Keep PVE and PVP Gear Distinct In Battlegrounds

[Kagthul]

Equal playing field is not absurd. It's how good pvp games work.

"PvP game" is not a genre.

Retarded ones like wow or p2w games don't, and are pure garbage. I would never imagine playing CS against players who have more life, and do more damage. Where is the fun in that?

Shooters aren't RPGs, news at 11. Different genres are different. Sun comes up in the east, water is wet, etc etc etc.

Of course there is the retarded fun where you have more life and do more damages than your opponent so you can kill it easily. But that's just retarded fun for retarded players. Not really engaging for many people.

Which is why every time they get even a tiny bit closer to this "gear shouldn't matter" supposed-PvP-nirvana, participation in PvP, both casual and rated, utterly fucking collapses, right?

WAY more people want progression than not.

And, on top of that unless you're a complete fool, it never comes down to "being blown out" unless the person was too lazy to get a set of basic PvP gear first. Which is on them. (The stat spread between Honor Gear and Conquest gear is one tier - about 9% stats).

And my point is. It's not because they have a retarded pvp design for the last 15 years that they can't change that. Mostly when it's clearly easy to do.

Right, so they make the changes you seem to think are right, and then PvP participation collapses... and then what?

There were ~600,000 people on the ladder in the last season of WoD (NA). There were less than 60,000 on the ladder in the first Season of Legion, which is where we were closest to this "PvP nirvana". Thats a 90% dropoff. Poof. Up in smoke. And that was the highest participation season in Legion. The 3rd season was less than 45,000 on the ladder.

People with your opinion (gear-less nirvana with no rewards) are a microscopic fragment of people who like to PvP. You could all leave - every single one of you - and no one would even notice.

May have some validity in your history of even playing field. Always has been people who raid, do high arena will always have the advantage over players who don't. Been that way since TBC.

Right... so players who take the time to do both progression raiding AND the Glad Grind have an edge... Working as Intended.

If you participate in all aspects of the game, you will do better than people who only participate in some. News at 11, water is wet, etc etc.

And i say that as a guy who primarily PVPs for his end-game (Since Vanilla), and has played maybe ~50 arena matches and 3 Rated BGs, ever, and only steps foot in raids when friends need a spot-filler or ill do LFR once to see the story and then never again.

If someone is try-harding and doing Heroic+ Raids AND 2100+ ratings AND grinding Mythic +... i dont seriously expect to be even with that guy. And to expect such would be stupid and absurd.

OTOH, however, Blizz can (and has done an OK job in WoD and BfA, Legion was a shitshow) mitigate the gap. Instead of being a yawning chasm, it can be a small ravine.

That, IMO, should be the goal.

[Rinnegan2]

WAY more people want progression than not.

There were ~600,000 people on the ladder in the last season of WoD (NA). There were less than 60,000 on the ladder in the first Season of Legion, which is where we were closest to this "PvP nirvana". Thats a 90% dropoff. Poof. Up in smoke. And that was the highest participation season in Legion. The 3rd season was less than 45,000 on the ladder.

Now that's a relief! WoD *was* the "PvP nirvana". That was the expansion where you could prepare a fresh character for arena within a day. I didn't know about the numbers but now that you have shared them things are crystal clear. The last season of WoD was one of the - if not the - most populated season ever. The growth that game mode saw was immense. It must have doubled and then tripled up to 600.000 people on the ladder in season 3.

And then...

...Legion released.

There would have been 1.000.000 players on the ladder by Legion Season 2 ... but that never happened. As you said, 90% of those 600.000 people stopped playing (and *paying*) when they realized that Blizzard had removed the even playing field. Arena became a wasteland and has been ever since.

Sometimes, when walking my dog, I stand still for a moment and think about where Arena would be today, if they had just stopped reinventing the wheel in WoD.

One thing that gives me hope is that they could revive the game mode at the push of a button at any time, if they wanted to.

[Alexplode]

"game shouldn't be balanced around the activity that 90% of PvPers actually do"

You know Arena representation has never been a significant portion of end-game PvP, right?

The new system sounds perfectly fine to me.

You can get to what looks like normal-Raid iLevel through nothing but honor, and mythic iLevel from Conquest....

