Why is N'Zoth even a boss if melee exist in the game?

[msdos]

This is the main reason I'm switching to ranged DPS, not the N'zoth fight, but yeah.

Melee is past due now, they feel antiquated af in these raids, especially some of the less mobile ones like Frost DK. On Frost DK, some of the fights you can't even DPS properly, you have to practically play the game differently than everyone else and setup as if you were in arena, except you're on a boss, it's so FUBAR and you have to be a certain type of player to find that fun in PVE.

You can tell Blizzard is aware of it with the mobility Covenant abilities, but I'm sorry, they're bandaids. Unless you just plan on giving all melee a teleport, I don't see me DPSing on a melee ever again, unless it's really cushioned against mobility BS, like Subtlety or something.
I'd rather play a busted, nerfed ass fire mage, any spec of Warlock or anything at this point for raid dps purposes.

[Baneto]

You're lamenting the prevalence of melee in M+ but not in raiding, as if the two types of content are even remotely comparable. They're not, but if they were, it stands to reason you'd want melee-friendly, ranged unfriendly encounters. Wanna guess what kind of encounter Baleroc from Firelands is?



Ah yes -- the 'fun' paradigm. Good thing you've been able to define fun for the entirety of WoW's playerbase. BM Hunter bad... Shadow Priest good question mark? Stonks?

You can actually look at statistics on what classes are the most played to deduce what players find the most fun.

[Kaver]

You're lamenting the prevalence of melee in M+ but not in raiding, as if the two types of content are even remotely comparable. They're not, but if they were, it stands to reason you'd want melee-friendly, ranged unfriendly encounters. Wanna guess what kind of encounter Baleroc from Firelands is?

Ah yes -- the 'fun' paradigm. Good thing you've been able to define fun for the entirety of WoW's playerbase. BM Hunter bad... Shadow Priest good question mark? Stonks?

M+ was dominated by melee. Blizzard did something about it. They should also do something about raiding without turning every fight into Baleroc. I thought this was obvious.

Sorry I correct myself. I meant which are fun to me. But since fun is always subjective I though it was implied. The point is; no I'm not going to play a BM hunter in Shadowlands. But for maximum performance in raiding I would never pick a melee spec (except for Rogue) over a BM hunter. You're just crippling yourself by doing that.

[Relapses]

You can actually look at statistics on what classes are the most played to deduce what players find the most fun.

You can't be serious. There's a reason the term "flavor of the month" exists and it's not because certain classes are more objectively "fun" than others. There's countless examples I could use here but one I can think of off the top of my head is that I found 8.3 Fire Mage to be a degenerate and awful playstyle, wholly unfun and representative of the worst parts of competitive gaming in WoW. Despite this, the spec was also wildly imbalanced to the point where if I played my Mage and spec'd anything other than Fire I'd get accused of intentionally gimping myself and any group I joined. The result: If you played a Mage in 8.3, you played Fire. Yet if we applied your warped logic to this scenario you'd mistakenly conclude people must really find Fire to be the most fun spec ever invented.

[Kaver]

You can actually look at statistics on what classes are the most played to deduce what players find the most fun.

Not necessarily. BM hunter is the most played spec in the game but I know a lot of people who only play it because it's effective. Why would they play a melee class when they can play a BM hunter and put in half the effort while still having better performance. I can completely understand their point.

[Relapses]

M+ was dominated by melee. Blizzard did something about it. They should also do something about raiding without turning every fight into Baleroc. I thought this was obvious.

I'm sorry that I have to spell this out for you but the joke isn't that I think you want every fight to be Baleroc, it's that you think such a balance is even achievable. Vague criticisms that "melee sucks," have existed since the game launched yet somehow melee players still find raid spots, tier after tier, expansion after expansion. The reality isn't that Blizzard "favors" either ranged or melee, it's just that encounter design will always naturally sway in one direction or the other and players will constantly bitch that the grass is always greener on the other side.

