9.0 General Discussion

[InfiniteCharger]

The Jailer is in fact imprisoned there, his link to his minions are very vague, but from how the Primus talks about it, the implication I get is that the Jailer didnt always have control over the denizens of the Maw until fairly recently, or at least not enough to do much more than torture them.

Whether the Jailer was given "control" of the Maw before or after he was imprisoned is also left up to debate.

The specific words the Primus uses is that "[The Jailer] has fashioned his chains into weapons."

His name is the jailer because that is is role since being sent there apparently.

[Eurhetemec]

The part where the whole page is non-canon and thus not an example of anything relevant.

He's right that there's absolutely no possibility a new class is going to be named "tinker", not in 2020. The name alone is too much associated with both silliness/silly business/jokes/shenanigans and mild bigotry (typically towards Irish Travellers - it's not a major issue but it's just another reason to avoid it) to really fly as a whole new class name (rather than an occasionally-used term or verb).

Is there enough material to make a class from the various engineer-ish characters in the game? For sure.

You could have a three-class tank/healer/DPS setup, or tank and two DPS, or whatever. It could even be pretty cool. But it's not going to be called "tinker".

[Makorus]

All I will say is that you should not expect an engaging discussion about Alleria and the Void with a person who has "Alleria Fanboy" on his profile.

[Varodoc]

You don't consistently make rational arguments, Varodoc, let alone ones "backed by source material" (you almost never link to any support for your claims). You make far-reaching claims and you insult and belittle anyone who tries to politely disagree with you, so your "OMG everyone is so rude!" point is pretty amazingly hypocritical. There's an old adage about how if you meet a jerk now and then, they're probably jerks, but if everyone but you seems to be a jerk, maybe look in the mirror. And you certainly seem to think we're all jerks. You characterise disagreement with your wild claims as ad hominem attacks, even when it's very clearly disagreement.

And no, it's not reasonable, ever, to ask other people to put you on ignore, let alone to demand it, as you did. You're a hypocrit to ask that. You think you're better than other people, we get that, but no-one else needs to act on that basis.

Nor is it reasonable to demand people argue with every point you make individually. Many of them are so ridiculous as to not even merit a response (because you claim them as facts, but provide little evidence/rationale as to why they should be considered such), and further, a lot of the argumentation you use it is itself so broken that it warrants criticism - but again, you regard criticism of bad arguments as ad hominem attacks.

You know what else is not reasonable? This:

"I'm not even going to read your explanation, you clearly don't know anything, you are delusional, bye"

Also, it is a FACT that undead are not immune to the Void by nature, and it is backed by the SOURCE MATERIAL. This is Domina, an UNDEAD worshipper of the Old Gods leading TWILIGHT'S HAMMER forces in Blackfathom Deeps:



If you check the Twilight's Hammer page on wowpedia, it gives you further undead NPCs working for the organizations too.

So No, this is not a far-fetched claim at all. The far-fetched claim is thinking that ALL undead are immune just because the Scourge ones were, ignoring the fact that the Scourge minions did not have free will and were actually already controlled by a hivemind.

All I will say is that you should not expect an engaging discussion about Alleria and the Void with a person who has "Alleria Fanboy" on his profile.

If you had spent time looking up the questline of Mac'aree and racial abilities of Void elves instead of reading my profile, you might have had some ground to stand on.

[rhorle]

He's right that there's absolutely no possibility a new class is going to be named "tinker", not in 2020. The name alone is too much associated with both silliness/silly business/jokes/shenanigans and mild bigotry (typically towards Irish Travellers - it's not a major issue but it's just another reason to avoid it) to really fly as a whole new class name (rather than an occasionally-used term or verb).

No one gives Disney crap for having a main character named Tinkerbell who is a tinker fairy. It would be fine to have a class named Tinker in WoW.

[Sondrelk]

No one gives Disney crap for having a main character named Tinkerbell who is a tinker fairy. It would be fine to have a class named Tinker in WoW.

Mekkatorque is literally titled "High Tinker". I sincerely doubt Blizzard has any massive reservations about adding the iconic tinker class to the game and continuing ot call it tinker.

[Eurhetemec]

Mekkatorque is literally titled "High Tinker". I sincerely doubt Blizzard has any massive reservations about adding the iconic tinker class to the game and continuing ot call it tinker.

There is no "iconic tinker class". This is a bizarre messageboard bubble-think idea.

[PenguinChan]

Anyone know how the Demonic build plays with Shadowlands? I'm going to miss the CD reduction to Metamorphosis and the random addition to Meta-procs with the necklace.