So.. you can PvP to get PvP gear. And your gear will still be OK for PvE.

I dont see the problem.

If anything, youll see casual PvErs filling up BGs (which is a good thing) get get decent iLevel gear to get into Mythic+ and early raiding.

More people queueing = better.

I don't think is "ok" considering how easy is puging heroic raiding (at least in legion, I didn't play bfa)

[Kagthul]

I don't think is "ok" considering how easy is puging heroic raiding (at least in legion, I didn't play bfa)

What does that have to do with anything?

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Now that's a relief! WoD *was* the "PvP nirvana". That was the expansion where you could prepare a fresh character for arena within a day.

Yeah, its an unpopular opinion but the gearing system (perhaps not the gear itself, but how you acquired it) in WoD was probably the best they'd ever settled on. You could get an entire set of Honor gear + 2 Conquest pieces in about six hours, and you didn't need to PvP if you didn't want to.

You could do just the weekly PvP Quests in Ashran + Daily First Win BGs and still hit the basic Conquest Cap, ensuring that even as a casual, you could get a full set of Conquest gear by about mid-season. People actually doing Arena would get it much faster (as their Conquest Cap was much higher).

The Variable iLevel made it so that PvP gear was good enough to step into basic raiding (with Conquest Gear) without being a liability, and you could do LFR in the Honor Gear without it being an issue. It also made it so that PvP gear was better for PvP (as PvE gear had an iLevel cap in instanced PvP). This got a little borked up because there were still 3 seasons but only two raid tiers, so in the final season the Honor gear was actual directly equal to Normal Raid gear. If there had been a third raid tier (as originally planned), it wouldn't have turne dout that way however. So the problem wasnt the system, it was cut content.

I didn't know about the numbers but now that you have shared them things are crystal clear. The last season of WoD was one of the - if not the - most populated season ever.

Actually, not even close. There were close to a million people on the ladder on average for most Seasons prior to WoD. Higher than that, even, in LK and Cata. But the number of people PLAYING was also higher then, as WoD very famously didnt keep even half of the initial rush populations, so 600k on a much smaller playerbase is still quite good.

The growth that game mode saw was immense. It must have doubled and then tripled up to 600.000 people on the ladder in season 3.

And then...

Nah, it was pretty consistent throughout WoD. The first season actually -technically- had more than Season 3, but a pretty large number of those were inactive by the time the season was even half over as the huge population falloff post-launch settled in.

...Legion released.

There would have been 1.000.000 players on the ladder by Legion Season 2 ... but that never happened. As you said, 90% of those 600.000 people stopped playing (and *paying*)

There's no evidence either way on whether they stopped playing entirely or not. Just that they stopped PvPing.

when they realized that Blizzard had removed the even playing field. Arena became a wasteland and has been ever since.

Sometimes, when walking my dog, I stand still for a moment and think about where Arena would be today, if they had just stopped reinventing the wheel in WoD.

One thing that gives me hope is that they could revive the game mode at the push of a button at any time, if they wanted to.

Id rather they just deleted Arena, honestly. Small scale tactical deathmatch is about as fun to most people as licking paste. If it stayed but was de-emphasised as the "correct" way to get higher-end PvP gear, then it could stay.

Thats why Arena's numbers never came close to matching the number of people who PvPed in BGs "seriously" (enough to get a full set of Honor Gear + a piece of Conquest or two from daily first-win Conquest, etc, or things like WG in Wrath).

Trying to make Arena "balanced" did a lot more damage than anything, really. Even the devs at the time admitted it. Chilton even went so far as to say it was the biggest mistake they ever made. Not sure i agree with that, but it was close.

But the moral of the story is that players (PvP or not) want progression. Fuck with that at your peril.

The argument really should be "how big should the gaps in power be" or similar. Because we've already seen the evidence that going effectively reward-less doesn't work.

[Queendom]

WoW is not, and has not ever been a "competitive-PvP" game, whatever that even means. "PvP game" is not a genre.

And i guess you've never heard of League of Legends (though i admit to being several seasons out of date on League). Where you have to level up to unlock rune slots, talents, etc. That can have a massive impact on how you play (go ahead and try to play an energy-based champ without having the energy regen runes.). Or Destiny 1/2. Or The Division 1/2. And those are just of the top of my head.

