Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Crispin]

So maybe they should have waited to get stab once before firing ? Though in honesty, they fired a little faster, I would have personnaly wait for 1 or 2 more meters before firing just to be sure to confirm intent.

OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.

[Specialka]

OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.

Those countries have usually better and longer training for Police Officers.

[Benggaul]

OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.

Just to forestall this, "shooting for the legs" isn't a thing outside of movies. It asks for a degree of accuracy in a tense situation that's rarely seen outside of fantasy. Joe Biden recently got in trouble for saying something similar. There are, however, MULTIPLE nonlethal ways of taking down an armed assailant at the disposal of the police in the US and it's up to the department to deploy them when needed...such as to help subdue a mentally ill person whom they KNOW is mentally ill because they've already made three visits to the house in the same day and spoken with the mother.

[Mekh]

Those countries have usually better and longer training for Police Officers.

There's literally nothing preventing better police training. Maybe they could use the money they spend on SWAT cars with armor against land mines.

[Endus]

Just to forestall this, "shooting for the legs" isn't a thing outside of movies. It asks for a degree of accuracy in a tense situation that's rarely seen outside of fantasy. Joe Biden recently got in trouble for saying something similar. There are, however, MULTIPLE nonlethal ways of taking down an armed assailant at the disposal of the police in the US and it's up to the department to deploy them when needed...such as to help subdue a mentally ill person whom they KNOW is mentally ill because they've already made three visits to the house in the same day and spoken with the mother.

And, to repeat; 911 was called to ask for mental health professionals and an ambulance, apparently out of concern Wallace would self-harm. There was never any statement that he was putting anyone at risk or threatening anyone.

Cops shouldn't have been sent to the home at all.

[Elegiac]

That's not how intent is defined, like, anywhere. I've pointed at family members with a knife I was using to chop veggies, while cooking, to point something I wanted them to grab me. Wasn't a lethal threat, obviously. Knives don't work by pointing them at people, unlike firearms.

I’d say he had the knife in a low ready stance, wouldn’t you Endus? Which according to the Rittenhouse stans is not threatening.

[Zan15]

OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.

Oh god, inc 2A folks talking about how this is the worst thing anyone can possibly do.....

[Crispin]

Just to forestall this, "shooting for the legs" isn't a thing outside of movies. It asks for a degree of accuracy in a tense situation that's rarely seen outside of fantasy. Joe Biden recently got in trouble for saying something similar. There are, however, MULTIPLE nonlethal ways of taking down an armed assailant at the disposal of the police in the US and it's up to the department to deploy them when needed...such as to help subdue a mentally ill person whom they KNOW is mentally ill because they've already made three visits to the house in the same day and spoken with the mother.

Hate to break it to you, but the police do warning shots -> leg shots in my country.

[Benggaul]

Hate to break it to you, but the police do warning shots -> leg shots in my country.

Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like the police in your country aren't that much better than in the US in that regard then.

Leg/arm shots are potentially equally as fatal as torso shots (shots in the arms/legs can easily hit major arteries and send bone shards out like shrapnel), are much harder to hit especially in the heat of a confrontation, are potentially more dangerous to bystanders and don't even guarantee that an assailant will stop. Shooting is always a last resort because there is always a chance of a fatality regardless of what part of the body you hit and regardless of your accuracy.

"Warning shots"--by which I assume you mean shots fired into the air or near the assailant as a warning--are also dangerous to bystanders because you have no idea where they will land/penetrate.

[Crispin]

Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like the police in your country aren't that much better than in the US in that regard then.

Leg/arm shots are potentially equally as fatal as torso shots (shots in the arms/legs can easily hit major arteries and send bone shards out like shrapnel), are much harder to hit especially in the heat of a confrontation, are potentially more dangerous to bystanders and don't even guarantee that an assailant will stop. Shooting is always a last resort because there is always a chance of a fatality regardless of what part of the body you hit and regardless of your accuracy.

"Warning shots"--by which I assume you mean shots fired into the air or near the assailant as a warning--are also dangerous to bystanders because you have no idea where they will land/penetrate.

While they can be deadly. I'd rather take a bullet to the leg, than several to the body, I'm pretty sure everyone would prefere a leg shot over beeing gunned down.

Here's a video of one incident, where a knife armed man, is not murdered by the police.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv397z5epTE

Weapons are always dangerous and warning shots can be. It's always pretty stupid to fire one into the air, as you point out they can hit bystanders. But again, I'd rather have a warning shot near me, than one directly to the leg or even worse, body. Can it ricochet and do some serious damage? Yes, but again it's a more safe moave than several body shots.

UK Police do warning shots fx.

[Benggaul]

While they can be deadly. I'd rather take a bullet to the leg, than several to the body, I'm pretty sure everyone would prefere a leg shot over beeing gunned down.

If I've put myself in a position where the police have to fire at me then I'd consider myself lucky if I come out alive regardless of where I'm shot. As stated, you can easily be mortally wounded from an arm or leg shot which is why police are trained to shoot for center mass--because if they HAVE to shoot then they have to assume they might kill the person they're shooting at.

Here's a video of one incident, where a knife armed man, is not murdered by the police.

Cool, now look up how many times that's happened successfully versus not.

Weapons are always dangerous and warning shots can be. It's always pretty stupid to fire one into the air, as you point out they can hit bystanders. But again, I'd rather have a warning shot near me, than one directly to the leg or even worse, body. Can it ricochet and do some serious damage? Yes, but again it's a more safe moave than several body shots.

Safer for the person being shot at, maybe, but not for anyone else who might be in the area.

UK Police do warning shots fx.