Sorry I correct myself. I meant which are fun to me. But since fun is always subjective I though it was implied. The point is; no I'm not going to play a BM hunter in Shadowlands. But for maximum performance in raiding I would never pick a melee spec (except for Rogue) over a BM hunter. You're just crippling yourself by doing that.

Thor: Are you though?

[Subrias]

What is actually miserable is having to repeatedly root yourself for ~2 seconds (at least before secondary stats go nuts) in order to do your basic rotation. Playing melee is far more fluid - and on top of that, it has been clearly superior (sorry Rets and FDKs) in M+ since its introduction. If raids didn't favour ranged specs so heavily, almost no one would remain playing them, other than maybe BM hunter.

you know what ranged spec didnt have this issue... survival... good thing they got rid of it right?

[erifwodahs]

Welcome to world of warcraft where raids have literally shat on melee since Burning Crusade?
Crap in Wrath they gave rogues Killing Spree and there were a few bosses where us using it LITERALLY KILLED US.

Well, melee get fucked by mechanics but RDPS has to do all mechanics so we are good

[Baneto]

You can't be serious.

Of course I am, I dont believe people play classes they genuinely dislike only to suit a so called 'fotm'.

Personally I really like the playstyle of BM-hunter and its a great bonus you can do your entire rotation while moving on top of that.

Not necessarily. BM hunter is the most played spec in the game but I know a lot of people who only play it because it's effective. Why would they play a melee class when they can play a BM hunter and put in half the effort while still having better performance. I can completely understand their point.

I agree they need to balance specs out and that BM is in a strangely OP position.

[Relapses]

Of course I am, I dont believe people play classes they genuinely dislike only to suit a so called 'fotm'.

You're free to believe that but 15,000 Fire Mage parses compared to 450 Arcane Mage parses seems to indicate maybe...just maybe... some people are factoring more than just 'fun' into the equation when they decide what spec to play.

[Subrias]

Of course I am, I dont believe people play classes they genuinely dislike only to suit a so called 'fotm'.

Personally I really like the playstyle of BM-hunter and its a great bonus you can do your entire rotation while moving on top of that.


I agree they need to balance specs out and that BM is in a strangely OP position.

I mained hunter from until they killed SV. I hate BM.. always have. I dont like the idea of me being gimp and my pet doing the majority of my dmg. makes me feel weak AF. And MM is forced to sit and cast aimed shot. If i wanted to play a caster, I would have rolled a caster.

[Kumorii]

Problem is that if you give melee mechanics to deal with they most likely can't dps due to range. While ranged gets mechanics can still do dps du to their range.

[Kaver]

I'm sorry that I have to spell this out for you but the joke isn't that I think you want every fight to be Baleroc, it's that you think such a balance is even achievable. Vague criticisms that "melee sucks," have existed since the game launched yet somehow melee players still find raid spots, tier after tier, expansion after expansion. The reality isn't that Blizzard "favors" either ranged or melee, it's just that encounter design will always naturally sway in one direction or the other and players will constantly bitch that the grass is always greener on the other side.

I'm not asking for perfect balance. But Blizzard can small do changes. Just like they did in M+ by implementing the Storming affix and the AOE cap. A similar change could be to simply limit the number of ranged specs you could have in a raid group. Make an enraged mechanics which was triggered by having people standing outside of melee range and a the same time make a lot of mobility mechanics in melee range so ranged specs (expect BM of course) couldn't stand there. Blizzard have a lot a tools they can play with to balance raiding. But right now there is just too many downsides to being melee and too little to being ranged. As I've said, I cannot see any practical reason (other than class buffs) to bring a melee to a raid over a BM hunter. The hunter is just much more effective.

[Relapses]

Problem is that if you give melee mechanics to deal with they most likely can't dps due to range. While ranged gets mechanics can still do dps du to their range.