MMOs with PvP, almost without exception (i was going to say "without exception", but im sure there are obscure MMOs or ones im just not interested in that might be different) still have progression.

GW2? Gear matters. ESO? Gear matters. FF14? Gear matters.

Basically any cybersport game I played does not have any kind of "farm unrelated content to become stronger" mechanic. GW2, ESO and FF14 are not cybersport games, but WoW tries to be.

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And, on top of that unless you're a complete fool, it never comes down to "being blown out" unless the person was too lazy to get a set of basic PvP gear first. Which is on them. (The stat spread between Honor Gear and Conquest gear is one tier - about 9% stats).

Do you realize that PvP dependence on PvE is far beyond gear?

[Tarba]

"PvP game" is not a genre.
Shooters aren't RPGs, news at 11. Different genres are different. Sun comes up in the east, water is wet, etc etc etc.

Pvp is pvp. If you have a pvp component in your game, your game is also a pvp game.
Your second sentence means nothing. RPG games have many different forms. Dark souls is a rpg with a pvp component. Still they manage to let you fight players within your range. While it's allready mostly a skill game compared to wow mostly a retarded ilevel game.

Proclaim it can be easily fixed, than what do you propose Blizzard should do?

Battleground and arena stuff you can chose, lended by horde/alliance for those specific instancied contents.
Currency loot based on performances (damage/healing/point defence/capture), bonus on victory. Loot usable in outside world and pve.
Right now, no reason for either my main or reroll to participate in that content. Too much gear dependant to be fun either way. And for loot, pve gear is easier to get and more performant even in pvp.

[Rinnegan2]

But the moral of the story is that players (PvP or not) want progression.

MMORPG PvP:
40v40 Alterac Valley, 15v15 Arathi Basin, big scale World PvP events

esports PvP:
WoW Arena, CS, LoL, Dota

MMORPG PvPers want character progression.

esports PvPers want an even playing field.

as a consequence, you are 100% correct and I'm 100% correct.

But the moral of the story is that MMORPG players (PvP or not) want progression.

the rest is on Blizzard.

PS. the reason why I said "that's a relief" is that your PoV has always aligned with everyone else's on this topic. the only reason we are arguing here is an unfortunate misunderstanding, that I hope to have cleared up with my post.

personally, I want the discrepancy in power between players to be way WAY more than it currently is. someone in full mythic raid gear should absolutely always top the meters in BGs and be a wrecking ball in world pvp. I want crazy items again. super rare world drops that have incredibly unbalanced mechanics. like an AoE that does 90% of everyones HP. that's what makes MMORPG PvP fun. and you are damn right, because of arena, everything in WoW is now perfectly balanced. and - guess what - perfect balance in an MMORPG is not fun, like at all. it's actually imbalance that makes it fun. so Chilton was damn right. baking Arena into an MMORPG was a mistake. the solution to all of this is pretty simple. interested to see when Blizzard will make the move.

[Kagthul]

Basically any cybersport game I played does not have any kind of "farm unrelated content to become stronger" mechanic. GW2, ESO and FF14 are not cybersport games, but WoW tries to be.

No it doesn't. It DID, but it never succeeded.

but nice attempt at a goalpost shift (now its "cybersports" games and not "competitive PvP") and try at dodging the fact that plenty of other games with competitive modes still have progression

Do you realize that PvP dependence on PvE is far beyond gear?

Do you realize that the game was never intended to be, and isn't supposed to be "play the one fractional aspect of the game and do as well as someone who plays the entire game?"

Because going by your theory, you shoould be able to just play Pet Battles and nothing else and be just as geared as anyone else.

Did you even think this through?

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Pvp is pvp. If you have a pvp component in your game, your game is also a pvp game.

You're confining PvP games to CvC (character vs character). You can have PvP activities where the players never see each other. Tough concept for you, i know.

Your second sentence means nothing. RPG games have many different forms. Dark souls is a rpg with a pvp component. Still they manage to let you fight players within your range. While it's allready mostly a skill game compared to wow mostly a retarded ilevel game.

But there are still stats and progression in Dark Souls and you can and will outright obliterate people due to your stats.

