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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    These simple insulting psyche evaluations also leave out the nuance of our electoral system, which is borked to hell. Gee, I wonder why people would back Biden? Pretty much because it's the only choice.
    Having something as the only choice doesn't necessarily mean refusing to acknowledge specific ways in which this choice is lacking - especially past the point where that choice already won and thus you're stuck with it, flaws and all, for four more years.

  2. #82
    Had Trump already left the country like he promised?

  3. #83
    Out with the old narratives, in with the new huh?

    Ahahahaha.

    Well, the new dynamic will make it a lot easier for you guys to play the victim, your favourite game of all. So it's all good right?
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    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I'm pointing out that the reality of this election can be summarized in this one image:
    < img >]
    Sadly enough we have to work with the tools we are given.
    Can't win them all and sacrifices will need to be made for results, usually.

    The republicans certainly have done a great job in these elections!

  5. #85
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mifuyne View Post
    Sadly enough we have to work with the tools we are given.
    Can't win them all and sacrifices will need to be made for results, usually.

    The republicans certainly have done a great job in these elections!
    Just to point this out, that image is selective bullshit. Progressives are the ones that won seats. Harris is the most left wing person in the executive branch, in the history of the US. Due to losses in the house, the “squad” with new members, have more control of the Democratic Party, because DNC does not have the majority without them. If democrats won seats, the squad would be irrelevant. This election is pushing Harris, with Biden as a 4 year stop gap.

    The me too movement part is even more frustrating, because it was this very poster, posting articles about men being afraid to approach women due to me too movement, during the Kavanaugh confirmation. As every single reasonable person said or thought at the time, confirming him was the death of me too. If one wants to blame liberals, the only way to do so is to point to the conservatives calling the, selfs classic liberals. Conservatives that this poster holds in high regard, but does not see them spending weeks complaining that 15 year old She’ra cartoon character needs bigger “boobs”. Maybe it is liberals to blame... at least those who claimed to be liberals in 2016... note the claimed...

    Don’t fall for grifters...
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  6. #86
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Having something as the only choice doesn't necessarily mean refusing to acknowledge specific ways in which this choice is lacking - especially past the point where that choice already won and thus you're stuck with it, flaws and all, for four more years.
    Did you literally just cut out him pointing out flaws to tell him no to forget the flaws?
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Having something as the only choice doesn't necessarily mean refusing to acknowledge specific ways in which this choice is lacking - especially past the point where that choice already won and thus you're stuck with it, flaws and all, for four more years.
    You don’t have to contrive bullshit narratives to do so. You are not supposed to accept every narrative. Your post is actually explaining disinformation. If I say Joe Biden eats babies, someone coming in to calling me a fucking moron, is not that someone being biased. Your assertion deviates from the actual accusation, to focus on the merit of accusing in general. Which is actually a subversive way to admit the initial claim has no merit...

    So ah... stop it... you suck at this...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    The ACA isn't an incremental step. Biden never said it was, and I am curious where this comes form given its widely said yet never sighted as an actual plan by anyone except the head-canon of people trying to argue that ACA = Universal Health Care.
    This comes from comments made by Democrats in 2010 when it was being passed. They couldn't get Medicare for all thru congress, they couldn't even get a public option thru congress, the ACA was seen as the closest we could get given political realities at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    What the ACA is is a program that forces people to interact with a complex bureaucracy, that then forces them to buy a private health care plan and then have a new bill to pay every month. The "Public Option" didn't happen before, its not happening in the next four years, and Biden has vowed to veto any Universal Program that comes his way. Given that the parts of the ACA that NOBODY LIKES are the Market bits that force people to speak to some bureaucrat who then assigns them a plan to pay for, and that they have to pay for a private health care plan, how that is making people warm up to a Universal Health Care program is beyond me.

    When is the Public Option coming? In ten years? twenty? thirty? All Biden has said is he believes in a right to AFFORDABLE health care, which basically means absolutely nothing. Plus, if the plan is to get the public down for a UHS, why a Public Option? Why a SECOND means tested program that only some people get to even use? I mean if that was the path to UHS via incrementalism wouldn't Medicare have already gotten us there? It too is a means tested program only accessible to some people but otherwise is free at point of service health care. Shouldn't improving the quasi-UHS we already have (Medicare) make more sense then creating complicated market places for health insurance and assuming that the next step is Medicare 2 when we could you know, just expand Medicare.
    A Public Option wouldn't be means tested, it would mean you can buy Medicare on the ACA marketplace. If you are over 65, you don't have to buy it, you just get it for free. If you are in poverty, you get Medicaid, which provides essentially the same coverages with a different billing structure in the back end.

