except that's exactly what they do. Using something like your analogy, the enemy attacking you is a nail (large melee cooldown) and you're holding a screwdriver (dual wielding weapons).

Sure, you can smack the nail with the screwdriver a hundred times by grabbing the end and using the handle as a makeshift hammer, you'd eventually get the job done (kill them) or fail miserably (die in PvP combat). Alternatively, switch to your hammer (in this case, your shield) and use the right tool (Shield Block) for the right job quickly and easily.

Your inability to grasp that players will use every tool at their disposal to optimize their play doesn't mean that an ability has no place; it just may not have a place for you personally. Similarly, having Frostbolt back as a mage who isn't frost spec is incredibly useful. Having a ranged slowing ability is a useful tool for ANY spec, not just mages, for the ability to kite out a strong melee opponent as a squishy ranged one. This isn't even a PvP thing; it's a "don't let the big elite smash my fucking face in" thing for PvE content as well.

The point of specializations is just that; to specialize. Instead of being a Fury warrior, you're a Fury warrior instead which is how the game originally began when it was at its peak. You had the ability to do other things like equip a shield and taunt or use Shield Block in case of emergency, but you specialized in dual wielding combat. Consider it like being a doctor; you're specialized in a specific area (lungs, heart, brain) but you're still generally a doctor first and can do the basic tasks such as checking temperatures, blood pressure, writing prescriptions, etc that are basic tasks required of your overall profession but not your specialty. Same thing with a job like a mechanic; you may work on cars, the guy next to you may work on planes, and the third guy may be someone who works on robot dogs or something ridiculous. You're all mechanics and have basic knowledge on how to use your tools and how these complicated machines function, but you're each specialized in a specific field and have studied that one extensively while retaining basic knowledge of your overall field.

Make sense now?

Yeah makes sense from a PVP perspective I guess but I was originally talking from a PVE perspective before it got turned into a PVP discussion. My point still stands. Why as a warrior speced in Fury (to do damage) would I use shield block/slam in any situation whether it be questing, running a dungeon, or a raid? The answer is you wouldn't or hardly will. You seem to be talking as if we're back in Classic or Burning Crusade days where the game was a totally different game. Back then I could understand your argument but I'm talking about the game we play today. These days the game is designed in a way where all you need is your spec's abilities. If you can't handle things using just those abilities then you seriously need to learn your class and spec which doesn't take much to master. Elites these days are no big deal anymore either compared to back in the day. Group quests that require at least 2-3 people I can do by myself especially as a warrior or a mage and that's without a high ilvl.

I don't have an inability to grasp the idea that every player will use every tool they have to win in the game but we already had all the tools we needed. Most of these extra spells/abilities are just clutter in our spellbook and on our action bar at this point. Again the game is designed now so that you only need your spec's abilities. There should be no need for you to have to carry extra equipment just to use abilities you will probably never use...in a PVE situation. Even in PVP. You mean to tell me before we got these abilities back no one was able to PVP as a fury or arms warrior or even a fire or arcane mage because they didn't have shield block/slam or Frostbolt? It seemed to me there was still a pretty large PVP crowd despite the classes being "pruned" and I'm sure a lot of the warriors and mages were able to survive fine without those abilities.

[Maljinwo]

Fire blast is part of the Fire Mage rotation

[Alkizon]

Synical123
The shadow priests shadow form was made specifically for shadow priests and only allowed you to use shadow abilities while you are in form, in order to heal you had to drop form, heal then get back into form. This creates a fun dynamic as well as a nice skill ceiling for shadow priests who are really good at managing mana and swapping forms in and out.

Deferionus
An example I miss is warlock armor spells, fel armor and demon armor.

This is basis of dynamic choice, same were mages' shields(each has its own purpose)/buffs(control of incoming magic), there was sense to combine it with other circumstances, h.priests' chakras, which I have already recalled more than once, same with seals&judgments mechanics for paladins, totems/shields/weapon ench for shamans, traps/stings/aspects/"distance"-dynamic for hunters, rogues' poisons (I also don’t consider current version to be right, even just because they aren't applied to weapons, many recombinations are lost (it's unlawful restriction here) and reasonable imagination is damaged because of this, it has ceased to be poisons, but turned into "self buffs", this is fundamentally wrong, and here I'm talking not about reagents at all, but literally about choice and management, about dynamics)... and there're a lot of such privers.

I repeat, what they returned is good/ok, but it's negligible compared to all that they took away. Yes, direction is conditionally true with idea, but just idea isn't enough, its full-fledged implementation is required, problem is that it just didn't happen. You can't rip/insert small pieces of system without whole kit and expect that this will be enough and it will work, no no.

admeteora
One of the reasons I am having a hard time coming back to the game even though I really want to enjoy wow again is mostly because of the abilities they so desperately want to "fit in" the class gameplay and rotation.


I feel like classes were given a set of abilities before that fit a class style, lore and give each class a personality. The player would then figure out how to derive a rotation from the tools given. Now it feels like they don't design a class anymore, they design a rotation. Everything has to fit, it has to be used in a very designed and specific time. It's a mistake!

