9.0 General Discussion

[Varodoc]

You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.

Not necessarily, take for example Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. He is objectively evil, and he doesn't have a traumatic backstory nor compelling motivations, but he's still super popular and iconic, because he has a badass design, an entertaining personality, and all around a lot of presence in the storyline. He only appears in the final movie of the original trilogy, but he was always present in a way, as he was the puppet master behind Darth Vader (there is a scene in episode V where Vader literally kneels before a projection of Palpatine). He's so beloved yet at the end of the day he's just a crazy lunatic who wants to rule the galaxy as an eternal emperor.

And if you don't believe me check any reaction to the trailer of Episode IX on youtube, the crowds went absolutely crazy once they heard that chuckle at the end.

Same thing here, you don't need morally grey motivations to be a good villain. It's easier to make a decent villain if you give them understandable motivations, but not necessary.

Also what is very important for a villain is design. A villain needs to have a cool design that reflects their personality and powers. The Jailer right now looks very generic. I preferred him as that "Evil Aman'thul" from the Shadowlands teaser. He looked more mysterious and mystical, you could say.

[TheFirstOnes]

You want zero personality, no character, no purpose evil force? No reasoning, no understanding, pure 100% bland thing you just smack over the head for loot? This is actually first time I saw someone asking for that here. All eh complaints were about not fleshing them out enough. And TBH we had plenty of these already (or close enough, because to fulfil all those bullet points, we would have to fight a pure Fel energy, or something). Yogg and C'thun, regardless of who send them, were just a single minded, corrupting force of destruction. Same with Deathwing.

You can be the most evil fucker out there, yet still have a personality. Look at fucking Gul'dan. He's pure evil, yet he was one of the best WoW Characters out there. I want a pure evil Cosmic Force to deal with. Not a force that bases their shit on a cosmic hierarchy, but a force of evil that can just devour and consume all in its path without care. I want the Jailer to be an evil cunt who's manipulative, yet badass. I want him to have the goal of dismantling all forces in the Cosmos, because he just wants to have fun with it, or some twisted way of thinking like that.

I don't want another "morally grey" villain, or another force of nature like the Old Gods. I WANT A PURE EVIL GOD TO SLAY!!!

[Ersula]

Same thing here, you don't need morally grey motivations to be a good villain. It's easier to make a decent villain if you give them understandable motivations, but not necessary.

So you're saying when Alleria goes mask-off & becomes a raid boss, you're going to be all for it? She melted an innocent man's brain in the Shadow's Rising novel. She's next on the objectively evil list of potential villains.

[Varodoc]

So you're saying when Alleria goes mask-off & becomes a raid boss, you're going to be all for it? She melted an innocent man's brain in the Shadow's Rising novel. She's next on the objectively evil list of potential villains.

D... did you not read my past comments in this thread? I already commended Alleria many times for single-handedly corrupting Stormwind in that Vision, I even praised how badass she looked.

Unlike you, who absolutely can't accept that Sylvanas is evil and a villain, I have no problem admitting it.

Alleria would be one of the most tragic villains in the entire franchise if she ever fell to the whispers, and Blizzard could easily write a masterful character arc if they took that route and developed it in a natural way. What matters to me, and to anyone sane really, is execution. Don't point fingers at me, because I am the least biased person you will ever see here, and I am much more impartial than you, who constantly justify Sylvanas and claim she's a good guy.

[Ersula]

I don't want another "morally grey" villain, or another force of nature like the Old Gods. I WANT A PURE EVIL GOD TO SLAY!!!

That's why they created the Jailer.

But some people are saying Sylvanas somehow deserves worse punishment than the various men who caused her trauma, which I am not for. Alleria neither. I don't need cartoonishly flat characters.

[Eurhetemec]

That is just the name though. The class itself is well-known.

Different people have wildly different ideas of what such a class would entail.

The idea of a engineer-type class (as opposed to NPCs who are engineers, or the engineer skill) being in WoW is moderately well-known. Like, casual players, which is most WoW players, rarely know it's an idea. They see the NPCs who are engineers as "characters in vehicles" (because mechsuits are vehicles in WoW, we use them from time to time), or just extensions of the skill.

