Pathfinder returns for Shadowlands

[SirCowdog]

First pathfinder takes away flight until further notice.

Then the decide to remove a bunch of portals to make moving around inconvenient.

Now "The Maw" takes away mounts entirely until further notice.

What a load of crap, Blizz. Just f**k off with taking away player ability to move quickly.

[THEORACLE64]

i mean we havent seen a part 1 yet

im guessing it will be gated behind covenants this time around

They’ve pretty much said it’s a renown/covenant based thing *facepalm*

[keldarepewpew]

Dont need flying anyway, i got 12/12 mythic and 2300 arena rating this season and i dont even have flying. Don't do world quests so don't see what i would use it for. Pathfinder seems fine to me.

[SirCowdog]

Nazjatar killed my interest in Pathfinder, if they design content like that again, I'll demand mounts from day 1.

They're literally doing the opposite of what you want. In the maw there are NO mounts, not even ground mounts, until you grind like a slave first.

COMMUNITY: "Uhg....Pathfinder again.... Blizz please make it less of a PITA? "
BLIZZ: "Sure, no prob! (locks even ground mounts behind a rep grind in a major end-game zone). There ya go! We really learned a lot from BfA!"


This? This right here? This is what happens when you guys say "Pathfinder is fine".

[Mightytasty]

Slight necro but whatever... I think this is the expansion where they bring back Pathfinder and finally opinion swings 100% against it and everyone admits that it sucks, then it's gone next expansion. They should remove it not to stay ahead of the negativity.

This 100%. Was cool in WoD, passable in Legion (Suramar was good), awful in BFA (Nazjatar *shudders*), and is looking even worse in Shadowlands. The Maw is going to burn out so many players going for pathfinder its not even funny.

[Stardrift]

First pathfinder takes away flight until further notice.

Then the decide to remove a bunch of portals to make moving around inconvenient.

Now "The Maw" takes away mounts entirely until further notice.

What a load of crap, Blizz. Just f**k off with taking away player ability to move quickly.

The Maw is designed in a way so that you won't be able to spend long in it without the zone debuffs kicking in to kick you out.

Mounts negate this, and you'd be able to get a lot more done than what you were supposed to. Even being able to run away from the elite mobs they toss at you. Removing mounts forces you to slow down and eventually become over encumbered.

[Icelin]

I just think it's hypocrisy on Blizzard.

They want to promote new players joining. Exiles reach (new leveling zone) and unlocking Allied races for all. (Which I did agree with Allied races restrictions getting removed) Yet they don't want them to experience flying when a lot of long term players got to experience this. We had it until when WoD?

[SirCowdog]

The Maw is designed in a way so that you won't be able to spend long in it without the zone debuffs kicking in to kick you out.

Mounts negate this, and you'd be able to get a lot more done than what you were supposed to. Even being able to run away from the elite mobs they toss at you. Removing mounts forces you to slow down and eventually become over encumbered.

Yes, and up until recently the Maw was boring and mostly empty. Making it more difficult to get around doesn't make the small amount of boring things to do there more interesting. Tedium does not equate to content!

Whatever the rationalization for it is. Taking away player mounts is a shit design. Instead of doing that, they should have designed the zone to include mounts by adjusting distances and terrain.

Why?

Because this is tje2 same excuse they used to excuse weak simplistic design without flight. "ItS tOO HaRD To lEt PlAYErs flY. WE arE tAKinG aWaY fLighT tO ImPRovE yOUR ImMErsIOn".


What's next? Having to RP walk everywhere because there's a scary monster stalking you in a zone and you have to be quiet or it'll catch you and you're done farming rep for the day? Like I said before:

Fuck off Blizzard. Stop trying to prevent players from playing.

[Ringthane]

Yes, and up until recently the Maw was boring and mostly empty. Making it more difficult to get around doesn't make the small amount of boring things to do there more interesting. Tedium does not equate to content!

