Police operation at Vienna synagogue, shots fired

[Unholyground]

Religion is bad, and it is bad for people period. Spirituality and connection to the earth is one thing but all the nuances and fear mongering religion creates is evil and it resides in all of them, not one religion is fee of telling you how to treat others even if in most cases that turns out to be horrible.

[Mihalik]

sip.

Fact.

Muslims whether moderate or otherwise tend to deal with various degree of institutional discrimination tied to the fact that they are usually racially or ethnically distinct from the majority population. These forms of discrimination range from access to education and employment to dealing with law enforcement. Denying this is disingenuous.

As long as this state of affairs persists the problems derived from it will persist.

Social problems do not go away by themselves, they need to be actively solved. It's a bit hard to tell people "be more like us" while also discriminating them for not being sufficiently "like us".

Furthermore why is the influence of Saudi Arabian clerics so widespread across Europe?

Even in the most secular European nations majority religious groups receive substantial direct ot indirect state aid. That role has been almost exclusively filled by Saudi funding and Saudi clerics across Europe.

This could be directly tackled by minor state intervention that would come in the form of indirectly supporting (in cooperation with private entities like foundations and corporations) the creation of Islamic study centers within Europe, study centers that practice and teach more moderate forms of Islam to train moderate clerics.

Create outreach programs between corporations and Islamic communities. Do real studies on the forms in discrimination Muslims deal with and implement programs aimed to deal with those issues.

Improve public awareness of things such as the histories of Islamic nations.

I don't know whether you are aware of this or not, but anti Muslim biases are deeply ingrained in the European meta, especially in Eastern, South Eastern, Central and South Western Europe, due to things such as the Ottoman Wars and the Reconquista. I'm not saying these nations ought to forget their own history, what I'm saying is that context needs be provided so people stop identifying Muslim with words like "evil" and "invader".

There's a lot more to be said on this topic to be honest.

- - - Updated - - -

sip

Take what I'm saying with a massive pinch of salt as I'm just speculating here, but taking into account the firearms the terrorist had, I'm thinking the Swiss connection could be tied to them sourcing the guns from Switzerland.

Again, I'm just speculating. The connection could be something entirely different.

[Mayhem]

Very well said Mihalik

[PC2]

Could we maybe discuss the actual incident? Rather than using this incident as a tentpole to push bigotry towards innocent people?

Almost every thread about an incident is about generalizing beyond the 1 incident and the individuals involved. For example look at any of the threads about a cop incident and you'd find that it almost immediately becomes about cops in general. While your point has merit it would need to be applied as a forum rule in order for people to take it seriously.

[Sama-81]

Fact.

Muslims whether moderate or otherwise tend to deal with various degree of institutional discrimination tied to the fact that they are usually racially or ethnically distinct from the majority population. These forms of discrimination range from access to education and employment to dealing with law enforcement. Denying this is disingenuous.

Factually untrue for my nation, even though i ofc can't speak for the entirety of Europe. Here, in fact, there are scores of examples for the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what you're talking about, i.e. where it's a direct and tangible benefit to NOT be a part of the majority population. That goes for housing, that goes for employment, that goes for education (albeit less so), that goes for judicial protection, and yes, it has even demonstrably been true for police enforcement in some very distinct cases (mainly concerning incidents of mass-sexual harassment/rape). Again, I can't speak for Europe overall, but neither can you - it's very clear you don't have the faintest idea about the situation in for example my country or a number of other european ones, not the faintest, and painting with the brush you do is rather unbecoming with that in mind, I'm afraid.

If you want to make the argument that Austria as an isolated entity is guilty of your accusations, then it wouldn't be a bad idea to demonstrate why your accusations are valid. Putting the word "fact" first in the post doesn't actually make it so, I'm afraid, and there are excellent examples of your accusations simply not being applicable as a general blanket, prompting for a little more tangible substance behind the words.

Social problems do not go away by themselves, they need to be actively solved. It's a bit hard to tell people "be more like us" while also discriminating them for not being sufficiently "like us".

If you really do believe this is only a "social problem", then a further discussion on the topic is pointless, really, as far as I'm concerned. It's just far, far too naïve to think that's the beginning and the end to the issue. And there is literally nothing to support such a notion either...just take the fact for example, that despite what I wrote above, we had one of the biggest populations of ISIS-travelers in the entirety of Europe. Crime being absolutely rampant in the same populace, we've had our terrorist attacks, whereas other enclaves facing the exact same socio-economic situation/culture crash are model citizens, out-behaving even the majority. I can totally buy that it's PARTLY a social issue, but trying to ignore all the other parts of an obviously complex issue is disingenious at best, and a wondrous demonstration of how a political blindfold works at worst.

