Police operation at Vienna synagogue, shots fired

[gargarr]

It's not really a good look to condemn behaviour that you participate in.

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More than free? That's interesting.

Ye, more than free. Some people will always have issues with you, but you will NOT be hunted by your government for it.

Now, if an immigrant states he will have issues with gay and lesbians than he has no place here. It's that simple.

[Pannonian]

Good thing we dont jail/execute people for being gay. Yet.



Okay, let's talk about the ideology then, oh wow, it's a religion, and it hate everything that isnt subservient to it.

Like any religion can and IS used as justification. That's why i think squabbling about which religion is bad and good is useless, as EVERY religion can and IS used for terrorism.

Terrorism isn't inherent to religion. Terrorism as a play for power, and one of the vehicles it can use is religion, it can also use various political convictions (from the left to the right). One the same account we can discuss about which weapons are used in the attack. Sure go ahead, but it's not really the important thing.

[Yriel]

You and a lot of bigoted people make that argument. Ever looked up the refugee processes in those countries?

Many of the "refugees" had appartments and jobs in turkey before they come to central europe. If thats not enough then that is their problem. They were safe and provided for.
But bigots like you don't like to hear that.

Well, if you want specific islamic examples, then the biggest i can think of: The first renaissance in the 12th century, triggered by christians rediscovering through the muslim world the ancient authors, which is arguably the basis for western Renaissance and enlightenment.

Anything more current?
Yeah it's nice that at that point in history the islamic countries hadn't burned down all their libraries like the christians did (although many did later) but if thats your best example then it's not very good imo.
It's not really a reason for islamic mass migration into europe.

[Pannonian]

Many of the "refugees" had appartments and jobs in turkey before they come to central europe. If thats not enough then that is their problem. They were safe and provided for.
But bigots like you don't like to hear that.



Anything more current?
Yeah it's nice that at that point in history the islamic countries hadn't burned down all their libraries like the christians did (although many did later) but if thats your best example then it's not very good imo.
It's not really a reason for islamic mass migration into europe.

Specific to vienna and recent: Iranian refugees after the revolution. Highly educated, not much spoken about as the integrated perfectly while still maintaining their cultural identity. You see a lot of iranian/persian restaurants, as well as many doctors (given the demographics of these refugees, no wonder)

[Gangresnake]

Like any religion can and IS used as justification. That's why i think squabbling about which religion is bad and good is useless, as EVERY religion can and IS used for terrorism.

Terrorism isn't inherent to religion. Terrorism as a play for power, and one of the vehicles it can use is religion, it can also use various political convictions (from the left to the right). One the same account we can discuss about which weapons are used in the attack. Sure go ahead, but it's not really the important thing.

Ok so let's not talk about religion then :
Let's say a certain ideology that involve making women subservient, free speech restricted, forbid homosexuality and classify non-followers of said ideology as second class citizens. Or in some case, forbid completely the act of not following that ideology.

That ideology would be very difficult to implement near our own, current european one who's pretty much its antithesis. It would be especially difficult if the ideology above stated plainly that its laws are superior to all humans laws, and apply to every single human beings equally.

Now if you put both those ideology together you're going to have a lot of friction, conflicts, terrorism, or civil war where one will eventually destroy the other. This is what is happening right now, one of these ideology doesnt like that it's not being followed, and thus is applying violence to impose its rule.
[Infraction]

[infinit]

Discussing religion is still a forbidden topic.

The terrorist love this attitude.
Kill people in the name of religion, don't allow others to talk about it... call it.. hermm... islamphobia

[ranzino]

extremists don't care if you have done something to them or not...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna
not the ultimate argument for terrorism in Vienna in 21 century of course, but it was the major victory against the ottomans and thus their downfall in western europe began. striking against Vienna and bringing terror to that city might just score 100 points on their to-do list ?

[Gangresnake]

Woah are you saying we can deport trump supporters?

If they suddenly had beliefs that were completely irreconcilliable with the dominating culture of the country, yes, deportations would be an alternative preferable to civil war.
Thankfully, looking at the US, it's nowhere close to be the case.

[Pannonian]

Ok so let's not talk about religion then :
Let's say a certain ideology that involve making women subservient, free speech restricted, forbid homosexuality and classify non-followers of said ideology as second class citizens. Or in some case, forbid completely the act of not following that ideology.

That ideology would be very difficult to implement near our own, current european one who's pretty much its antithesis. It would be especially difficult if the ideology above stated plainly that its laws are superior to all humans laws, and apply to every single human beings equally.