So, your one example supports my argument, not yours. Well played.

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as a consequence, you are 100% correct and I'm 100% correct.



the rest is on Blizzard.

PS. the reason why I said "that's a relief" is that your PoV has always aligned with everyone else's on this topic. the only reason we are arguing here is an unfortunate misunderstanding, that I hope to have cleared up with my post.

I'd say i disagree with the part where you assign people in the "Arena" crowd automatically to the "dont want gear to matter" crowd.

The only place ive ever encountered people who spout that are on forums. Ive never actually met anyone in-game or out of my friends IRL (a number of whom are 2400+ tryhards and have been since TBC) who thinks that. And ive met a lot of people (been playing since the Vanilla beta with few breaks). Still anecdotal, but it speaks to the relative rarity.

Most of them are there precisely because of the gear. Because its faster to get a full set of CQ gear doing Arena than just doing first-win bonuses. (Well was, BfA changed the whole system up, and the loot from WQs made the equivalent of "Honor" gear pointless). But the higher your rating = the bigger your CQ cap = faster gear acqiusition. In WoD in particular, people did a lot of Arena simply because doing the Arena weekly (X wins, IIRC) gave you a box with CQ gear in it, as did the Rated BG weekly (3 wins), so in addition to getting rating and getting gear faster because of a larger CQ cap, you could get 2 more free pieces for just wins, +1 from the Ashran General, and, if you were REALLY interesetd, the FFA Arena from the Arena/Gladiator building.

[kenn9530]

snip

WoW is not a progression based system, gear is thrown at you so there is very little value in it. A skilled player cares more about going after achievements and cares very little about the gear since its ususally so easy to come by.

PvP should just remain skill and not depend on having better gear than the other player. Mythic raiding should be the only place to earn the best gear available and PvP should have it own stats to keep everything as balanced and equal as possible, when you add gear advantages to PvP then its less about skill and just who has the better gear.

The people who want gear to give an advantage in PvP are the problem because they dont have enough skill to win otherwise and complain all the time.

The only time PvP has been remotely balanced is when PvP scaling was introduced.

[Magical Mudcrab]

\Sadly, I have come back to the Dev's enabling pve gear to surpass pvp specific gear...yikes!

Just a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I contend that those who play within the battlegrounds should have the superior gear (pvp) to those who focus more upon the pve content of the game. If I were to go into a pve raid or mythic would I be wearing my pvp gear as best in slot?

Rated PvP rewards, from what I'm aware, will likely follow the trend of being somewhere between Heroic and Mythic in terms of actual power, and PvE will likely still be necessary for PvP. The sad fact is that this is a consequence of lacking PvP-specific secondary's which have historically acted as a counter balance for the higher item levels of PvE (i.e.: PvP power). However, this is only rated rewards, and the BG rewards seem quite grim. Currently, an upgrade system is being put in place for Battlegrounds rewards, which upgrades items to the equivalent of Mythic+3 quality, which is not great, and will take over 50 hours to farm a full set from just Battlegrounds. Casual PvP will still likely necessitate PvE activities to be performant.

[Rinnegan2]

I'd say i disagree with the part where you assign people in the "Arena" crowd automatically to the "dont want gear to matter" crowd.

oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. once you have put in the time you do want gear to matter. I mean, you literally spent months grinding out your gear, of course you would be on the fence if anyone was to circumvent the grind and get it for free. if the system makes gear matter, then people - who are playing - want gear to matter after the grind. but it was never about the people who are playing. it's about the 540.000 players who stopped playing.

[Magical Mudcrab]

The people who want gear to give an advantage in PvP are the problem because they dont have enough skill to win otherwise and complain all the time.

The only time PvP has been remotely balanced is when PvP scaling was introduced.

Casual PvP, through things like random BGs, should not have the expectation of being as balanced as Rated PvP. As much as people might not like to hear it, random BGs really just aren't fun if there isn't the "stupid factor" of someone cheesing the game in some way through unique builds, creative use of PvP talents, or even just seeing someone terrorize a newbie group by out gearing them by a good 3 raid tiers. Not everything in the game has to be 100% fair and balance at every second and every hour of every day in every form of content.