Neat. Even cops think warning shots are a stupid idea. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/p...hot/798338001/

I used to think "why not shoot them in the leg?" was a viable concept--I might have even posted in this very thread to that effect a long time ago--but then I read up more on the subject and learned why, ultimately, it's not really a thing.

The bottom line is that police should be trained to pull out their guns as a last resort because firing at anyone potentially means their death regardless of the method. The police in this instance--and in most instances pointed out in this thread--are not using guns as a last resort. They're going in with them practically already in their hands, escalating the situation rather than doing their jobs.

[Specialka]

Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like the police in your country aren't that much better than in the US in that regard then.

Leg/arm shots are potentially equally as fatal as torso shots (shots in the arms/legs can easily hit major arteries and send bone shards out like shrapnel), are much harder to hit especially in the heat of a confrontation, are potentially more dangerous to bystanders and don't even guarantee that an assailant will stop. Shooting is always a last resort because there is always a chance of a fatality regardless of what part of the body you hit and regardless of your accuracy.

"Warning shots"--by which I assume you mean shots fired into the air or near the assailant as a warning--are also dangerous to bystanders because you have no idea where they will land/penetrate.

You are right, they should aim for the head

You have still less chances to hit a vital organ by aiming in the arm or leg than in the torso.

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Hate to break it to you, but the police do warning shots -> leg shots in my country.

They are most probably more train than the average police officers in the USA as aiming for anything else than torso in a tense situation requires a lot of skill and self control.

[Themius]

You are right, they should aim for the head

You have still less chances to hit a vital organ by aiming in the arm or leg than in the torso.

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They are most probably more train than the average police officers in the USA as aiming for anything else than torso in a tense situation requires a lot of skill and self control.

How about not shoot someone when emergency services were called due to a mentally ill man who may harm himself??

[Specialka]

How about not shoot someone when emergency services were called due to a mentally ill man who may harm himself??

Most probably, Police Officers should have not been send alone on that case if it was established that it was a mentally ill person that was the issue. But if the situation arised, they should still be ready to open fire, as it seems it was the case here.

Why did the right started to move toward the police officer with the knife in hand ? Did the 2 police officers provoke him ?

[omeomorfismo]

Most probably, Police Officers should have not been send alone on that case if it was established that it was a mentally ill person that was the issue. But if the situation arised, they should still be ready to open fire, as it seems it was the case here.

Why did the right started to move toward the police officer with the knife in hand ? Did the 2 police officers provoke him ?

why are you asking the motives of a mentally ill person?
that was the problem and that is the reason because the cops shouldnt shoot him, being ill isnt a reason to be executed, not even in the US for all i know.
and most importantly, nott knowing what to do in a situation isnt a justification for murder, if they panicked they should start to cry, shit in their pants, run, not fucking execute someone

[Specialka]

why are you asking the motives of a mentally ill person?
that was the problem and that is the reason because the cops shouldnt shoot him, being ill isnt a reason to be executed, not even in the US for all i know.
and most importantly, nott knowing what to do in a situation isnt a justification for murder, if they panicked they should start to cry, shit in their pants, run, not fucking execute someone

Sure, to be stabbed in the back ? Have you any other great idea like that ?

[Doctor Amadeus]

In most of these cases typically because of the nature of what is being filmed I sided against cops.

However not in this case. You can’t threaten people with deadly weapons like a knife. The cops did the right thing.

Arguments that cops treat POC more harshly I agree. But again you can’t do this kind of behavior not expect this result.

[Noxx79]

Sure, to be stabbed in the back ? Have you any other great idea like that ?

You can walk backwards. It’s not hard.

[Felya]

You can walk backwards. It’s not hard.

I agree with you, but this is ridiculous... walk backwards? ‘Cmon man...

[Endus]

So I just realized there was another shooting, the Walter Wallace thing, and looking into it. The fact that the officers didn't have tazers is the real problem here. Philly police department can be held liable for that. Officers are blameless, they weren't properly equipped.

They killed a guy, and are blameless? That makes no sense.

The idea that all these cities can create mental health units of people running around the city dealing with knife wielding people who have mental health issues seems extremely far fetched. First of all it requires a level of education that most officers don't have, a level of education that usually implies that those people have access to better career opportunities than driving around all hours of the night dealing with potentially violent mentally ill people.

These mental health professionals already exist. They're not cops in the first place.

You'd have to pay A LOT - like 150-200k a year - to convince truly qualified candidates to even apply (plus good health insurance to deal with inevitable injuries and good life insurance for those who get killed, both of which would be expensive), and even then it would take several years to spin up training programs at the collegiate level.

Again, they already exist. And aren't paid anywhere close to that. Where are you getting this nonsense?

Also, your position seems rooted in the idea that cops should be badly trained. Which is pretty bananas.

Then there are problems like response time - if a city has one team on duty all the time, how long is it gonna take then to get to each location? What if there are two events going on at the same time? This feels like a hat that the cops will continue to need to wear.

Typically, they'd be stationed out of hospitals. And these figures are proportional to population, anyway, so you're kinda just fantasizing about a non-problem.

But is this evidence of systemic racism? Nah. Remember, there are 10,000 arrests a day. Some are going to go badly. This is one of those ones with extremely weird circumstances that admittedly wasn't handled well (he should have been tazered). Strikes me as another unfortunate circumstance, not anything malicious (like Breonna Taylor and unlike George Floyd). That's all I'm gonna say about it.

When you have to continually say "This specific data point does not prove a trend", and ignore the pattern created by the data points, you're being deliberately dishonest about what the statistics say.

It's the exact same nonsense climate change deniers engage in when they admit that "sure, this year is a record high for global temps, but that doesn't prove climate change is real". Ignoring the readily-observable warming pattern over time.