Classic->TBC

[Heathy]

being wrong about a percentage doesn't mean that much my man, you believe whatever you want to believe, and stay as closed minded as you want to be. i'm sure everything will work out just fine. derailing threads with inane arguments is sure working out for you.

I'm far too blazed to be emotional, either way everything is completely fine with me. when it comes to tbc, I just hope ppl can continue on, it would be a shame to stop after naxx and have to restart. I probably wouldn't start a new char I know that much.

the only logical argument is whether or not a server as a whole moves to tbc so that the community/economy is maintained intact and everything just continues on as it did. or there is 58 premades / character copies, communities being split and rejumbled as various different guilds move to completely different tbc servers. bleh. the logical way this works is if a server just moves to tbc as it did in the past. otherwise how are they going to be able to manage some sort of clusterfuck servers with no economy or mass guild exoduses. bleh, exploits with premades, which i'm sure there would be, pre mades on a test server, but a live server? too many questions, not enough logical answers. I kinda like the idea of just continuing on, challenging the same guilds to wowlogs dick measuring contests, it would probably feel weird to end up on a completely different server with completely different guilds.

I guess the question really is when is it time to move a server over? 6 months of naxx? 8 - 12, years later? at what point is classic 'done' and its time to move on thats really it.

[Hinastorm]

Meh in my eyes let it happen. The fact that we are transitioning into a 25/10 man raid style away from a 40/20 man, most guilds will be 'broken' up one way or another anyway. The most 'hardcore' guilds won't move at all considering they already have it made through hours of farming. I personally believe a fresh start will be the best experience *for the average player* though, simply with how much items on the AH are going to be at the very start if nothing changes.

Also, you think bots are bad now? Just wait until everyone and their dog needs HUNDREDS of primals to craft their pre-raid gear. GOOD-LUCK trying to tag mobs with all those bots with how blizzard acts on them. And GOOD-LUCK trying to just buy them off the AH if you aren't insanely rich from classic. At the very least with a wipe, you can make really good gold (comparatively speaking) from dailies so if you can't farm them yourself you can at least buy them with that money.

They really need to consider doing something about primal farming. It's going to be so stupid.

I'd be A-ok with them adding alot more spots to farm them. Fuck no changes.

[Synical123]

This is a legit question but why would gold need to be reset? How would a BC server with transfers be any different than someone who didn't play Vanilla and joined in BC?

I've written this before so I'll try to be quick with this while still making my point.

As of right now, the average person is sitting on thousands of gold. Go into any random GDKP run and you will see people bidding 10-30 thousand gold on hot ticket items as we speak. What this means, is when hot ticket items or something that is really scarce but valuable in the AH or out in the world, that price is going to match what the 'average' player can afford.

Let me use a couple of examples. Back when classic launched, when the edge masters grieves dropped you could sell them for about 400-700g. A good price back then. You could realistically go out and farm that gold by yourself in a couple days and buy them if you were a fresh level 60. The price it goes for now is anywhere from 3-7k depending on the server. At the very start this price would have been almost IMPOSSIBLE to hit without going EXTREMELY deep into gold farming. This is also shown with how expensive prices were for items back in the real vanilla compared to today, almost everything is at least doubled if not blown through the roof. This is because of inflation and how much gold we have.

Okay I explained this to show you the issues with going into TBC with this amount of inflation.

Let's say you start the game off in TBC with no gold from classic. You hit end level. The MAIN way to make gold (at least back then) was through dailies. Dailies net you around 10ish gold (it varies) so the average person can make like 200ish gold per day off of them. Prices can be so inflated to the point where dailies are not realistically a viable way for you to farm gold now. If prices of one gem, or one primal is at 100g each, or god forbid even higher like 200g, then it is going to take you months and months of farming dailies to get to the point where you can purchase some of these items yourself.

Okay, so for a new player dailies won't be as valuable of a gold farm, so what do you do? You sell things on the AH for those crazy prices. But in order to farm these things you are going to be competing...a lot.... in order to mine/herb/farm motes you are going to have to be quick. But if you are a fresh character you know you will barely be able to afford your standard 60% flyer. Meanwhile everyone who farmed in classic is going to be sitting pretty on that 280% flyer mount.

A new player is just simply not going to be able to compete for nodes on their server flying around on a 60% speed. Not to even mention the amount of bots that will taking over the primal farms but that's a different discussion to be had.