[Queendom]

No it doesn't. It DID, but it never succeeded.

but nice attempt at a goalpost shift (now its "cybersports" games and not "competitive PvP") and try at dodging the fact that plenty of other games with competitive modes still have progression

Yes it still does, because arena torunament exist, which is of course not held on live realms, because gearing in PvP is a joke.

"cybersport" is equal to "cometitive PvP" to me.

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Do you realize that the game was never intended to be, and isn't supposed to be "play the one fractional aspect of the game and do as well as someone who plays the entire game?"

Because going by your theory, you shoould be able to just play Pet Battles and nothing else and be just as geared as anyone else.

Duh, I don't care about other aspects, I don't need to realize anything here.

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The only place ive ever encountered people who spout that are on forums. Ive never actually met anyone in-game or out of my friends IRL (a number of whom are 2400+ tryhards and have been since TBC) who thinks that. And ive met a lot of people (been playing since the Vanilla beta with few breaks). Still anecdotal, but it speaks to the relative rarity.

Most of them are there precisely because of the gear. Because its faster to get a full set of CQ gear doing Arena than just doing first-win bonuses. (Well was, BfA changed the whole system up, and the loot from WQs made the equivalent of "Honor" gear pointless). But the higher your rating = the bigger your CQ cap = faster gear acqiusition. In WoD in particular, people did a lot of Arena simply because doing the Arena weekly (X wins, IIRC) gave you a box with CQ gear in it, as did the Rated BG weekly (3 wins), so in addition to getting rating and getting gear faster because of a larger CQ cap, you could get 2 more free pieces for just wins, +1 from the Ashran General, and, if you were REALLY interesetd, the FFA Arena from the Arena/Gladiator building.

How much do these people enjoy spending weeks in Azshara raid just to get the farm azerite essence?

[kenn9530]

Casual PvP, through things like random BGs, should not have the expectation of being as balanced as Rated PvP. As much as people might not like to hear it, random BGs really just aren't fun if there isn't the "stupid factor" of someone cheesing the game in some way through unique builds, creative use of PvP talents, or even just seeing someone terrorize a newbie group by out gearing them by a good 3 raid tiers. Not everything in the game has to be 100% fair and balance at every second and every hour of every day in every form of content.

im mainly on about competitive PvP that should be balanced around all chars being on an equal playing field, normal BGs and stuff dont really matter since thats the more casual side, but rated content in PvP should give everyone an even playing field by having everyone regardless of gear the same amount of stats.

[Tarba]

You're confining PvP games to CvC (character vs character). You can have PvP activities where the players never see each other. Tough concept for you, i know.

Okay. That sentence means absolutely nothing, and does not bring anything to that conversation. I guess it's answering for the sake of answering. Pvp is pvp. I'm not confining anything. I wouldn't have played aoe2 or war3 online, if the guy facing me started with bonus of damages and life to his units.

But there are still stats and progression in Dark Souls and you can and will outright obliterate people due to your stats.

So, your one example supports my argument, not yours. Well played.
.

... my god... That's pretty amazingly dumb. From the argument to the conclusion.
Dark souls has stat progression. Yes. It's a RPG. The stat progression depends of your level. The attribution of stats depends of how you want to attribute them.
-> The people you fight are within your level range. So the stat difference is minimal. There is even a progession range to avoid twinks.
So no. It does not support your argument. It proves that some people made a rpg with a pvp component thinking beforehand "how not to make it retarded?".

[Kagthul]

Yes it still does, because arena torunament exist, which is of course not held on live realms, because gearing in PvP is a joke.

"cybersport" is equal to "cometitive PvP" to me.

Lookit them goalposts FLY!

You dont get to redefine things to suit your argument after youve lost the argument.

Duh, I don't care about other aspects, I don't need to realize anything here.

Apparently you do. Because if you dont participate in the entire game, you will not succeed as well as someone who does. Working. As. Fucking. Intended.

How much do these people enjoy spending weeks in Azshara raid just to get the farm azerite essence?

This is relevant to.... what exactly?

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Okay. That sentence means absolutely nothing,

The mere fact that you dont understand a very basic premise means you probably shouldn't be participating in this conversation because you dont grasp basic concepts.

and does not bring anything to that conversation.

