Random vs scripted pve game mechanics

[arkanon]

People complaining that BFA was one of the worst expansions ...

Why dont you come up with better ideas then if you are so smart so we can all have fun and enjoy the game ?

Im all ears.

People also say it was their favorite. But I am yet to find anyone saying the reason it wasn't their favorite expansion is because of a lack of randomness in the raid encounters, or that the raids were too easy.

You cant start a thread with a very specific topic, and then attack people telling them to fix a problem YOU have created in your head.

[ymirsson]

People complaining that BFA was one of the worst expansions ...

Why dont you come up with better ideas then if you are so smart so we can all have fun and enjoy the game ?

Im all ears.

Yeah, please stop posting.

[Nzx]

Having not read 4 pages of this: no thanks. Randomness is boring, and eliminates the satisfaction factor of pulling a boss 100 times and killing it the 101st time because you and your friends incrementally got better and better at performing the mechanics. If it's random, you could kill it the 101st time because everything lined up perfectly, even though on pull #4 you performed exactly the same way but got bad overlaps and died.

Regardless, there are already enough random mechanics in raid encounters, and the only reason I could think of that someone would ask for more is because they've never actually done high-end raiding before. Abilities might cast on a timer (timers are rarely exactly down to the second, though), but they target random players, meaning you still need your "high level of attention" because you might get targeted with something requiring you to stack, something requiring you to move, whatever. When these abilities become too random, you get Queen Azshara, which I don't think anyone actually enjoyed.

[arkanon]

When it comes to dealing with mechanics, I wish that healer cooldowns were a LOT weaker and healers had to deal with burst by just pumping with their base kit. It's pretty boring to say, "Ok use tranq for the first one, then revival for the next one, then htt".

Thinking back to Nefarian from BWD, that whole fight would be pretty silly today because healers have 3 minute cds now so with 4 healers you can use a huge cd every 45 seconds (and many healers have a second cd that's nearly as big as the main one). It used to be 8 minute cds so you had a lot more room to actually heal. While this wouldn't add any more randomness per se, it would make the actual act of fighting the boss feel more random because you wouldn't have these blanket huge heals bringing everyone up to full frequently on a schedule. You'd have to work together to find the resources to heal together instead of just taking turns with the bg cds.

Looking at an old fight with our current toolkits and balancing isnt really a good comparison though. Because that fight with our current toolkits would have been balanced completely differently. I do agree that healer throughput being the core concern for them was FUN, but im not sure its good game design.

[keldarepewpew]

Wotlk qchievements are dogshit easy compared to famed slayer of nzoth sorry to break it to you.

[Wadrak]

Wotlk qchievements are dogshit easy compared to famed slayer of nzoth sorry to break it to you.

And thats the most important part of this thread right ?

[arkanon]

And thats the most important part of this thread right ?

When you are discussing "difficulty" and "challenge", yes, it absolutely is. That is what multiple people are trying to tell you.

[Zmagoslav]

On lower difficulties, sure, would be worth a try...

On mythic, which is where the competition happens, however it would be just straight up bad.

[Jazzhands]

And thats the most important part of this thread right ?

I think the point is you did the easiest Heroic/Mythic content, haven't actually done much since then, but are asking for more difficult content. Quite frankly if you did anything more than just dipping your toe into Mythic, which is essentially all you've done, you'd understand why this is such an awful idea. The top players already take hundreds of attempts on mythic bosses, you're looking at increasing that number multiple fold while not actually adding any difficulty. This really wouldn't play out like you think, people would simply wipe and reset as soon as they knew whether RNG was going to favor them or not. This is just bad and unfun design, imagine a night where you just wipe 50+ times in a row on a boss because RNG never lines up instead of making actual mistakes that lead to learning and improving. Man, what a great time.

[keldarepewpew]

I think the point is you did the easiest Heroic/Mythic content, haven't actually done much since then, but are asking for more difficult content. Quite frankly if you did anything more than just dipping your toe into Mythic, which is essentially all you've done, you'd understand why this is such an awful idea. The top players already take hundreds of attempts on mythic bosses, you're looking at increasing that number multiple fold while not actually adding any difficulty. This really wouldn't play out like you think, people would simply wipe and reset as soon as they knew whether RNG was going to favor them or not. This is just bad and unfun design, imagine a night where you just wipe 50+ times in a row on a boss because RNG never lines up instead of making actual mistakes that lead to learning and improving. Man, what a great time.

there we go, someone gets it

[ShaanuJaanu]

This would be a horrible idea;

No two guilds will be fighting the same boss, it will all boil down to who got the least amount of mechanics/mechanics that don't overlap/skipped a mechanic because the boss died etc etc.

[HumbleDuck]

NO!

Missing on a kill because of bad trinket/ corruption procs or "random" human error is already bad enough.

[Wadrak]

When you are discussing "difficulty" and "challenge", yes, it absolutely is. That is what multiple people are trying to tell you.

Yes but you are only talking about challenge and difficulty but thats not the only thing I had in mind.

Also variety and replayability.

Look for example at Freehold dungeon.

