Why is N'Zoth even a boss if melee exist in the game?

[erifwodahs]

I cant think of many such boss mechanics, other than maybe in dungeons perhaps but not in raids.

BoD
First boss was just a nukefest
Monkey: Fires while melee could just stand in melee clumped up
Monk+Mage: Bombs with lazers out of it where you had to run around small radius while dpsing it.
Opulence: Whole damn fight? First phase was all movement and second was take out gold far out of the casting range.
Dinosaur bosses: Whole fight again? Running from mobs, running to circles, dodging frog. Melee just does full rotation to the boss while ranged has to get to the spot. Not even talking about mages and mooninkins being decursers on that fight.
Rastakan was not too bad I guess.
Mecha was movement hell, but melee with the bombs had downtime too so yeah.
Ships: Ship phase - all movement, second phase was damn cancer for ranged stacking or cc group regardless while melee just facemelted boss in melee
Jaina - moooovement! Everywhere, beams, bombs, point a,b,c

I am not saying it was a bad raid, it was nice raid and it's what we as ranged dps do - just get on with it and plan our CDs for a time where we don't have to move with boss or around something while planning around soaking/drop off mechanics too while melee only need to plan for just those out of range mechanics and all running around does not affect them at all.
Also casters take way more of a hit when boss switch happens or dps rotation is interrupted or boss becomes unattackable. There are some melee mechanics which do suck too - Syndragosa for frost DK or bleeds for ferals (lul) which has massive impact on their downtime too but let's say a rogue or a DH does not give a shit. 3 seconds after smacking the boss they will be back in full power while ranged classes mostly have a rampup window from anything like 10 seconds to 30seconds.

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Of course not. I just want ranged to not dominate raiding like they have through the last decade. Blizzard should make more mechanics that are punishing to ranged:

- Smoke clouds so you cannot attack the target unless you are in melee range.

- Dodge mechanics that gets wider the further you are from the target.

- Mechanics that make the players move for extended periods.

- Mechanics that only target ranged players so it is really punishing if you have 10+ ranged players in a group.

- Adds that focus ranged players and needs to be killed by melee to save the ranged players.

There are many options to make melee more viable in raiding. Blizzard just need to be creative and think outside their traditional raid design.

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There is some truth to what he is saying:

- currently there is no performance related reason to play melee in raiding. You will always be at a disadvantage compared to ranged classes. So in practice melees are just annoying. It’s the sad truth.

- melees will on average have much less uptime than ranged. So either Blizzard should reduce the uptime of ranged classes with mechanics or they should make melee do more damage per uptime second than ranged.

Literally all your mechanics are in the game so nothing you said has not been done by blizzard and balance is good as it is. Some fights have their issues but balance is there in general.
I have been benched because of fights only needing X amount of ranged and the rest is melee, we have benched good melee players for subpar ranged on Fetid devourer too. It's a nature of the game. You don't see raids with 18 ranged players because it is not viable and will never be, hopefully.

[hulkgor]

Okay so Nighthold is one example, do you have any more?

Topic is about a single boss, i respond with an entire tier where most bosses were melee-friendly. Not a good enough answer?

[Baneto]

Topic is about a single boss, i respond with an entire tier where most bosses were melee-friendly. Not a good enough answer?

No your answer was fine, BMhunters are still laughing at those mechanics though.

[ymirsson]

Topic is about a single boss, i respond with an entire tier where most bosses were melee-friendly. Not a good enough answer?

What about the other 21+ tiers?

[hulkgor]

What about the other 21+ tiers?

You'd have to go boss by boss, and i'm pretty sure it's not that uneven as you guys seem to claim it. I only skipped Antorus and Nyalotha in the entirety of wow and apart of some outliers, it's really not that 'unfair' toward melees. But hey, keep fighting the good fight!

[ymirsson]

You'd have to go boss by boss, and i'm pretty sure it's not that uneven as you guys seem to claim it. I only skipped Antorus and Nyalotha in the entirety of wow and apart of some outliers, it's really not that 'unfair' toward melees. But hey, keep fighting the good fight!