Whatever the rationalization for it is. Taking away player mounts is a shit design. Instead of doing that, they should have designed the zone to include mounts by adjusting distances and terrain.

Why?

Because this is tje2 same excuse they used to excuse weak simplistic design without flight. "ItS tOO HaRD To lEt PlAYErs flY. WE arE tAKinG aWaY fLighT tO ImPRovE yOUR ImMErsIOn".


What's next? Having to RP walk everywhere because there's a scary monster stalking you in a zone and you have to be quiet or it'll catch you and you're done farming rep for the day? Like I said before:

Fuck off Blizzard. Stop trying to prevent players from playing.

How in the world does this prevent players from playing?

Can you still log in?

Can you still select your character?

Can you still zone into the game world?

Can you still move about the game world?

If the answer to any of these is no, then I would agree. But since the answer to all of them is yes, it's less a case of Blizzard trying to ruin the game for players, and more a case of you whining about something you don't like, and expecting the rest of us to bow to your wisdom.

And that's not going to happen.

[SirCowdog]

How in the world does this prevent players from playing?

Can you still log in?

Can you still select your character?

Can you still zone into the game world?

Can you still move about the game world?

If the answer to any of these is no, then I would agree. But since the answer to all of them is yes, it's less a case of Blizzard trying to ruin the game for players, and more a case of you whining about something you don't like, and expecting the rest of us to bow to your wisdom.

And that's not going to happen.

The steady erosion of player agency in lieu of layered, unnecessarily complex systems all in service of engagement figures instead of enjoyable gameplay. That's what I'm arguing against.

I never said "bow to my wisdom". I made an argument for why I think it's just another step on a bad path. But maybe overexaggerating my points in a blatant straw man makes you feel more righteous. I don't know.

[cparle87]

Except that it's not really "current" content for most of the time. I subbed for Ny'alotha patch and Pathfinder wants me doing content for fresh 90s that was no longer relevant within a week of the expansion launch.

By and large, world content is no longer really "current" for your character's power level by the second month of the expansion, and for most characters much sooner than that - I expect to outgear it in a week or two. Making me do it for pathfinder is stupid.

Except it is current content. Each patch they updated the ilvl of the world quest rewards and emissary rewards to keep them viable. Getting revered with the reps was a 2 week grind, the storylines a day each. And we had plenty of time to do it because we all knew part two wasn't going to be for a while. Trying to cram all of that into the end of the expansion while simultaneously chafing for flying is of course going to make you frustrated, but that's not a result of the game design.

[ohwell]

Except that it's not really "current" content for most of the time. I subbed for Ny'alotha patch and Pathfinder wants me doing content for fresh 90s that was no longer relevant within a week of the expansion launch.

By and large, world content is no longer really "current" for your character's power level by the second month of the expansion, and for most characters much sooner than that - I expect to outgear it in a week or two. Making me do it for pathfinder is stupid.

That's a fairly large lie. It doesn't stop you from doing current content from the patch and then you can easily exhaust that content. Leveling got you pretty close and you should have gotten part 2 within a couple of weeks at worst. The only part of part 1 was the war campaign, but that was more story driven than gear or ilvl driven.

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Except it is current content. Each patch they updated the ilvl of the world quest rewards and emissary rewards to keep them viable. Getting revered with the reps was a 2 week grind, the storylines a day each. And we had plenty of time to do it because we all knew part two wasn't going to be for a while. Trying to cram all of that into the end of the expansion while simultaneously chafing for flying is of course going to make you frustrated, but that's not a result of the game design.

I resubbed once they pushed SL back as I had skipped BfA and was debating on buying it or just waiting. I got flying within 10 days or less. These people are ridiculous to try to get you to believe they're not a minority of whining players.

- - - Updated - - -

The steady erosion of player agency in lieu of layered, unnecessarily complex systems all in service of engagement figures instead of enjoyable gameplay. That's what I'm arguing against.

I never said "bow to my wisdom". I made an argument for why I think it's just another step on a bad path. But maybe overexaggerating my points in a blatant straw man makes you feel more righteous. I don't know.

