Random vs scripted pve game mechanics

[Advent]

Zmagoslav, Scrod, InfiniteCharger, Protean, Oscassey, AlmightyGerkin

Player from TOP 6 US guild included, because I realized thats what matter to you.

Quotes from this thread, or I don't believe this at all. And no one else should either.

[Wadrak]

Quotes from this thread, or I don't believe this at all. And no one else should either.

Should I order pizza and coke for you as well ?

[Advent]

Should I order pizza and coke for you as well ?

So no one in this thread who you've pitched this idea to, agrees with you. Got it.

[Revamp Man]

raids already have some situations kinda similar to this

i cant remember the boss but when the abilities are on individual timers it is important to push it before certain overlaps and they were kinda artificially difficult because of it...didnt make them well designed or increase the quality of the fight because it just made it annoying to deal with

[HumbleDuck]

Lol

Missing on a kill because of bad proc or bad RNG ?
So what would be stopping you killing the boss on next try ? Or next 5 attempts ?

Even if worse case scenario would happen one time, you cant make an excuse in 10 attempts.

Are you trying to tell me that you can kill the boss only when the stars align perfectly ?
Such guild is not good enough to kill the boss.

In encounter with some RNG elements you should be able to handle the hardest possible scenario
in order to declare you are good enough to defeat it, not only the easier ones.

If you can only beat the easier possibility and you get it and defeat it you were just lucky.

Thats the other way to look at it.

That's exactly my point, loosing a fight to rng is already bad enough and that counts for less than 5% of all pulls.

Now if we add rng to mechanics as well, that number will increase exponentially.

[Super Kami Dende]

Random mechanics are messy, since by virtue of being random, they can overlap with Mechanics that already require precision or coordination and can cause wipes basically due to just being badly timed.

[aeuhe4yxzhds]

ITT: People just want easy predictable content

Amazing, if people were in charge of video games, it would only have one button

[kranur]

Randomness is pretty bad by design. Remember when ppl wiped on Morogrim because 3 healers would get graved? Tgat was just bullshit.

[Wadrak]

ITT: People just want easy predictable content

Amazing, if people were in charge of video games, it would only have one button

Thats how it look to me as well....

Randomness is pretty bad by design. Remember when ppl wiped on Morogrim because 3 healers would get graved? Tgat was just bullshit.

Randomness may be a bad design, but do you know what is a lot worse design ?

When its scripted ...

It just feels like a railroad you cant turn left or right, you can only move forward ...

[Cracked]

ITT: People just want easy predictable content

Amazing, if people were in charge of video games, it would only have one button

You might be joking, but look how many popular one button games there are out there. You could almost make the observation that the fewer buttons the game has, the more popular it is.

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When its scripted ...

It just feels like a railroad you cant turn left or right, you can only move forward ...

That doesn't even make sense. You can also only move forward with randomness. What do you mean by scripted then, do you want bosses to just come up with completely new ability every time or what? Because even your definition of "random" would be scripted.

Because if you think the pull is 100% the same every time you do a boss, you are completely wrong. There are points of divergence and points of convergence and that's what makes it fun.

[ymirsson]

Thats how it look to me as well....




Randomness may be a bad design, but do you know what is a lot worse design ?

When its scripted ...

It just feels like a railroad you cant turn left or right, you can only move forward ...

Your response feels so scripted, but the words you use are so random.

It's all completely crazy, isn't it?

[Eapoe]

Wouldn’t work. Bosses would have to be designed (A) to where every one of their abilities is telegraphed with enough time so you can prepare for it, and (b) to hit weakly in case you don’t have CDs for it.
Random encounter design leads to potential ability overlap which can cause the boss to use 1 Shot kill abilities, or just very strong hard hitting abilities, back to back or even back to back to back where the group would not have the ability to counter.

[Wadrak]

What do you mean by scripted then, do you want bosses to just come up with completely new ability every time or what? Because even your definition of "random" would be scripted.

Because if you think the pull is 100% the same every time you do a boss, you are completely wrong. There are points of divergence and points of convergence and that's what makes it fun.

Lets just imagine a 5 man scenario ...