Thats rich, given the crap you're about to spew.

I guess it's answering for the sake of answering. Pvp is pvp. I'm not confining anything. I wouldn't have played aoe2 or war3 online, if the guy facing me started with bonus of damages and life to his units.

Because those are RTS games. Not a progression-based RPG. Its almost like... different genres are different. News at 11, water is wet, sun in the east, etc etc.

... my god... That's pretty amazingly dumb. From the argument to the conclusion.
Dark souls has stat progression. Yes. It's a RPG. The stat progression depends of your level. The attribution of stats depends of how you want to attribute them.
-> The people you fight are within your level range. So the stat difference is minimal. There is even a progession range to avoid twinks.
So no. It does not support your argument. It proves that some people made a rpg with a pvp component thinking beforehand "how not to make it retarded?".

You might want to check what you believe here since there are literally hundreds of hours of Dark Souls videos on YouTube that clearly show people trolling the PvP with huge characters that effectively one-shot people (or lock them into hit animations and killing them in 3-5 hits where they cant respond).

THere's an entire video series where the guy farmed weapons and armor that the mobs used, and he stands motionless like the mobs or meanders in the same patterns the mobs do, and then when people run by him cluelessly, he one-shots them. (Sometimes he lets them run around for a while, often while standing right next to him. Its quite funny).

Get it through what passes for your brain:

"PvP" is not a genre. It is an ACTIVITY of ANY genre that pits the actions of one player against those of another.

You can have PvP where literally no one fights anyone else. Ive led successful BGs against massively overgeared Alliance teams (to victory) by simply playing the objectives and refusing to engage them. And because they were all focused on "Muh PvP", theyd endlessly chase our skirmish team while the rest of us ran around behind them and back-capped every node.

The way PvP works in any game will depend on the genre.

In MMOs in particular, people are NOT OK with their progression not mattering. The numbers do not lie. Period. Whether you like it or not. Every time they shift closer to this supposed "gear shouldn't matter" bullshit you keep insisting is "the way", the less people participate in PvP. Period. Full Stop. It isn't wanted. If thats an issue for you, go play something else. Quit trying to force yourself (a square peg) into a round hole.

Most MMO type games that have PvP have progression, and it matters and is impactfull. GW2. ESO. Destiny. The Division. list goes on.

If you want a gear-less nirvana, RTS and Shooter games are ----------> that way. Youll enjoy them a lot more, and thats fine.

You dont like MMO PvP. So go do something else, instead of continuing to whinge. Blizzard isnt going to do what you want. Because doing that will GUT the PvP community and they cant and wont spend dev hours on an activity that like 3% of people will do. Thats not how this works.

[Tarba]

The mere fact that you dont understand a very basic premise means you probably shouldn't be participating in this conversation because you dont grasp basic concepts.



Thats rich, given the crap you're about to spew.

Yep, insulting because you have nothing to say. Not really surprising. Those sentences still mean nothing, and bring nothing. K K.

Because those are RTS games. Not a progression-based RPG. Its almost like... different genres are different. News at 11, water is wet, sun in the east, etc etc.

So other games with a pvp component that are not retarded. Unlike wow.

You might want to check what you believe here since there are literally hundreds of hours of Dark Souls videos on YouTube that clearly show people trolling the PvP with huge characters that effectively one-shot people (or lock them into hit animations and killing them in 3-5 hits where they cant respond).

THere's an entire video series where the guy farmed weapons and armor that the mobs used, and he stands motionless like the mobs or meanders in the same patterns the mobs do, and then when people run by him cluelessly, he one-shots them. (Sometimes he lets them run around for a while, often while standing right next to him. Its quite funny).

Yes... and?
You are watching compilations of winning sequences of a skilled pvp guy against randoms and thinks it's remotely close to the horseshit ilevel we have all the time in wow?
Also are you saying that someone who use gear to look like a mob is stronger than someone else because it tricks them?

[QUOTE=Kagthul;52802812]
Get it through what passes for your brain:

"PvP" is not a genre. It is an ACTIVITY of ANY genre that pits the actions of one player against those of another.

Who cares the way you label it? Nobody. Don't change anything.