I'm not even fighting, but saying "i showed you a whole tier" when there are more then 20 is not entirely convincing.

[hulkgor]

I'm not even fighting, but saying "i showed you a whole tier" when there are more then 20 is not entirely convincing.

You're also being a bit silly stating there are 20 tiers more, since you could easily eliminate half the tiers (initial ones) as there were barely any mechanic on fights, yet alone melee-specific punishing ones.

[Gestopft]

Not if the mechanics for example involve heavy movement. That will punish caster classes heavily (BM hunter can of course handle everything).

My point is that there are very few mechanics that require melee players to do, when ranged are generally capable of standing in melee and handling the mechanic. Ranged can stack together to split damage, etc. You don't generally NEED melee DPS to actually complete the mechanics because ranged can generally do anything melee can except for, as noted, heavy movement. And even then, it's only specific types of heavy movement that inherently favor melee, because many types of heavy movement can have major negative effects on uptime. I mean, other than "boss rotates in a circle while channeling a frontal beam" or "boss does quick succession of cone attacks in different directions," most mechanics with heavy movement also involve a loss of uptime for melee DPS.

And that’s my point: Blizzard can easily make mechanics which are hard to deal with by casters. But for some reason they don’t do that very often.

I mean, other than the ones I named above, name some that are hard for casters to deal with. Go ahead, be a dev. Edit: I saw one of your posts above- see my other post below.

Also, keep in mind that mechanics that punish casters are also generally punishing towards healers.

[Argorwal]

People keep spewing this gibberish, but the fact is that a lot of times, it's the exact opposite and it's ranged dps getting shafted.

I'll give a recent example of Nighthold in Mythic.

Almost every fight was punishing for ranged classes that dealt with the fights mechanics, whereas melees simply stayed at boss dishing damage, with no specific mechanic to deal with, and no negative aspect for it.

It even got to the point of stacking melee for 'easy mode' on fights like Mythic Gul'dan (the end boss, y'a know?). You needed to take 4 ranged dps (so boss abilities wouldn't target melees), they'd dance around left and right throughout the fight dealing with mechanics, and you had anywhere from 10-12 melees doing the dummy thing.

So yea, boohoo if a raid or encounter, once in a while, is the opposite.

Nighthold is basically the only melee friendly raid in the last 8 years.

Almost every raid is the anti-Nighthold where you only want 4-6 melee and stack ranged for the rest.

It’s not “once in a while.”

[Relapses]

Fun is subjective why are you trying to argue this. Fun to one person could be seeing big crits fly across the screen while fun to another could be a certain sequence of actions (i.e. rotation)and fun to the next person could be just simply doing the most DPS. Hard concept to grasp for some I suppose, so you're free to believe what you will as well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No shit, Sherlock. That's exactly what I was saying? The dude I replied to made an absurd claim that spec popularity was somehow reciprocal to its "fun."

[Asrialol]

Check out the newest SL(pre-patch) sims: melee DPS don't even exist at the TOP.

I know that's just pre-patch, but the differenced are really high. ...

Mandatory *laugh* at people referencing SL sims.

[Gestopft]

1) Smoke clouds so you cannot attack the target unless you are in melee range.

2) Dodge mechanics that gets wider the further you are from the target.

3) Mechanics that make the players move for extended periods.

4) Mechanics that only target ranged players so it is really punishing if you have 10+ ranged players in a group.

5) Adds that focus ranged players and needs to be killed by melee to save the ranged players.

1) Is there something happening to prevent casters from stacking in melee to begin with? If casters can plan to be in melee range when the smoke cloud comes, they don't lose anything. If it happens quickly, guess what? Wild Charge/Blink/Gateway/etc.

2) These have happened many times. Usually ranged players can...wait for it...plan to be in melee range when the mechanic starts. Generally, as I noted above, this does genuinely favor melee since they can maintain uptime.