Basically this almost suffocates a new player out of almost all of their farming capabilities simply because they didn't want to participate in a version of a game they didn't like. Dailies will be a waste of time if you can only purchase a single or even half an item a day that you need (some classes need upwards of 200-250 primals to get a full crafted set). Farming them yourself will also be hell moving at a staggering 220% slower flying speed. Honestly the only option to even remain relevant at that point is to buy gold illegally to get epic flyer so you can at least farm semi-decently.

Now if you wipe the gold this issue will be irrelevant until we get to a stage in the game where we are now with people running around on average of a couple thousand. But at that point, the people who wanted to play tbc will likely already be caught up enough to a point where they might have already replaced all their crafted gear and it is no longer an issue.

[Heathy]

its still hyperbolic, you can put the cost of edgemasters down to what a guild bank could pay for them (I use aged cores and saved myself 5k gold) it is much easier to grind gold in classic this time around due to various things actually, there is a lot more demand for things because there are on average more guilds raiding, on average ppls gear is a whole lot better my gear is a lot better than what I managed to get the first time. if anything is different this time its probably the amount of bots. it doesn't really matter how much gold any one person has (mmos are balanced for this inevitability), the value of an item is still tied to its rarity, but not many things in this game are extremely rare most items are farm-able or come from a respawning mob. nothing can ever be so rare that the price of it is many times higher than the amount of gold you could grind in the same time it would take you to go out and grind that item. an example, if it takes you 1hr to grind 100g and it takes you 30 minutes to grind 1 primal. the cost of that primal can't be more than 50g. or its not worth paying more than what its actually worth, in relation to how hard it would be to just go get it yourself.

regardless, the heroic lock was a daily reset, you can farm those for gear and gold. if you can DE green boe's on an alt you can collect your own enchanting mats to save gold on enchants. if you have a character that can make pots/flasks and cook food buffs, you barely need to rely on anyone else, farm heroics for badge gear, do karazhan for a month, I don't think you NEED crafted gear for t4, I'm almost certain that you can progress through t4 and get ready for t5 without crafted gear. you can clear karazhan and heroics without crafted gear in otherwords, its not paramount in the sense that the entire fate of the game depends on it. its just one thing that isn't that important there is other gear that can be used or farmed in lieu of getting the mats for crafted gear. it might seem important to someone who is worried they won't be able to play enough or compete enough for the mats to make something they want to make. but it is not going to be the make or break of your progression. I think my priest only ended up with 1 crafted piece that came from ssc. so I didn't have crafted gear for t4, I used the dungeon set to heal heroics and karazhan and slowly collected t4 over the course of several months. I remember farming heroics because priests don't grind so well but healing dungeon runs made enough gold to inch me toward the 5k but I had t5 before I had the epic flying skill. it took me a while to farm it. gun farming 5k gold on a holy priest would be extremely time consuming, but other classes are much better at it ofc, some ppl are not going to be raking in the gold simple due to the principle.

[erifwodahs]

If there are Fresh TBC servers with no transfers I am ok with other servers where players retain their wealth.
It would be nice to get a pre-patch thing, where you can level with tbc changes and BE and Draenei available so you can start leveling on that said server a month before TBC launches so your server would not be so much behind others, but if we get just a fresh tbc server it won't be the worst thing anyway.
If I have to play with whatever classic players have gathered over two years I might aswell wait for WotLK where the real power reset happens.

[ymirsson]

If there are Fresh TBC servers with no transfers I am ok with other servers where players retain their wealth.
It would be nice to get a pre-patch thing, where you can level with tbc changes and BE and Draenei available so you can start leveling on that said server a month before TBC launches so your server would not be so much behind others, but if we get just a fresh tbc server it won't be the worst thing anyway.
If I have to play with whatever classic players have gathered over two years I might aswell wait for WotLK where the real power reset happens.

Playing now to have stuff when TBC happens does not occur to you?

[Synical123]

Playing now to have stuff when TBC happens does not occur to you?

Certainly you aren't suggesting you can just 'catch up' in levels, gear, and gold at this point in classic.

[ymirsson]

Certainly you aren't suggesting you can just 'catch up' in levels, gear, and gold at this point in classic.

Why would i suggest that people ought to have the same amount of stuff by playing half the time as other people. I'm just reminding people that IF we get a TBC transition without some kind of reset (which is what i prefer and which is not impossible as an option(and i'm not even some kind of AH mogul, i just would prefer not to lose all my progress, recipes, chump change and attachment to character)) then it would be smart to start leveling and farming shit now instead of whining on the forums about being behind.

[erifwodahs]

Certainly you aren't suggesting you can just 'catch up' in levels, gear, and gold at this point in classic.