In my opinion, the game would so much more fun if the rotation felt less constrained and optimized. If the rotations were more up to the player to figure out between a set of abilities, talents, items, gear passives etc... More freedom

Where a player could come up with silly interactions and playstyles that they could make their own rather than this very obvious optimized pre determined gameplay that they give every class. I understand that there will always be an optimized way to play a class but i don't think devs should create this optimized rotation, they should focus on making a class or spec feel complete and let players design the optimized gameplay.

It might be just me on this one though

Quite right. As I said before:

ps. Main advantage of old trees wasn't diversity (although it was, global system allowed to have it, but why? and answer is further), but freedom to choose each/any/little step of progress/castimization elements without violating class priorities. In other words, what was previously part of choice is no longer one = it's spec's default package now, but what was previously available to class as such has become "choice element" and not even everything, but only stuff, that devs decided for this spec... imo, deal is wildly unfair.

whole set is needed, talents are often just morphs/changes/features of choice for specific development (or not development) direction of particular ability. Therefore, their unpruning now looks incoherent first of all exactly because they're just "pieces" of something big you don't have, which devs still don't want to return to you.

[mickybrighteyes]

As a fury warrior though why would I need the shield abilities?

This mindset is part of why the pruning was a bad idea in the first place. this mindset comes in from the perspective that one is already ignoring options to utilize in certain conditions. If you can't think of any reason you might not need "SPELL REFLECTION" (aka a shield ability that requires a shield to use) then I don't know what to say cause this is some very simple basic thinking going on.

Like I said in order to even use those abilities you need to have a shield equipped. Why would I equip a shield in fury spec?

Same reason warriors in older versions of the game would... you'd swap to the shield to get the effect and swap back when you can/need to. A shield, last I checked, still could be swapped like any weapon curing combat.

As for Frostbolt it is a useless spell for fire and arcane mages. How exactly is Frostbolt of any use if I can down my enemies with my fire spells before they even reach me? Better yet what use is it in dungeons and raids as fire or arcane spec?

>.> gonna be honest you're not wrong here, but as I just went to go farm AQ on a non-frost mage I was supremely disappointed that I HAD to respecc frost for a boss. So I'm kind of glad to have a non-consumable, non-weapon selecton based option for that fight

So I ask you, why do these classes, in these specs NEED these spells?

Now lets flip it... why do these effects need to be completely removed when you can simply not use them?

[Reinaerd]

Watching them add slam back as a spell to all war specs made me lol my fucking face off.

Rogues get Slice and Dice returned, a truly iconic spell that actually adds something to their toolkit.

They could have made Sweeping strikes a baseline spell for arms, and add flurry back to fury..

but nope

FUCKING SLAM.

Name is appropriate since thats what my face did into my keyboard when i saw the icon.

[Pony Soldier]

This mindset is part of why the pruning was a bad idea in the first place. this mindset comes in from the perspective that one is already ignoring options to utilize in certain conditions. If you can't think of any reason you might not need "SPELL REFLECTION" (aka a shield ability that requires a shield to use) then I don't know what to say cause this is some very simple basic thinking going on.

Same reason warriors in older versions of the game would... you'd swap to the shield to get the effect and swap back when you can/need to. A shield, last I checked, still could be swapped like any weapon curing combat.

>.> gonna be honest you're not wrong here, but as I just went to go farm AQ on a non-frost mage I was supremely disappointed that I HAD to respecc frost for a boss. So I'm kind of glad to have a non-consumable, non-weapon selecton based option for that fight

Now lets flip it... why do these effects need to be completely removed when you can simply not use them?

My whole point with the shield abilities as a fury or arms warrior is if we're playing a version of the game where you can kill people in PVP just as easily without it and do superior performance in PVE content by just using your spec's abilities why even use them? Why even bring them back?

If anything why not have these abilities change when I respec just like how the PVP abilities do when doing PVP content so that I can use them in fury without having to switch to a shield? Point is there are other ways to bring back more abilities. Shield Block can morph into Blade Parry or something. Just giving us the old abilities back without adding anything to them just feels like they're giving us a bunch of useless shit that we never needed since the game's overhaul back in WoD and it's only purpose is to fill up the action bar to make it feel like we're "back in the good ol' days".

Another good example for warriors too that I can't believe I forgot to mention is Slam. Why would a Fury warrior waste their rage resource on that instead of using Rampage? Again why do we have it?

Maybe it's just me but in an RPG where you specialize in a certain skill tree it should feel meaningful and important not like "ok I'm a fury warrior but also everything else because I'm a WARRIOR and I can use all the weapons and shields". At that point the specialization serves little to no purpose other than making you a FURY warrior in name and in name only. It has no identity and feels just like as you were before you even specialized in anything except you have a couple of new exclusive abilities. This is where I started to understand and like the pruning because the classes and their specs actually felt diverse from one another. Now they're back to feeling more of the same.

At the end of the of the day it is what it is, I can deal with it, it's not a huge deal breaker to me and doesn't really affect my gameplay but I'm just addressing the principle of it. Why have something you don't need and are not going to use? Just doesn't make sense to me is all.