And more like us? If I speak for my own country yet again, it's in the very constitution that we're a multicultural country, nobody tries to get anyone to be more "like us" - apart from the struggle to get large parts of those groups to actually adhere to the law, that is, and learning the language. If anything, the majority populace does the lion part of the "adaptation", via such things as news starting to appear in arabic and somali, muslim holidays gaining recognition, etc etc. And the same is, broadly speaking, true for a number of other countries, including two I've personally lived in, so it most certainly isn't the case that we're just an isolated example on a large continent.

Even in the most secular European nations majority religious groups receive substantial direct ot indirect state aid. That role has been almost exclusively filled by Saudi funding and Saudi clerics across Europe.

This could be directly tackled by minor state intervention that would come in the form of indirectly supporting (in cooperation with private entities like foundations and corporations) the creation of Islamic study centers within Europe, study centers that practice and teach more moderate forms of Islam to train moderate clerics.

Sorry mate, that is already the case here, and it solved literally nothing. Not the tiniest of bits. The main sources of radicalization still seems to be mosques, and sadly a suprisingly large part of them, and the most famous imams that are...lets say "questionable" in their teachings (barring the ones the security police declared persona non grata due to being outright ISIS-preachers), are still considered "moderate" and receive funding from the state in various ways. This might not have been tried in for example Austria, but seeing it fail here doesn't really make it more likely that such measures would work there either.

Anyways, it seems it's time to move on from this thread, since this topic is more or less closed now. The limitations put on the thread makes the core issue utterly unreachable, and what is left is basically to engorge in the details of this particular terrorist attack, examine the specifics regarding the planning, or other such things that are in the grand scheme of things just another flood in this seemingly unending typhoon-season, of little use beyond to those unfortunate enough to be more personally affected by the...incident in question.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Take what I'm saying with a massive pinch of salt as I'm just speculating here, but taking into account the firearms the terrorist had, I'm thinking the Swiss connection could be tied to them sourcing the guns from Switzerland.

Again, I'm just speculating. The connection could be something entirely different.

That was actually what first came to my mind.

Yesterday Islamic State claimed the attack, labelling the assaillant as one of its soldiers.

According to this mornings news, the 2 people interrogated knew the main suspect. Our Minister of Justice described them as "colleagues", which had physically met.

The terrorist held Austrian citizenship, originated from North Macedonia, I think I heard from the Albanian minority.
Apparently he had been arrested previously for trying to join the Islamic State, and released, flaunting a deradicalization program.

[Mayhem]

Factually untrue for my nation, even though i ofc can't speak for the entirety of Europe. Here, in fact, there are scores of examples for the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what you're talking about, i.e. where it's a direct and tangible benefit to NOT be a part of the majority population. That goes for housing, that goes for employment, that goes for education (albeit less so), that goes for judicial protection, and yes, it has even demonstrably been true for police enforcement in some very distinct cases (mainly concerning incidents of mass-sexual harassment/rape). Again, I can't speak for Europe overall, but neither can you - it's very clear you don't have the faintest idea about the situation in for example my country or a number of other european ones, not the faintest, and painting with the brush you do is rather unbecoming with that in mind, I'm afraid.

If you want to make the argument that Austria as an isolated entity is guilty of your accusations, then it wouldn't be a bad idea to demonstrate why your accusations are valid. Putting the word "fact" first in the post doesn't actually make it so, I'm afraid, and there are excellent examples of your accusations simply not being applicable as a general blanket, prompting for a little more tangible substance behind the words.



If you really do believe this is only a "social problem", then a further discussion on the topic is pointless, really, as far as I'm concerned. It's just far, far too naïve to think that's the beginning and the end to the issue. And there is literally nothing to support such a notion either...just take the fact for example, that despite what I wrote above, we had one of the biggest populations of ISIS-travelers in the entirety of Europe. Crime being absolutely rampant in the same populace, we've had our terrorist attacks, whereas other enclaves facing the exact same socio-economic situation/culture crash are model citizens, out-behaving even the majority. I can totally buy that it's PARTLY a social issue, but trying to ignore all the other parts of an obviously complex issue is disingenious at best, and a wondrous demonstration of how a political blindfold works at worst.

And more like us? If I speak for my own country yet again, it's in the very constitution that we're a multicultural country, nobody tries to get anyone to be more "like us" - apart from the struggle to get large parts of those groups to actually adhere to the law, that is, and learning the language. If anything, the majority populace does the lion part of the "adaptation", via such things as news starting to appear in arabic and somali, muslim holidays gaining recognition, etc etc. And the same is, broadly speaking, true for a number of other countries, including two I've personally lived in, so it most certainly isn't the case that we're just an isolated example on a large continent.