Among more long-term players, and those who frequent messageboards, which isn't a very large percentage of players overall, it's absolutely a well-known idea, because people suggest it every single expansion, all the way back to TBC, and it always gets shot down the same way - "There's already the engineering skill". (As an aside, I don't agree with that shoot-down. If that logic held there'd be no Demon Hunters, because Warlocks already covered about as much of that as Engineering does of an engineer or "tinker" class).

But even those players have wildly different ideas about it, as I was saying. Just look at people describing what it would be like. For me, for example, an engineer/tinker class would "obviously" (to me I mean lol ) be a mechsuit-based tank spec, a guns-and-gadgets-based DPS spec, and a "medical"-themed healing spec (it's been done before, in SWTOR for example). For other people, it's totally different things, like all mechsuits with different roles, or all DPS specs based on guns and mechanical pets but no mechsuits (indeed this was a very common idea in the Vanilla-Wrath days when people theorized about an engineer/tinker class), or whatever.

So it's a bit strange to say it's an "iconic class". It isn't. There are iconic characters who are engineers/tinkers, sure, but there are iconic characters who are dragons, or non-playable races, or Half-Ogre Batman, or necromancers or whatever.

It would be more accurate to say "It's probably the most commonly suggested class that's not in the game already" (though necromancer will make that a close race). It's not some universally-agreed and obvious thing which is just waiting to appear in the game.

[Vakir]

*Her "true" goal being to obliterate creation is your individual reading of her words

"The Jailer, too, knew what needed to be done" + Doylist text describing an ancient evil erasing creation

*We're told the mawsworn are being converted & controlled by the Jailer, so completely that they are capable of monologuing about how much they love death & the jailer, so why shouldn't we assume Sylvanas is in a similar situation

Why shouldn't we indeed? It's entirely possible, albeit it would probably rub many the wrong way that. But it can't be both ways. You can't claim that someone is playing 12D chess and is a Machiavellian genius and also that the Devil made her do it.

She either has direct will or she doesn't. If she does, it is narratively in the realm of her making...at BEST an impetuous mistake. If she doesn't, she's another sympathetic prop and nobody is happy.

*We wouldn't even know that there is a Jailer or that there was a problem with the system of the death if it weren't for Sylvanas' very specific actions

Yes and no. The Jailer's direct threat being what it is happened as a result of her participation. While it's true that it is hard to trust, handing him millions to do it while also directly backing him doesn't look so hot.

As far as this whole notion of not being able to tell anyone, Danuser confirmed she lifts the mask on her intentions early on. So the trailer line "with the Jailer, control of our fate will at last be possible" is speaking honestly, even if she likely has her own reasons for it. She isn't lying in that sense.

The problem with the moral ambiguity you're presenting it as is that it is fundamentally Schrodinger's Bitch.

"If the Jailer is in the right, she's working with the Jailer to try and fix great injustice! If he isn't, she is under control and a victim or is playing 14D Interdisciplinary Backgammon."

"BuT IlLiDaN..."

Seriously, it is entirely possible for a character to be morally ambiguous by way of being bamboozled by seeing a bleak vision of Hell after being the victim of circumstance and cursed to a miserable existence, losing faith to the point of extreme omnicide and nihilism while we feel bad for what drove them to the brink of despair. Where breaking it all feels like the only solution. It's how people poorly cope in the real world all the time.

This other proposed direction is just the shitty version of The Good Place.

[Eurhetemec]

Not necessarily, take for example Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. He is objectively evil, and he doesn't have a traumatic backstory nor compelling motivations, but he's still super popular and iconic, because he has a badass design, an entertaining personality, and all around a lot of presence in the storyline. He only appears in the final movie of the original trilogy, but he was always present in a way, as he was the puppet master behind Darth Vader (there is a scene in episode V where Vader literally kneels before a projection of Palpatine). He's so beloved yet at the end of the day he's just a crazy lunatic who wants to rule the galaxy as an eternal emperor.