There was no strawman there. You LITERALLY said thank you blizzard for preventing us from playing. You're just mad and saying he's overexaggerating your point when he blatantly proved your point wrong with literal logic. There is no straw man as you're the one making hyperbole your point.

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I just think it's hypocrisy on Blizzard.

They want to promote new players joining. Exiles reach (new leveling zone) and unlocking Allied races for all. (Which I did agree with Allied races restrictions getting removed) Yet they don't want them to experience flying when a lot of long term players got to experience this. We had it until when WoD?

The races still have requirements unless that's changing again. They removed the rep. You still need the quests completed for them like the entire quest line up to Dazaralor raid for Zandalari.

[ohwell]

The Maw is designed in a way so that you won't be able to spend long in it without the zone debuffs kicking in to kick you out.

Mounts negate this, and you'd be able to get a lot more done than what you were supposed to. Even being able to run away from the elite mobs they toss at you. Removing mounts forces you to slow down and eventually become over encumbered.

They'd cry if they could mount and the elites netted you and dismounted you and if allowing mounts they cut the time you could be in the maw. It's a lose/lose for Blizzard with these crybabies.

[SirCowdog]

There was no strawman there. You LITERALLY said thank you blizzard for preventing us from playing. You're just mad and saying he's overexaggerating your point when he blatantly proved your point wrong with literal logic. There is no straw man as you're the one making hyperbole your point.

Context, my dude.

He exaggerates by adding things to twist what the intent of my argument:

"Can you still log in?

Can you still select your character?

Can you still zone into the game world?

Can you still move about the game world?"

When it was clear that my points were about slowing down players and not LITERALLY keeping them out of the game entirely.

That's the definition of a straw man: Making up a point that was never intended, then arguing against that instead of what the original argument was about.

[ohwell]

Context, my dude.

He exaggerates by adding things to twist what the intent of my argument:

"Can you still log in?

Can you still select your character?

Can you still zone into the game world?

Can you still move about the game world?"

When it was clear that my points were about slowing down players and not LITERALLY keeping them out of the game entirely.

That's the definition of a straw man: Making up a point that was never intended, then arguing against that instead of what the original argument was about.

You LITERALLY said you cannot play. He asked those things proving you wrong. He didn't add anything. He said what the context of playing was. YOU are the one making a straw man claiming he did.

[Stardrift]

Yes, and up until recently the Maw was boring and mostly empty. Making it more difficult to get around doesn't make the small amount of boring things to do there more interesting. Tedium does not equate to content!

Whatever the rationalization for it is. Taking away player mounts is a shit design. Instead of doing that, they should have designed the zone to include mounts by adjusting distances and terrain.

Why?

Because this is tje2 same excuse they used to excuse weak simplistic design without flight. "ItS tOO HaRD To lEt PlAYErs flY. WE arE tAKinG aWaY fLighT tO ImPRovE yOUR ImMErsIOn".


What's next? Having to RP walk everywhere because there's a scary monster stalking you in a zone and you have to be quiet or it'll catch you and you're done farming rep for the day? Like I said before:

Fuck off Blizzard. Stop trying to prevent players from playing.

Stretching lands to accomodate for the lack of time spent via mounts would make no difference to running on foot. Just sounds like a double negative so why are you complaining if that's something you want? You'd be spending the same amount of time travelling in the zone anyways.

You're right that tedium doesn't equal content. But this is a game where people praised mage towers for their "difficulty". When they were really quite literally just basic mechanics with large numbers to give the illusion of difficulty. Fact being that it got steamrolled in 7.3.

The Maw needs a lot of work done to make it fun and engaging. Being unable to use mounts in the Maw helps add character to the zone and forces engagement, which is a good thing, albeit the zone is majorly lacking in other things to engage with.

Wanting mounts so you can just devolve into degenerative gameplay (running through everything so that you can play "reach point B from point A" simulator) is just laziness and thoughtless.