You clear the trash and reach a boss.

Boss has 5 abilities. A B C D E

So the fight looks like this. ABCDE ABCDE ABCDE atleast I believe its similar to that.

When you read the strategy about the boss or watch video or something in advance you already
have pretty good idea whats gonna happen or perhaps you done the boss 30 times so you know
exactly what and when its gonna happen.

So the boss never or rarely suprise you.

So you dont have to play so reactively. Maybe you dont realize it but you play in too scripted fashion.

Now the gameplay feels like 80% scripted and 20% reactive.

What I would like to see its if the slider moves more towards reactive. Lets just say 50/50 or even more.

And in order to create more reactive gameplay you would introduce more random elements.

[ymirsson]

Most people don't play to get surprised, they want to overcome known challenges.

[Relapses]

Faction Champs says hi.

Faction Champs also says bye. Forever.

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Lets just imagine a 5 man scenario ...

You clear the trash and reach a boss.

Boss has 5 abilities. A B C D E

So the fight looks like this. ABCDE ABCDE ABCDE atleast I believe its similar to that.

When you read the strategy about the boss or watch video or something in advance you already
have pretty good idea whats gonna happen or perhaps you done the boss 30 times so you know
exactly what and when its gonna happen.

So the boss never or rarely suprise you.

So you dont have to play so reactively. Maybe you dont realize it but you play in too scripted fashion.

Now the gameplay feels like 80% scripted and 20% reactive.

What I would like to see its if the slider moves more towards reactive. Lets just say 50/50 or even more.

And in order to create more reactive gameplay you would introduce more random elements.

They did this in Magister's Terrace. It was fucking terrible then and it would be just as terrible now. Hard pass.

[Wadrak]

Faction Champs says hi.

Faction Champs also says bye. Forever.

But faction champs is not good example because its very unique in different ways also.

Its the obvious fact that you face 10 NPCs of minibosses instead of just one boss.

Perhaps this is what made the fight dislike by many players.

I played factions champions a lot and I was not aware they are using random abilities ...

Obviously if you have 10 mini bosses and they are using all random abilities thats little
bit overwhelming.

Im talking now how it would work on a single NPC boss character.

[ymirsson]

But faction champs is not good example because its very unique in different ways also.

Its the obvious fact that you face 10 NPCs of minibosses instead of just one boss.

Perhaps this is what made the fight dislike by many players.

I played factions champions a lot and I was not aware they are using random abilities ...

Obviously if you have 10 mini bosses and they are using all random abilities thats little
bit overwhelming.

Im talking now how it would work on a single NPC boss character.

So you want it random, but not too random?

[Wadrak]

So you want it random, but not too random?

Yes, I want it significantly more random then its now but not too random.

Let me tell you another example.

Krosus boss in Nighthold.

There is a mechanic called Orb of Destruction.
It puts debuff on player and it explodes by big damage to all nearby allies

Ranged dps and healers can get targeted by it.
And they have to run behind the raid on the beginning of the bridge to drop it
in order to not hurt another players or perhaps even kill.

But imagine there would be more types of orbs.

Orb of Destruction, would do the same and player who gets it would glow green or got green symbol on him.

Abyssal Orb, it would explode but instead would increase damage taken by boss by 50% for 20 seconds and players would glow red.

Infernal Orb, it would explode but instead increase mana replenishment of nearby allies by 100% for 20 seconds and player would glow blue.

So you pull the boss.

And player would get an orb out of the pool. Green, Red or Blue, chosen randomly.

So this time player would have to make a decision based on the type of orb.

If you get green orb you run behind the boss,
If you get red orb you run near boss.
If you get blue orb you run into healers.

Now you have to make meaningful decision. And you dont know until you get the orb what would you have to do.

You see ? When you have random things you have to make decisions.

[ymirsson]

You see ? When you have random things you have to make decisions.

So why don't we all play with giant automated macros killing anything, because according to you, the currently available content is not random enough to pose a challenge?

[CerealLord]

Snip

That isn't random. You are adding two completely different mechanics to the fight. Now if the fight already included that, I could get behind making it random of which orb appears.