Palpatine wasn't a popular character anyone really cared about until after the prequels developed his personality and motivations.

I grew up in the 1980s. No-one gave a shit about Palps. He was some dumb old man who shot lightning then got thrown down a hole, despite a pretty good performance. Darth Vader was what it was all about. The same was true in the 1990s. Darth Vader was the man, Palps was nobody.

Only with the prequels giving him a lot more personality, and a bit of a backstory, and non-hostile interactions with people did he become this highly popular, meme-y, cheer-inducing character that he is now. I went with someone who skipped the prequels to see IX, and they were astonished to see Palps was back, because they just thought of him as a non-entity, despite having been a big fan of the OT.

What's my point?

He's "beloved" because his character got developed. He wasn't before then.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't claim that someone is playing 12D chess and is a Machiavellian genius and also that the Devil made her do it.

I've actually seen that done successfully, though I'm struggling to remember where it was - something in the late 1990s or early 2000s I think. I doubt an MMORPG could pull something like that off, except maybe SWTOR, though.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

He's "beloved" because his character got developed. He wasn't before then.

And his character is master manipulator and doesn't really give a shit about anyone other then himself his "sith reign" and thats it. Nothing really redeemable with the dude.

[Eurhetemec]

And his character is master manipulator and doesn't really give a shit about anyone other then himself his "sith reign" and thats it. Nothing really redeemable with the dude.

Oh definitely yeah, he's evil incarnate lol.

But he has quite a developed personality and backstory and so on. If he was just the Emperor from Episode VI and IX, we would not be a popular character except with turbo-nerds.

Equally if Darth Vader didn't have his "I am your Father" and redemption-moment and so on, he'd be vastly more forgettable. A character doesn't have to become good, but they do need to have a bit more going on than "I AM MR EVIL ARRIVED TO DO EVIL". Otherwise you get fucking Steppenwolf from from the Justice League movie, who is a shit-tier villain and will remain a shit-tier villain even with the director's cut and so on (he'll just be a shit-tier villain who has a brief scene with Darkseid, who 75% of the audience will think is a cheap rip-off of Thanos lol).

The Jailer will need a bit more development of some kind if he's going to be anything but "extra-lorg Steppenwolf" or "Thanos minus the personality and motivations".

[Nagawithlegs]

The Nathrezim missive (and them holding off on making that a public reveal) is pretty damning on Jailer being tied to Warcraft proper instead of just the cosmology, so it's just a matter of WHEN they want to show more lore about him.

He's not in launch all that much but neither is Sylvanas. Could there be secret quests? Maybe. But I don't think its worth fretting all that much that the villain isn't really developed all that much in launch quests, especially when the focus is on the covenants.

[rhorle]

The idea of a engineer-type class (as opposed to NPCs who are engineers, or the engineer skill) being in WoW is moderately well-known. Like, casual players, which is most WoW players, rarely know it's an idea. They see the NPCs who are engineers as "characters in vehicles" (because mechsuits are vehicles in WoW, we use them from time to time), or just extensions of the skill.

The idea of a tinker class has appeared in the game more then Demon Hunters did and yet that never stopped anything. There is no need to invent different reasons to gate keep a potential addition. Casual players have never stopped an idea before and you under estimate the concept of a mechanical based class to the "non-message board" player base. Blizzard has slowly been building out the mechanical aspect for over a decade. The base concept exists.

It doesn't matter if your idea is different then others. Because you are all basing that idea on the representations that they have been shown in the game. If you all share a common base then it is iconic enough.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Anyone else think bringing back Invasion Points from Legion would be a good idea for Shadowlands? What I mean by that is having the Maw forces invading other Afterlife Realms besides the 4 main zones. Basically showcasing a small bit of what some other realms could look like, even giving a bunch of different characters from the past just a small cameo of being saved in their Afterlife. Or is this idea too dumb?

[Sondrelk]

Speaking of Palpatine, I guess that might be the best analogue for the Jailer being the mindless force of destruction in Shadowlands.