Sorry mate, that is already the case here, and it solved literally nothing. Not the tiniest of bits. The main sources of radicalization still seems to be mosques, and sadly a suprisingly large part of them, and the most famous imams that are...lets say "questionable" in their teachings (barring the ones the security police declared persona non grata due to being outright ISIS-preachers), are still considered "moderate" and receive funding from the state in various ways. This might not have been tried in for example Austria, but seeing it fail here doesn't really make it more likely that such measures would work there either.

Anyways, it seems it's time to move on from this thread, since this topic is more or less closed now. The limitations put on the thread makes the core issue utterly unreachable, and what is left is basically to engorge in the details of this particular terrorist attack, examine the specifics regarding the planning, or other such things that are in the grand scheme of things just another flood in this seemingly unending typhoon-season, of little use beyond to those unfortunate enough to be more personally affected by the...incident in question.

Are you from Austria? Because if you are you should take your rose coloured goggles off.

- - - Updated - - -

That was actually what first came to my mind.

Yesterday Islamic State claimed the attack, labelling the assaillant as one of its soldiers.

According to this mornings news, the 2 people interrogated knew the main suspect. Our Minister of Justice described them as "colleagues", which had physically met.

The terrorist held Austrian citizenship, originated from North Macedonia, I think I heard from the Albanian minority.
Apparently he had been arrested previously for trying to join the Islamic State, and released, flaunting a deradicalization program.

Yeah, it seems law enforcement did fuck up in not monitoring this guy.

[Leodric]

I live 10 minutes away from where it happened, very fucked up. No idea why anyone would attack Austria out of all places, we didn't do shit to anyone since neutrality. Unless they count sending food/medical aid to countries they attack.

[Zython]

Problem is, this is what we're doing since 60 years, and the violence is only escalating.

You know all those wars, coups, and bombings weren't, like made up for Tom Clancy novels. They actually happened, right?

The new generation of muslims are actually MORE radicalized than their parents. Comparing this to the Catholic - Protestant divide is disingenuous at best, as the reason for the religious violence back then was because protestants were litterally barred from practicting their religion.

True. It's more like the divide between Christianity and Judaism. Christianity has been used as a reason to murder Jew for centuries, and shows no signs of stopping.

This was never the case with Islam in modern society, which was allowed complete religious freedom, and used that freedom to simply reject western culture.

...What? You guys have been trying to ban Islamic and Jewish religious practices for decades.

Also I just got an infraction for talking about religion in a thread about Islamic terrorism, so I'm done here.
[Infraction]

I get infracted for calling out anti-semitism, but anti-semitism doesn't get infracted. Go figure.

[Klok]

Why are people talking about refugees when these terrorist attacks were done by a chechen and an albanian?

[Kotuthan]

Why are people talking about refugees when these terrorist attacks were done by a chechen and an albanian?

As far as I am aware. The Chechen came to Austria as a Child as a Refugee. Then got Citizenship. Not sure about the Albanian.

[Mormolyce]

religiosity has gone down in countries liberated.. in fact the most radicalized countries now are ones ran by the "secular strongman" because they use religion as a control device, turkey, saudi arabia, pakistan.. egypt

Iraq was run by a secular strongman... when the US ousted him, the fundies moved in...

[Forogil]

Austria have now closed two mosques that the attacker frequented, https://www.dw.com/en/austria-closes...ack/a-55523158

Austrian Integration Minister Susanne Raab warned that people often get radicalized by an ideology that does not cross into illegal territory.

Instead, "it stirs up a victimhood narrative, communicates an anti-Western position," Raab said. Such narratives can be "dangerous, especially for people who are often in an individual identity crisis."

I live 10 minutes away from where it happened, very fucked up. No idea why anyone would attack Austria out of all places, we didn't do shit to anyone since neutrality. Unless they count sending food/medical aid to countries they attack.

I agree that you didn't do anything to explain this, but more generally:

When it comes to terrorism attacks we should not blame the victim and their country.

Only a racist/nationalist would see that killing a random Austrian would in any way be justified by decisions made by the Austrian government.

In general people only notice the few terrorism attack in the west and try to find simple explanations that don't fit the broader picture. E.g., this month, as well as last month, most terrorism victims are actually muslims, most victims lived outside the western world - and all (or at least an overwhelming majority) are killed by islamic terrorists.