On my Blood Elf Mage on a yet to be opened fresh TBC server with trasnferst from classic realms disabled? No.
On a current classic server? I could, but I don't want to. It does not have TBC talents or TBC QoL. Or Blood Elfs. TBC is classic for me while classic is like early access with features missing.

[Synical123]

Why would i suggest that people ought to have the same amount of stuff by playing half the time as other people. I'm just reminding people that IF we get a TBC transition without some kind of reset (which is what i prefer and which is not impossible as an option(and i'm not even some kind of AH mogul, i just would prefer not to lose all my progress, recipes, chump change and attachment to character)) then it would be smart to start leveling and farming shit now instead of whining on the forums about being behind.

I don't believe anyone is whining here at all. He simply said if there is no fresh option and he has to play with whatever the classic crowd brings in then he would rather not play. He isn't asking to be 'caught up' to them he just prefers if there was a fresh option.

If he is looking forward to a fresh option, then your suggestion to 'start leveling now' is just dumb lol.

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On my Blood Elf Mage on a yet to be opened fresh TBC server with trasnferst from classic realms disabled? No.
On a current classic server? I could, but I don't want to. It does not have TBC talents or TBC QoL. Or Blood Elfs. TBC is classic for me while classic is like early access with features missing.

I agree with you, I'm just asking what the other poster is on about.

[erifwodahs]

Playing now to have stuff when TBC happens does not occur to you?

Well, I don't want to play classic. I don't ask for others to loose their progress either.
I just want a clean slate server and maybe a early access TBC server so that new realm with 90% of belf population is not a month behind on raids because of leveling, if that early access happens or not does not really change a lot for me, it would be just a nice thing.

[Mayia]

If all classic servers are upgraded to TBC, this means we might get a single PvP server and a single PVE server per region for people who want to keep playing classic 1-60 and allow one time free character copies to it before TBC is released.

The good thing about this is it would allow for natural progression while making sure none of the current list of servers per region get deserted and it would consolidate all players wanting to continue playing classic into a single server.

The issue with this is that most likely every region will get a new single PvP server and a single PVE server for 1-60 classic BUT they will not be able to let it start in phases since they will likely let players copy their existing characters to it to allow them to keep playing classic after all servers progress to BC. This sucks because we won’t see a new AQ event but it means it won’t matter if people are fully decked out in top gear.

What are your thoughts on this?

I've been trying to make a case that Classic should last longer.. just because it'll be really hard to restart this.
or if server splits happen itll be wonky.. but nobody listens to me
I really want everyone to have all the time they need in classic.. and abit extra so when tbc launches everyone wants it bad. (even if later they return to classic)

[ymirsson]

I don't believe anyone is whining here at all. He simply said if there is no fresh option and he has to play with whatever the classic crowd brings in then he would rather not play. He isn't asking to be 'caught up' to them he just prefers if there was a fresh option.

If he is looking forward to a fresh option, then your suggestion to 'start leveling now' is just dumb lol.

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I agree with you, I'm just asking what the other poster is on about.

All i am saying is that people can be less behind if they start playing as soon as possible. Like now, for example. Most people if seen commenting about a fresh server or restricted transfers or similar don't say "i only wait for TBC" they say "i only want to play TBC and people coming from classic being ahead is stopping me from doing that."

As if those people would be not hindered by the same people that dominate classic economically right now, which will be most likely the same in BC. Not because of gold and resources they might bring from classic, but because they set different goals, i'd assume.

[Synical123]

All i am saying is that people can be less behind if they start playing as soon as possible. Like now, for example. Most people if seen commenting about a fresh server or restricted transfers or similar don't say "i only wait for TBC" they say "i only want to play TBC and people coming from classic being ahead is stopping me from doing that."

As if those people would be not hindered by the same people that dominate classic economically right now, which will be most likely the same in BC. Not because of gold and resources they might bring from classic, but because they set different goals, i'd assume.

You are semi-right kind of. First off, some people might simply want to roll belf/draenai and simply do not want to play anything else. Some people might not want to play classic whatsoever. I don't think I heard any arguments specifically stating "THESE PEOPLE ARE AHEAD OF ME AND THAT'S NOT OKAY", unless there is a post somewhere I missed.

The only thing I have heard, and the only thing I have been pushing for is a gold reset. This really has nothing to do with who is 'ahead' of me or not. Assuming I was a brand new player to the game (I'm not I am probably further ahead than most), people being 'ahead' of me will not cause any 'issues' to my gameplay.