[Eurhetemec]

You know what else is not reasonable? This:

I dunno who you're quoting, but I didn't say what you're claiming I did, i.e.:

"I'm not even going to read your explanation, you clearly don't know anything, you are delusional, bye"

The rest is some argument you were having with someone else, probably whoever said that to you.

[Ersula]

His name is the jailer.

The Winter Queen says explicitly that they made the maw to imprison him. The name might just not make much sense, but then again we don't really know anything about what he did that the other Shadowlands leaders felt he deserved eternal damnation. Or that everything bad that is happening now is indirectly their fault. I'm guessing the other leaders didn't forsee him building an army with souls he converted.

Honestly, I can't see how people can hear Sylvanas go "the logistics of the afterlife are really bad, it's time to restructure" and disagree with that

[TheFirstOnes]

You want a generic big bad with no nuance, that spews same generic villain lines? Was Amon from Starcraft 2 that appealing? Or C'thun/Yogg with their "All will be consumed"?

The Old Gods are parasites of the Void Lords, who see all possibilities and are only doing shit for their own cosmic purpose. Sargeras is doing his shit based off fear, and is basically a more chaotic Illidan. We're seriously lacking the whole "EVIL BAD FORCE" here...

And I kinda hate that.

[Sondrelk]

There is no "iconic tinker class". This is a bizarre messageboard bubble-think idea.

I assume you are not aware of the many gnomes and goblins using mechsuits for fighting. There was literally a raid boss in this very expansion against High TINKER Mekkatorque.

The class being known as a tinker is probably not as well known, but I feel fairly confident that pretty much every player has at some point seen a mech suit being used by an NPC and wondered what that would be like.

[Eurhetemec]

The class being known as a tinker is probably not as well known

That's my point.

[Makabreska]

The Old Gods are parasites of the Void Lords, who see all possibilities and are only doing shit for their own cosmic purpose. Sargeras is doing his shit based off fear, and is basically a more chaotic Illidan. We're seriously lacking the whole "EVIL BAD FORCE" here...

And I kinda hate that.

You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.

[Sondrelk]

That's my point.

That is just the name though. The class itself is well-known.

[Halfaheart]

This is a 9.0 Discussion thread and Tinkers are not part of this expansion so can we keep that trash nonsense far the fuck away from here?

[Makabreska]

This is a 9.0 Discussion thread and Tinkers are not part of this expansion so can we keep that trash nonsense far the fuck away from here?

Aw shiet, here comes the ban hammer.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.

"I don't like it" is all you are really saying.

[Vakir]

Honestly, I can't see how people can hear Sylvanas go "the logistics of the afterlife are really bad, it's time to restructure" and disagree with that

Nobody is saying that. Even Danuser CONFIRMED we were meant to read problems.

It's because the ethos of him and consequently Sylvanas per the Shadows Rising epilogue is to obliterate creation, not carefully rehabilitate it. The actual positive changes to the Shadowlands are facilitated by us, the players, by opposing radicals of different zone theme stripes (and the Drust that seem underwritten).

This is not to take a political stance personally, but it bears noting the Grey Lady Bad real life allegory of a cult of personality leader that duped a large group into believing in them despite self serving interests in BFA was not subtle coming from a California based corporation.

Neither is an allegory about a system that is not kind to the disenfranchised but is met with a violent breed of nihilism to erase it.

The villain can still be wrong. Or at least the intended text reading can feel that way. Death of the Author and all that.

[Ersula]

Neither is an allegory about a system that is not kind to the disenfranchised but is met with a violent breed of nihilism to erase it.

*Her "true" goal being to obliterate creation is your individual reading of her words
*We're told the mawsworn are being converted & controlled by the Jailer, so completely that they are capable of monologuing about how much they love death & the jailer, so why shouldn't we assume Sylvanas is in a similar situation
*Sylvanas' character is to be secretive & self-reliant. Whom can she trust when all are bound to the Jailer eventually?
*We wouldn't even know that there is a Jailer or that there was a problem with the system of the death if it weren't for Sylvanas' very specific actions
*Sure she could have tried telling people, but A.) no one ever trusted her enough to believe her & B.) Considering we now know the Val'kyr have essentially been her "Handlers" to watch her every move on behalf of the jailer, you start to understand why her actions are inherently perplexing

And finally, & this is the one that firmly places her in "morally ambiguous" territory, which is what the Dev's want.

*What does killing people matter if the larger dilemma is in the realm of the afterlife itself? The world is a prison indeed.