Now if you put both those ideology together you're going to have a lot of friction, conflicts, terrorism, or civil war where one will eventually destroy the other. This is what is happening right now, one of these ideology doesnt like that it's not being followed, and thus is applying violence to impose its rule.

And here is where we will disagree: That's your view of this specific religion. I can see how you can come to this conclusion, because if you follow orthodoxy, yep, you can arrive there. As you can with all abrahamitic religions. The thing is: people are more complex than that. You are aware that i can attest the very same attributes to christians? Sure that would be unfair, as this would be to cherry pick a very specific subset to represent the vast majority, but that's essentially what you're doing here.
[Infraction]

[Yunru]

The terrorist love this attitude.
Kill people in the name of religion, don't allow others to talk about it... call it.. hermm... islamphobia

Its bad for adds .

Well there is one good thing that came out of this. If people are inside homes from fear, less people will get infected by a virus. Wich means it will slow it down and also reduce the deaths and fucked up lifes due to it.

I wish we could do this type of lockdown here for at least a week. It would slow the shit out of it.

It does suck for family members that got their loved ones killed, but what can you do.

News does love its propaganda now of how some people saved the cop and old lady from shooting.

[gargarr]

I know freedom has become a vacuous term but dont you think youre taking it a bit far.

The government hunting you depends on if you shut up and just accept the status quo. Activists arent exactly left alone by the government.

But local homegrown homophobia is fine? We could help both these hypothetical people wherever they are. No reason to deport them.

A quick look at america shows how quickly things can slide backwards.

Not saying western society is perfect. Not everything is black and white. But Western society (which is mostly composed of christian countries) wil not put laws in places that let the state hunt and kill you down due to you being gay. This is a huge difference. Many arab countries have laws that will either throw you in jail, kill you or make your life otherwise miserable if you get caught being gay.

So yes, our society IS better. It is by no way perfect, but it is much better than those of most Arab countries in terms of LGBT right.

[Gaidax]

It's all nice and good, until shots are being fired few hundreds meters from your home.

I think it's important for EU governments to accept that some things will need to be changed.

[Gaidax]

Happened to many people in Christchurch. Progress on stopping white nationalist terrorism is in reverse.

I don't mind both of these diseases to be diagnosed as such and be treated, instead of this silly whataboutism.

One does not magically make another right. Islamist terrorism is a thing and those hotbeds of radicalization in Europe need to be exposed, publicly shamed and removed, even if it makes some SJW feels hurt.

And yes, if BBC can afford calling Islamist Terrorism that in news, I can do so too, because it's truth.

[Gaidax]

We cant stop any terrorism if we dont do something about white supremacy, it has been tied up in this for a long time.

Whataboutism is a psuedo intellectual cop out honestly. You cant really understand society if you cry whataboutism whenever someone juxtaposes something.

While our armies occupy the middle east we really cannot be taking a high ground.

Whataboutism is whataboutism. It's simply intellectual dishonesty.

No, Europe is not at fault when it comes to radical assholes being radical assholes and spreading their radical cancer to the gullible unwashed masses in hopes of recruiting fools to murder people in exchange for empty religious promises of heaven and what not.

A few more attacks like this and you will have Europe join France in cleaning out this radical shit in their backyard as they should have started doing years ago.

It's only just a matter of time before this foolishness of "it's all our fault" starts being a very unpopular opinion.

[Gaidax]

I don't even need to argue really.

It's like France, where Macron started sweating thinking of next elections in 2022, because he knows that citizens are getting tired of this shit, so he now suddenly plays a tough guy, shaking in his booties at his own citizens demolishing his party in 2022 over letting this shit grow in their own backyard for so long.

Same will be with the others too, because after all the dust settles - people know exactly what happened there, who is responsible and inevitably "why my government let this shit grow unchecked in the country".

It's not "'Murica is teh villain" - this shit is happening all over Europe and you can't shame Europe for not being welcoming and trying to help within reason, but they still get this shit right in their face and the public opinion shifts rapidly towards understandable anger, because citizens are not supposed to take this shit just to please some bleeding hearts.

[Yriel]

Specific to vienna and recent: Iranian refugees after the revolution. Highly educated, not much spoken about as the integrated perfectly while still maintaining their cultural identity. You see a lot of iranian/persian restaurants, as well as many doctors (given the demographics of these refugees, no wonder)

We had some well-educated syrian migrants in the 80s here in Germany, one of my best friends is the son of one of them. I don't doubt that.
But you said that they have "little quirks" that makes our societies better. I don't see that in them. They are just well integrated (or you might say assimilated) members of society. My friend is as german as they come.
But it's not like they bring anything we haven't had before, it's not like they improve our culture in any way. They are welcome if they are educated but it's not like them being themselves is a perk in itself.
Thats why i don't get this "diversity is our strength" stuff. Aside from the always repeated food stuff they virtually have no positive impact on our society that i can see. Thats why i asked for examples. How has the islamic migration in the last 5-10 years (or even much longer if you count the turks from the 60s onward) added to our culture? Aside from maybe Döner (that was invented in Berlin by a turk).