For example, if I'm level 1 at the start of tbc and everyone else on my server has full t3, epic riding, max professions, etc etc.... this won't hinder any gameplay of mine once I hit end level. The issue here, that I see at least, is simply gold. I have layed out above why I believe this is the case. I don't personally believe it's an issue of "This person has more stuff than me this is not okay" but more of an issue of "This server has an inflation problem and it is going to severely effect those who just come into tbc for tbc/people who aren't farming gold 24/7".

[ymirsson]

You are semi-right kind of. First off, some people might simply want to roll belf/draenai and simply do not want to play anything else. Some people might not want to play classic whatsoever. I don't think I heard any arguments specifically stating "THESE PEOPLE ARE AHEAD OF ME AND THAT'S NOT OKAY", unless there is a post somewhere I missed.

The only thing I have heard, and the only thing I have been pushing for is a gold reset. This really has nothing to do with who is 'ahead' of me or not. Assuming I was a brand new player to the game (I'm not I am probably further ahead than most), people being 'ahead' of me will not cause any 'issues' to my gameplay.

For example, if I'm level 1 at the start of tbc and everyone else on my server has full t3, epic riding, max professions, etc etc.... this won't hinder any gameplay of mine once I hit end level. The issue here, that I see at least, is simply gold. I have layed out above why I believe this is the case. I don't personally believe it's an issue of "This person has more stuff than me this is not okay" but more of an issue of "This server has an inflation problem and it is going to severely effect those who just come into tbc for tbc/people who aren't farming gold 24/7".

I see your point, but i think the inflation problem would be less of a question of how much gets brought into TBC by existing purses but how fast dedicated players can generate even more by playing, farming, controlling the AH. The possibility of capping gold transfers or similar is there, but in my opinion does not adress the problem at the right point.

On top of that, i don't have any economical problems in classic, even though i am the laziest farmer i can imagine, because i have social contacts helping me. As a single player there might arise problems, but they wouldn't be restricted to gold or mats, so one should have a guild or similar anyway.

[Synical123]

I see your point, but i think the inflation problem would be less of a question of how much gets brought into TBC by existing purses but how fast dedicated players can generate even more by playing, farming, controlling the AH. The possibility of capping gold transfers or similar is there, but in my opinion does not adress the problem at the right point.

On top of that, i don't have any economical problems in classic, even though i am the laziest farmer i can imagine, because i have social contacts helping me. As a single player there might arise problems, but they wouldn't be restricted to gold or mats, so one should have a guild or similar anyway.

I hear this argument a lot that basically boils down to "Why nuke gold when people are going to make it back anyway". This is what I am trying to explain. Whenever it gets back to a point where it gets inflated again (it's going to happen this is inevitable), it's objectively going to be in a better place than it would have been if you didn't. I'll make up random numbers here but if a server has an excess of 10 million gold going in as opposed to 0, if tbc gets inflated by 10 million gold in a month, it's still going to be 10 million less than if you did nothing. That's an extremely simple way to put it but that's part of what I'm saying.

The amount of time it will take for it to be in an inflated state again, allows people who are newer to have better outlets of farming gold that TBC has to offer (dailies for example).

The economy issue in classic might not seem that bad to you right now, because the systems in how to obtain gold, and what you need to buy specifically, and how you gather materials is COMPLETELY different. Arguably tbc's greatest resource at the very start is primals. Primals aren't like arcane crystals, or herbs in classic where you can just go into an instance and farm them by yourself 24/7. You have to go out in the world to farm these limited supply items. If they are limited the prices are going to be high. This has happened too many times on other servers. When the prices get too high, then raw gold farming becomes irrelevant which basically makes dailies worthless which is a major hit to new players. The only way to make gold at this point is to make it from other players (boosts/mats/AH/etc). And if you walk into tbc with no flying and you are trying to compete with them, your life is going to be a living hell.

Relying on other people to make your gold for you, especially as a new player, is not a valid argument in my eyes.

[ymirsson]

I hear this argument a lot that basically boils down to "Why nuke gold when people are going to make it back anyway". This is what I am trying to explain. Whenever it gets back to a point where it gets inflated again (it's going to happen this is inevitable), it's objectively going to be in a better place than it would have been if you didn't. I'll make up random numbers here but if a server has an excess of 10 million gold going in as opposed to 0, if tbc gets inflated by 10 million gold in a month, it's still going to be 10 million less than if you did nothing. That's an extremely simple way to put it but that's part of what I'm saying.

The amount of time it will take for it to be in an inflated state again, allows people who are newer to have better outlets of farming gold that TBC has to offer (dailies for example).