::Star Augar intensifies::

[erifwodahs]

Seriously, other than Rogue and cannot see a practically reason in terms of performance for why anybody would pick a melee over a BM hunter. The BM hunter can do the exact same thing as a melee but with a 40 yards range. As I see it, people who pick a melee over a BM hunter deliberately crippling themselves. But I guess that's also why we see BM being by far the most played spec in the game.

I mean it's also very simple to play with that might be a reason it's a ranged DH spec. where you click three buttons and just kill things. Source? 1.8k rating on DH with no fucking clue how to play it or play pvp at all in that regard actually. While pugging arena partners.
BM has stupid pet mechanics too.

[Kaver]

I mained hunter from until they killed SV. I hate BM.. always have. I dont like the idea of me being gimp and my pet doing the majority of my dmg. makes me feel weak AF. And MM is forced to sit and cast aimed shot. If i wanted to play a caster, I would have rolled a caster.

The thing is a spec which is neither a melee or a caster is just OP AF. Why would anyone cripple themselves with melee abilities or cast time if they can just play a class which can ignore both.

[msdos]

Melee is still getting new toys to address their mobility problems, the problems just don't seem fully realized yet. It sucks though because the ranged stuff they give to melee for PVE is always nerfed by 50% in PVP or just nerfed altogether. Theoretically each melee could have their own ranged finisher, examples:

Cold Heart for FDK, Toxin Bomb for Ass, Pistol Shot, Shuriken Toss, Divine Hammer that sticks into the ground and radiates holy dmg (forget what it was called), Shattering Throw, Keg Toss, etc, etc.
It can be done, you just need smart minds behind it and people who play their own game that they are paid to develop.

[Kaver]

Problem is that if you give melee mechanics to deal with they most likely can't dps due to range. While ranged gets mechanics can still do dps du to their range.

I never understood why they don't make more mechanics in melee range. Something that the melee dps and the tanks have to do in cooperation to deal with. That should be possible to design. No all mechanics have to be away from the boss.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean it's also very simple to play with that might be a reason it's a ranged DH spec. where you click three buttons and just kill things. Source? 1.8k rating on DH with no fucking clue how to play it or play pvp at all in that regard actually. While pugging arena partners.
BM has stupid pet mechanics too.

Arena is a different story than raiding

- - - Updated - - -

::Star Augar intensifies::

You can make the same video about ranged players and dodge mechanics Like if the ranged classes are standing too close to Maut and the Black Wings mechanic aims on them... damn... those tunneling ranged players will just not dodge anything.

Ranged players are very good at dealing with mechanics where they have to run away from the boss or group, but in general they suck at dodging mechanics that require just a little bit of mobility

[erifwodahs]

Of course I am, I dont believe people play classes they genuinely dislike only to suit a so called 'fotm'.

Personally I really like the playstyle of BM-hunter and its a great bonus you can do your entire rotation while moving on top of that.

But we do if we don't want to not gimp our group. I loved frost mage it's quite mobile and has ton of instant casts when you need to move and I am okay with fire, but I hate rune of power talent so ducking much. Concept is nice it just feels very very shit to be locked into an area so I eventually rerolled into different class, but not before suffering for quite a bit.
And ofc. it's just me but with my example but two thirds of my old guild would roll a stronger spec. and 3-4 players would reroll class entirely every tier just not to play the "crap" spec.

[Domixux]

You're free to believe that but 15,000 Fire Mage parses compared to 450 Arcane Mage parses seems to indicate maybe...just maybe... some people are factoring more than just 'fun' into the equation when they decide what spec to play.

You're pretty much applying double standards here. Just because you don't like the playstyle of fire mages, that doesn't mean everyone doesn't like it. Or maybe you talked to the 15,000 parsers and got the same opionion from everyone. Some (and I am willing to guess even many) people enjoy playing specs which are performing well, this doens't specially relate to the rotation or playstyle though. Of course there are some extrems to it, as there were specs in the past which performed well but were boring to play.