Second boss, each week or perhaps each run you have to disable one of the three captains
in a different way. And they I believe you have to fight two captains out of random three.

I really like the variety. Its not much since its just once boss but its something.
And its RANDOM. Random tasks to disable to the captain, and RANDOM captains
and it works.

What I would like to see its a lot more of these things.
Even to the point were boss encounters would vary on same bosses.

I didnt play BFA that much but still I played every dungeon atleast 20 times if not more.

And since mythic plus is big part of the game and players are expected to make multiple runs
in each dungeon I would like if its more replayable.

[InfiniteCharger]

Depends on how you define randomness. Randomness is already embedded in PVE encounters and that is the core of DnD gameplay.

Basically any boss or monster has a set of abilities according to a school of magic and uses those in a random fashion.
That is basic DnD.

WOW then takes that concept and adds timers to it and those timers determine when certain abilities get used.
So if you are fighting a boss in a raid there are "phases" of the fight based on timers.
And at the end of each phase, the boss will do something that is predefined and the same every time.
Within the phase the abilities used are indeed random, ie spawning adds, or lobbing bombs or whatever.
But when a phase ends the boss typically does some high damage kind of attack that everyone needs to prepare for.
And then of course, there is the enrage timer where the boss basically becomes enraged and pretty much indestructable.
What most people are saying is that they don't want to remove those timed phases from the fight.
Having those high powered attacks just thrown in randomly with the rest of the abilities could be problematic.
However, just like with any other ability, most of the time there is a warning or indicator that the boss is preparing to do said attack anyway.
Also the boss should only be a able to do so many of those attacks per encounter so it wouldn't be spammed or back to back in most cases.

[Jamukan]

Yes but you are only talking about challenge and difficulty but thats not the only thing I had in mind.

Also variety and replayability.

Look for example at Freehold dungeon.

Second boss, each week or perhaps each run you have to disable one of the three captains
in a different way. And they I believe you have to fight two captains out of random three.

I really like the variety. Its not much since its just once boss but its something.
And its RANDOM. Random tasks to disable to the captain, and RANDOM captains
and it works.

What I would like to see its a lot more of these things.
Even to the point were boss encounters would vary on same bosses.

I didnt play BFA that much but still I played every dungeon atleast 20 times if not more.

And since mythic plus is big part of the game and players are expected to make multiple runs
in each dungeon I would like if its more replayable.

Bad example. First, the order is set and not random for a week. The tasks for each captain never changes and are also not random. And having Eudora up is always harder because that captain can actually kill you, while the other two are big no brainers. Exactly the point the others mention, where rng makes it harder.
I don't know why no one is bringing up Spirit Kings from Mogushan Vaults. At first that boss had a random order on heroic. Meng activated second or third? Boss is unkillable and you have to reset. Best rng ever

[Wadrak]

NO!

Missing on a kill because of bad trinket/ corruption procs or "random" human error is already bad enough.

Lol

Missing on a kill because of bad proc or bad RNG ?
So what would be stopping you killing the boss on next try ? Or next 5 attempts ?

Even if worse case scenario would happen one time, you cant make an excuse in 10 attempts.

Are you trying to tell me that you can kill the boss only when the stars align perfectly ?
Such guild is not good enough to kill the boss.

In encounter with some RNG elements you should be able to handle the hardest possible scenario
in order to declare you are good enough to defeat it, not only the easier ones.

If you can only beat the easier possibility and you get it and defeat it you were just lucky.

Thats the other way to look at it.

[Protean]

Randomness doesnt make it more challenging, just more difficult to measure failure.

No one likes failing at an encounter because 'random thing' happened instead of 'other random thing'.

Sure, but who the hell prefers scripted combat over random?

Random is better. Scripted makes every single encounter boring beyond measure. Monster Hunter is proof that random is great.

[ymirsson]

Lol

Missing on a kill because of bad proc or bad RNG ?
So what would be stopping you killing the boss on next try ? Or next 5 attempts ?

Even if worse case scenario would happen one time, you cant make an excuse in 10 attempts.

Are you trying to tell me that you can kill the boss only when the stars align perfectly ?
Such guild is not good enough to kill the boss.

In encounter with some RNG elements you should be able to handle the hardest possible scenario
in order to declare you are good enough to defeat it, not only the easier ones.

If you can only beat the easier possibility and you get it and defeat it you were just lucky.

Thats the other way to look at it.

This argument fails as soon as there is some kind of serious competition involved. Would you be happy about being second place if it was caused by having the a bad string of random occurences?

Not to mention that in a raid of 20 people, there is already an element of human error involved.

[Ninix]

That would create unmanageable situations, if mechanisms align badly and generate massive damage.

Not to mention strategies where interacting with mechansim A is mandatory to handle mechanism B. What happens if randomness gets the 2 completgely out of sync ... => impossible to go through the fight. That's not the goal of PvE encounter design ^^

[Rainyhealz]

This is exactly why high end pve is a joke. Its all scripted and an addon does it for you. I've been in a us 6th guild throughout legion and wod, and can barely hit above 2.3k in 3s. Pvp actually takes a lot more skill to be able to handle and adapt to many random situations. Pve is honestly a scripted joke