    Further, a public option would set a price and services floor. No insurer could offer less services at the same price and stay in business, because private insurers need to turn a profit. No insurer could offer the same services at a higher price, because nobody would buy it. This sets the baseline for what it should cost and what you get for your money, while building the Medicare risk pool, and driving down costs even further the more people that buy in.

    I agree it's a hot mess currently. I agree that we need something like Medicare for all (with no co pays) or the NHS to actually solve the problem.

    I also don't see how you sell that to an electorate that by and large has adequate employer provided health insurance you would necessarily take away. They wouldn't get a raise, because what they pay in premiums now would essentially be taken as taxes to pay for the new system. They would see a reduction in out of pocket costs, but that never seems to sway people, because people are predisposed to believe "well I'm healthy now, why should I worry about healthcare costs later? I probably won't get sick anyway".

    The alternative to the ACA, right now, is to have no protections for pre-existing conditions whatsoever, the ability for your insurer to drop you at any time for any reason, no controls for costs, no controls for what a plan actually covers, and still having to pay out of pocket for preventative care up to the deductible.

    The choice, RIGHT NOW, isn't ACA vs M4A. It's ACA vs zero regulation. I'd take M4A over ACA in a heartbeat, but I'll absolutely take ACA over literally nothing.
    Last edited by Antiganon; 2020-11-07 at 01:56 PM.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Did you literally just cut out him pointing out flaws to tell him no to forget the flaws?
    He is trying to justify rhetoric, not on its merit, but on the ability to criticize those you support. More crude versions of this are... “Fair and balanced” and “both sides”.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Did you literally just cut out him pointing out flaws to tell him no to forget the flaws?
    Very next sentence in the part i was replying to was "Theo shaming people for going with their best option at the time that's the most realistic is possibly some of the worst morality finger wagging bullshit I've ever witnessed"

    Where is shaming of people in discussing and acknowledging specific flaws? People who see flaws being pointed out in their candidate as personal attack are the problem.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Very next sentence in the part i was replying to was "Theo shaming people for going with their best option at the time that's the most realistic is possibly some of the worst morality finger wagging bullshit I've ever witnessed"

    Where is shaming of people in discussing and acknowledging specific flaws? People who see flaws being pointed out in their candidate as personal attack are the problem.
    No, people treating bullshit as legitimate flaws, are the ones hurting the discourse. Note as an example... your posts are not listing any flaws, but are arguing to accept all flaws as reasonable. That’s treating people like they are gullible... try third graders with this shit...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No, people treating bullshit as legitimate flaws, are the ones hurting the discourse. Note as an example... your posts are not listing any flaws, but are arguing to accept all flaws as reasonable. That’s treating people like they are gullible... try third graders with this shit...
    Yes, i see any flaw as something that can be discussed in a reasonable way without seeing it as a personal attack on supporter.

    Different people put different weight on them, and some don't see flaws that fit their agenda as negatives either; that doesn't mean they should deny them existing just because it breaks their narrative.

  13. #93
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Yes, i see any flaw as something that can be discussed in a reasonable way without seeing it as a personal attack on supporter.

    Different people put different weight on them, and some don't see flaws that fit their agenda as negatives either.
    Unless it's about Russia lmfao
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Unless it's about Russia lmfao
    I can discuss Russian flaws just as well, and agree to many.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I can discuss Russian flaws just as well, and agree to many.
    While the ones you don’t, what does that mean?

    Edit: Don’t be shy... no need to delete posts.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    While the ones you don’t, what does that mean?
    I either don't see them as flaws or see no easy way of rectifying them without damage to other important parts.

  17. #97
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I either don't see them as flaws or see no easy way of rectifying them without damage to other important parts.
    Why doesn’t it mean this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Having something as the only choice doesn't necessarily mean refusing to acknowledge specific ways in which this choice is lacking - especially past the point where that choice already won and thus you're stuck with it, flaws and all, for four more years.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I do wonder if you guys are going to just coast on the left over fumes of Trumps former presidency. Like it will become "You can't criticize Biden because Trump will come back!".
    Looks like "orange man bad!" isn't going away any time soon.
    /s

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Why doesn’t it mean this:
    Why it doesn't? You got to expand your argument, because i fail to see your point.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Why it doesn't? You got to expand your argument, because i fail to see your point.
    Why don’t the same rules apply to you, as they do to the people you respond to? Why are you capable of having both criticism that is legitimate and criticism you disagree with, but others can’t?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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