Darht Vader is the one we have emotional interest in and the character we feel invested in seeing defeated. However since there is a limit to how much actual threat Darht Vader himself can realistically muster we have Palpatine to add an extra layer of danger to the situation.

Similarly Sylvanas is the character we want to see dead, but she isnt threatening enough on her own without something external giving her power, and since a literal macguffin is too boring we instead have the Jailer, which while not necessarily terrible interesting, is at least more interesting, and has the capacity for independent thought and action, compared to the hypothetical "Bow of +200% final boss ability" that Sylvanas might have picked up instead.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone else think bringing back Invasion Points from Legion would be a good idea for Shadowlands? What I mean by that is having the Maw forces invading other Afterlife Realms besides the 4 main zones. Basically showcasing a small bit of what some other realms could look like, even giving a bunch of different characters from the past just a small cameo of being saved in their Afterlife. Or is this idea too dumb?

Whether Argus invasions or BfA islands I do feel Blizzard should continue with recycling content, they are often far too stingy with assets, especially when it comes to enviromental assets.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Whether Argus invasions or BfA islands I do feel Blizzard should continue with recycling content, they are often far too stingy with assets, especially when it comes to enviromental assets.

I was kind of looking at this in a lore PoV. Seeing potential afterlives, even a little bit, and the characters that ended up there.
7.3 Invasion Points alone introduced 6 different planets.

[Eurhetemec]

It doesn't matter if your idea is different then others. Because you are all basing that idea on the representations that they have been shown in the game. If you all share a common base then it is iconic enough.

I agree. But I don't think such a common base exists yet, in fact, I think we're a bit further away from it than we have been at certain points, at least for "iconic" to be valid.

You could definitely add an engineer/tinker class to the game and be successful with it, though. Then it will likely be iconic because Blizzard have never designed a class that wasn't, they're masterful at it compared to other MMOs. There will of course be a shit-ton of whinging from the very people here saying it was "iconic" and everyone "agreed" on what the class would be like though - because the class may well not be like that. It might not have a mechsuit option at all, for example, or might only have mechsuit options, or the mechsuit might be a brief cooldown (highly likely IMO), which would enrage some people here.

[Sondrelk]

I agree. But I don't think such a common base exists yet, in fact, I think we're a bit further away from it than we have been at certain points.

Person controlling a mechanical technowonder suit is a perfectly valid and understandable base for a class.

We have the basic stuff of strapping a bunch of guns and blades and what you to it. Or placing down smaller robots to help. Or now that Marvel is a big thing just fly around the battlefield punching people.

It is pretty much like how the accepted base for Necromancer is cloth wearer summoning undead, and despite this it is somehow distinct enough from unholy DK because of the plate that making a full class based on it is easily possible.

[Varodoc]

Anyone else think bringing back Invasion Points from Legion would be a good idea for Shadowlands? What I mean by that is having the Maw forces invading other Afterlife Realms besides the 4 main zones. Basically showcasing a small bit of what some other realms could look like, even giving a bunch of different characters from the past just a small cameo of being saved in their Afterlife. Or is this idea too dumb?

It would be a decent feature as I really enjoyed the Legion Invasion worlds. The idea that there are "infinite realms in the Shadowlands" could be conveyed through this feature. As well the Jailer is supposed to be an immediate cosmic threat like the Legion, thus storywise it would only be fitting if he also started attacking other planes of the Shadowlands.

This could also happen if/when we fix the machine of death, as we would force the Jailer to look for other means to bolster himself -- namely reaping the anima literally from as many realms as he can find.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I was kind of looking at this in a lore PoV. Seeing potential afterlives, even a little bit, and the characters that ended up there.
7.3 Invasion Points alone introduced 6 different planets.

To respond to you, I don't mind reusing the invasion stuff so long as they its onside with the already exxisting world quests instead of replacing them.

[rhorle]

I was kind of looking at this in a lore PoV. Seeing potential afterlives, even a little bit, and the characters that ended up there.
7.3 Invasion Points alone introduced 6 different planets.

Something more like MoP scenarios would probably be better. Tell a little more of a story/stuff and not as crowded as Islands or as "basic kill" as legion invasions.