Sounds like some weird cherry picked fact that is devoid of context. Sure I'm a bigot for not believing your spurious claims.

I thought it is best practice in this forum to randomly insult each other as bigots and nazis if they have a different opinion.

[cface]

I don't even need to argue really.

It's like France, where Macron started sweating thinking of next elections in 2022, because he knows that citizens are getting tired of this shit, so he now suddenly plays a tough guy, shaking in his booties at his own citizens demolishing his party in 2022 over letting this shit grow in their own backyard for so long.

Same will be with the others too, because after all the dust settles - people know exactly what happened there, who is responsible and inevitably "why my government let this shit grow unchecked in the country".

It's not "'Murica is teh villain" - this shit is happening all over Europe and you can't shame Europe for not being welcoming and trying to help within reason, but they still get this shit right in their face and the public opinion shifts rapidly towards understandable anger, because citizens are not supposed to take this shit just to please some bleeding hearts.

Just ignore that guy, the way he calls the white supremacy card should be a giveaway of how he has no clue about EU and this topic at all

[Gaidax]

Just ignore that guy, the way he calls the white supremacy card should be a giveaway of how he has no clue about EU and this topic at all

Yeah, can't have any thread without those.

Some are so invested into their white supremacist boogeyman that they don't even realize that fighting religious radicalism does not equate to 1933. People can practice whatever they want and wear whatever they want as long as they don't force it on others.

But they also need to be mindful of where they are living and that others have just as much of a right to do things their way without being randomly shot or their heads sawed off. And if some shitty satirical paper publishes some shitty insensitive cartoon - it's not supposed to be a call to action to murder people.

That's not some ludicrous thing to ask for. And those who still don't get it - simply have no place in that country and that is alight too - there are more than enough countries around the globe more aligned with those views to feel at home in.

[Mayhem]

One can argue that if you move to another country you should show tolerance an acceptance toward their beliefs and way of life and not the other way around. If you can't do that, maybe you should go back to were you came from. It's very simple.

Yeah, born and raised in Austria, sooo send him back where to exactly?

[Mihalik]

Ok so let's not talk about religion then :
Let's say a certain ideology that involve making women subservient, free speech restricted, forbid homosexuality and classify non-followers of said ideology as second class citizens. Or in some case, forbid completely the act of not following that ideology.

That ideology would be very difficult to implement near our own, current european one who's pretty much its antithesis. It would be especially difficult if the ideology above stated plainly that its laws are superior to all humans laws, and apply to every single human beings equally.

Now if you put both those ideology together you're going to have a lot of friction, conflicts, terrorism, or civil war where one will eventually destroy the other. This is what is happening right now, one of these ideology doesnt like that it's not being followed, and thus is applying violence to impose its rule.
[Infraction]

So... I'd just like to point out that the things you've described apply to dozens upon dozens of ideologies. Some religious (including religions that the majority of Europeans nominally practice) and many primarily simply "traditional" or "conservative" or nationalistic.

Furthermore ideological violence is not unilateral as I pointed out for example, the last time we've had a terrorist attack at a synagogue it was....neo nazis.

Look, let's stop with the hyperbole.

I'm barely old enough to actually remember the 90s, I remember the weekly IRA bombing and killings, I remember the Basque ETA, I remember Italian organized crime waging literal open warfare with car bombings and kidnapping and drive by shootings on prosecutors and politicians.

I remember the equally bloody outbursts (bombings etc) of violence across central Europe from the mid to late 90s as eastern European organized crime groups were carving up eastern and central Europe.

Hell, if you dig a bit further back to the 80s and 70s it gets even messier, with the Red Brigades etc.

Yes, ideological and political extremism spawns violence and we have and historically always had some of it.

Basques didn't stop existing. The Catholic - Protestant divide didn't magically go away. Organized crime didn't suddenly decide to all become boy scouts etc.

Also repressive policing and military intervention also didn't solve anything.

Ultimately these things faded away through political dialogue, social dialogue, public policy changes, education and smarter policing.

While the underlying tensions are still there to some extent, all of it has been moderated enough that the violence mostly faded.

Again, walls, concentration camps, machine guns couldn't solve what eventually was solved by talking.