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They'd cry if they could mount and the elites netted you and dismounted you and if allowing mounts they cut the time you could be in the maw. It's a lose/lose for Blizzard with these crybabies.

The guy literally suggested increasing distance travelled to accomodate for skipping through everything on a mount. Talking about double negatives lol

[hulkgor]

Absolutely no issue whatsoever with Pathfinder.

I actually think the absence of flying makes the game, and the world more enjoyable with new content, and at the start of new expansions. And having flight midway through the expansion is a good way to deal with it.

The whistle, gliders and flight paths are more than enough to navigate the current content.

[SirCowdog]

You LITERALLY said you cannot play. He asked those things proving you wrong. He didn't add anything. He said what the context of playing was. YOU are the one making a straw man claiming he did.

Thank you for your service, Captain Literal. Clearly I am in the wrong, and the entire time I obviously meant that Blizzard intends to shut off player access to the game entirely, and ruin their revenue stream. Yes. I see the light now. I also wish to join the Literal League and misinterpret things to make me feel better about myself. Where do I sign?

[WowIsDead64]

Looks like I won't be preordering.

I'm sick of this garbage. Literally nobody complained before WOD about flying except like 1% of World PVPers, and another 1% of avid roleplayers who claimed "Muh immersion!"

Even Blizzard's most avid fanbase in attendance at Blizzcon was largely unimpressed by this announcement

This is garbled version. Blizzard constantly say it. "Legion will be like Draenor", "BFA will be like Legion" and now "Shadowlands will be like BFA". But in Draenor it was exceptional case, because they decided to return flying only by 6.2. In Legion we had half a year till flying and then no flying on Argus. In BFA we had year of no flying. So Shadowlands will be even worse? I've got sick of this nonsense. I need guarantees.

As for me, BFA has clearly shown, that game can be terrible even with flying. And therefore flying itself isn't major problem for me. It's design of game itself. Therefore "return in x.2, when flying returns" no longer works for me. I will return, only if guaranteed design changes will be made. Or Classic Draenor servers will be opened.

Overall I'm for "Keep Pathfinder but remove the time-gating (available at launch)". Because original reason for it was "for immersion and exploration purposes". It this time leasts for not longer, than several weeks for me. Then it turns into routine grinding. And since that moment removal of flying is nothing, but just arbitrary stretching play session, i.e. trying to show high activity to shareholders. No reason for waiting for half a year, just because there are still 2-3 quest there, that aren't completed yet, so we still can't say, that I've "mastered content on a ground". Just a made up reason.

[SirCowdog]

Wanting mounts so you can just devolve into degenerative gameplay (running through everything so that you can play "reach point B from point A" simulator) is just laziness and thoughtless.

That isn't what I said. I said:

"they should have designed the zone to include mounts by adjusting distances and terrain."

Perhaps I should have expanded on that for clarity. I sometimes forget that there are a lot of people who have never been exposed to the more reasonable arguments surrounding mounts.

I did not mean to imply going with business as usual where players simply skip pasts everything on their mounts as being better than whatever the Maw has right now. What I meant was that Blizzard needs to put in the dev time and creativity to come up with a design that uses mounts and accounts for them. Large open and empty spaces is not that design, nor is flying past everything what I'm advocating for(although that's a separate argument involving the question of whether or not content we've already cleared is relevent enough to not skip).

But the overarching point I was trying to make, before the literal brigade derailed it, is that simply taking away mounts and their speed without changing anything else in the designed won't make the sparse content of the Maw any better. In fact, in large part the Maw's entire premise is one of taking away player agency and selling it back to us with a rep grind, exactly how Patahfinder is done. How is that good?

Shouldn't we be expecting better than for Blizzard to take the easy way out by following the same okd formula of taking away our stuff then sllllooooowwwlly letting us grind back up to par?

Shouldn't blizzard be adding something new. on top of what we already have? Adding to the game instead of just replacing and swapping oit borrowed power?