You can have PvP where literally no one fights anyone else. Ive led successful BGs against massively overgeared Alliance teams (to victory) by simply playing the objectives and refusing to engage them. And because they were all focused on "Muh PvP", theyd endlessly chase our skirmish team while the rest of us ran around behind them and back-capped every node.

The way PvP works in any game will depend on the genre.

In MMOs in particular, people are NOT OK with their progression not mattering. The numbers do not lie. Period. Whether you like it or not. Every time they shift closer to this supposed "gear shouldn't matter" bullshit you keep insisting is "the way", the less people participate in PvP. Period. Full Stop. It isn't wanted. If thats an issue for you, go play something else. Quit trying to force yourself (a square peg) into a round hole.

Most MMO type games that have PvP have progression, and it matters and is impactfull. GW2. ESO. Destiny. The Division. list goes on.

If you want a gear-less nirvana, RTS and Shooter games are ----------> that way. Youll enjoy them a lot more, and thats fine.

You dont like MMO PvP. So go do something else, instead of continuing to whinge. Blizzard isnt going to do what you want. Because doing that will GUT the PvP community and they cant and wont spend dev hours on an activity that like 3% of people will do. Thats not how this works.

Yeah I don't like that and many, many many people don't like that either.
It's good for "players" with the stupid gray kill mentality, that's it.
Else it's pretty much a very boring and stupid concept.
Right now there is absolutely not a single reason to bring a reroll in pvp.
- You get killed easily
- Ilevel pvp is not fun.
- Loot is useless

And for the main.
- Ilevel pvp is not fun.
- Loot is useless

In all cases, you have to push pve content to be able to pvp correctly.

Most mmos have a retarded pvp component.
And no : "The way PvP works in any game will depend on the genre."
That's completely false.
The way PvP works in any game will depend of the game.
Amazing discovery right? It's not because you make a mmo that you have to put stupid ilevel pvp battles like that.

Ho. And at least gw2 and destiny put everyone on the same level in pvp.
Stuff maters, of course, but they chose to not put a retarded pvp system like wow. INCREDIBLE
Next time you pick examples to support your limited view of something, at leeast make sure that half of them don't go against you.

[Queendom]

Lookit them goalposts FLY!

You dont get to redefine things to suit your argument after youve lost the argument.

What argument did I lose precisely?

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This is relevant to.... what exactly?

To gear, obviously, because it's the same thing.

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Apparently you do. Because if you dont participate in the entire game, you will not succeed as well as someone who does. Working. As. Fucking. Intended.

Well, I don't care about the entire game, no matter how hard you try.

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If you want a gear-less nirvana, RTS and Shooter games are ----------> that way. Youll enjoy them a lot more, and thats fine.

Sure, that's exactly what I do, but I also want to see this implemented in WoW, because I like its PvP (or BGs, to be precise).

[loras]

Pvp battlegrounds and arenas should be with the same specific items people can chose from before entering. With enought choices of stat to make Every one viable.
No ilevel and no pve gear. And not something to unlock to be more performant than someone else in it.
Any pvp game when you are more powerfull than your opponent is retarded.

This, to some extent, if genuinely fair (and thus interesting) pvp is desired.
However it is still an rpg, so some genuine progression is required.

Frankly it'd be best if the pve crowd got the sticks out of their asses and would stop whinging about how pve gear should be flashier (trinkets), more powerful(final boss items) and more flavorful than pvp items.
Additionally more considration should be given to pvp wins requiring another one's loss, thus rewards that are easy to acquire to some might be near impossible to others to progress to. As opposed to pve which is static and thus nigh unloseable if one is of a mind to defeat something.

[Queendom]

Most MMO type games that have PvP have progression, and it matters and is impactfull. GW2. ESO. Destiny. The Division. list goes on.

As I've already said, none of these games is a cybersport game, but WoW tries to be, yet its cybersport part (arena tournament) does not have anything in common with the real game, happening in sterile realm without any gear or farm. I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be implemeted in base game.

If you just saw a Dota 2 tournament and decide you liked this game, you simply download it and play, having exactly the same abilities as any pro-player. Of course, your skill is not the same, but the opportunity is exactly equal. You can't do the same with WoW, because the game played on Arena Tournament does not exist outside of it.