The economy issue in classic might not seem that bad to you right now, because the systems in how to obtain gold, and what you need to buy specifically, and how you gather materials is COMPLETELY different. Arguably tbc's greatest resource at the very start is primals. Primals aren't like arcane crystals, or herbs in classic where you can just go into an instance and farm them by yourself 24/7. You have to go out in the world to farm these limited supply items. If they are limited the prices are going to be high. This has happened too many times on other servers. When the prices get too high, then raw gold farming becomes irrelevant which basically makes dailies worthless which is a major hit to new players. The only way to make gold at this point is to make it from other players (boosts/mats/AH/etc). And if you walk into tbc with no flying and you are trying to compete with them, your life is going to be a living hell.

Relying on other people to make your gold for you, especially as a new player, is not a valid argument in my eyes.

But unless you can talk about concrete numbers, this hypothesis of "any gold less is good" does not hold any water. Maybe they gate off 10 million gold, but in the first month players generate 1000 million.

And if new players rely on dailies for their economic growth, they are not relevant for the actual discussion. You don't get filthy rich with dailies.

[Synical123]

But unless you can talk about concrete numbers, this hypothesis of "any gold less is good" does not hold any water. Maybe they gate off 10 million gold, but in the first month players generate 1000 million.

And if new players rely on dailies for their economic growth, they are not relevant for the actual discussion. You don't get filthy rich with dailies.

I'm not speaking about getting filthy rich, I'm talking about being able to afford literally anything in order to craft or buy gems or buy basically anything off the AH.

And idk how many tbc servers you have played, but what I'm saying comes from experience not just a made up hypothesis. I obviously can't give you concrete numbers because I can't tell the future of classic but can only provide you information of what has happened in the past to other servers.

Once there is enough inflation built into the economy in a tbc server, it becomes insanely unbearable to farm gold if you weren't there at the very start for the reasons I have provided above. But every server that has started out fresh, starts off being extremely friendly to players who just want to play tbc. Every tbc server I have played on at the very start with a wipe, it's easy as hell to farm up enough gold to purchase things you need off the AH. Because the prices of goods are matched to the amount of gold people have, raw gold farming through dailies is really lucrative for quite a long time before the inflation hits. This gives every single person a cushioning window to get items like motes/primals, enchanting mats, gems, whatever you need. But if you come into these servers late, and you don't have epic flying or anything to back you up, then it is basically an endless fight to get to a point where you can get these things (basically until you have epic flyer).

Also this

but in the first month players generate 1000 million.

Even though I know this is just a made up number, this has never happened in any form of a tbc server or really any fresh server that I have ever seen. Don't get me wrong, the inflation is going to hit. It always does. But it's over the course of months and months and months and even years. It's not like in a fresh environment it becomes inflated within a month or two. This just isn't how it happens. The first couple months alone people will be working toward their epic flyer, people will be dropping money on rep rewards, professions, etc. Inflation doesn't hit until they have nothing else to sink their gold into but keep accumulating it. And this doesn't happen on a mass scale until well into the expansion.

I mean look at classic for example. People weren't just dropping 30k gold in GDKPs runs on the norm. Sure, there might have been a crazy fuck or two that did acheive that amount of gold. But the issue isn't the individual, it's how much gold the server has combined, or in mass.

[erifwodahs]

But unless you can talk about concrete numbers, this hypothesis of "any gold less is good" does not hold any water. Maybe they gate off 10 million gold, but in the first month players generate 1000 million.

And if new players rely on dailies for their economic growth, they are not relevant for the actual discussion. You don't get filthy rich with dailies.

Can I ask what would be the problem with fresh tbc servers with transfer restriction? All new realms have disabled transfers on retail. I don't ask for classic players sacrifice anything. I don't want to have anything to do with classic, I just want nice and fresh rose tinted glasses tbc start for players like me who did not want to play classic?

[ymirsson]

Can I ask what would be the problem with fresh tbc servers with transfer restriction? All new realms have disabled transfers on retail. I don't ask for classic players sacrifice anything. I don't want to have anything to do with classic, I just want nice and fresh rose tinted glasses tbc start for players like me who did not want to play classic?

People like me, and for once i count myself to the majority, would be majorly miffed if all their classic progress was wiped for a nonsensical reason. And the reasons why i think gold restrictions are not meaningful can be read above.

I don't claim absolute authority how the transfer to TBC should actually be conducted but i, and most people in my guild are on the same page, there is no reason to restrict anything going forward to TBC, it would even make many players reluctant to continue playing Classic/TBC. That it might be more interesting to players not wanting to play classic, only TBC and onward is self evident, but not convincing to me.

Open to discussion of course.