3) While this is clearly punishing to casters, it's only a benefit for melee if they don't suffer from downtime as well. Many types of heavy movement also involve melee losing time on target.

4) Do you mean (a) mechanics that target EVERY ranged player? Or (b) just mechanics that don't target melee players? If (a), that's pretty ham-handed, and I don't think "bring melee not because they are valuable but because mechanics are forcing us to not bring any more ranged" feels good. It hasn't felt good for melee players to be the "there's too much of you" group; I don't think brute forcing a reversal of that is a good idea. If (b), then...welcome to raids since...Cata? or Maybe MoP. Because I'm pretty sure it was in one of those expansions that it became fairly normal for certain mechanics to only target ranged players, as I said in my first post, because those mechanics were heavily punishing to the melee group.

5) Fixate adds are relatively common...how do you have something that can "only be killed by melee players?" Is every ranged player getting fixated at the same time? Are ranged players somehow not able to kill adds fixated on other players? Won't melee lose significant uptime chasing adds all over the place?

[Baneto]

No shit, Sherlock. That's exactly what I was saying? The dude I replied to made an absurd claim that spec popularity was somehow reciprocal to its "fun."

I wouldnt call it absurd to assume if thousands of people play a class, it may also be because they like it.

[Eazy]

Mandatory *laugh* at people referencing SL sims.

Mandatory *laugh* at people not reading second part of the posts, lmao

[Relapses]

I wouldnt call it absurd to assume if thousands of people play a class, it may also be because they like it.

And it also isn't absurd to assume thousands of players play a spec because they want to do 1337 damage and the "fun" is second chair to the experience. (See: Most Mages in 8.3 played Fire but they're almost all playing Frost in the prepatch despite Fire changing very little and everybody is still using the same gear.) Since it's impossible to equivocate the thoughts and feelings of every single player it's a ridiculous notion to point at a popular spec and say "well its popularity must be because it's fun!" This is what you implied in your first reply to me and it's just as wrong then as it is now.

[Baneto]

And it also isn't absurd to assume thousands of players play a spec because they want to do 1337 damage and the "fun" is second chair to the experience. (See: Most Mages in 8.3 played Fire but they're almost all playing Frost in the prepatch despite Fire changing very little and everybody is still using the same gear.) Since it's impossible to equivocate the thoughts and feelings of every single player it's a ridiculous notion to point at a popular spec and say "well its popularity must be because it's fun!" This is what you implied in your first reply to me and it's just as wrong then as it is now.

Yeah I would assume its more absurd to assume the majority plays one spec only because its OP while at the same time hating it.

They might very well like it because its both fun and OP, same could be said for frost as well.
I dont think its one or the other, in this case. There are more colors to the spectrum.

[Relapses]

Yeah I would assume its more absurd to assume the majority plays one spec only because its OP while at the same time hating it.

They might very well like it because its both fun and OP, same could be said for frost as well.
I dont think its one or the other, in this case. There are more colors to the spectrum.

Hey thanks for defeating your own argument lol

[Baneto]

Hey thanks for defeating your own argument lol

I didnt, I simply expressed there is nuance in contrary to what you posted.

As opposed to you Im not on the forums to fight about who'se opinion is right.

[Relapses]

I didnt, I simply expressed there is nuance in contrary to what you posted.

As opposed to you Im not on the forums to fight about who'se opinion is right.

My guy. This was your first reply to me:

You can actually look at statistics on what classes are the most played to deduce what players find the most fun.

To which I replied that your logic sucks and there's more at play than just what players find fun. For you to then reply:

They might very well like it because its both fun and OP, same could be said for frost as well.
I dont think its one or the other, in this case. There are more colors to the spectrum.

...is essentially defeating your original argument by agreeing with me. So yeah, guess that means my opinion is right, eh?

[Radaney]

Check out the newest SL(pre-patch) sims: melee DPS don't even exist at the TOP.

I know that's just pre-patch, but the differenced are really high. ...

Where do you actually find these sims.