I don't get something about m+15 dropping lower gear than heroic raiding

[Drusin]

If one is lower than the other you would just use the other to out-gear the other.

People who prefer M+ would feel forced to raid to out-gear M+.
People who prefer raiding would feel forced to M+ to out-gear raids.

If they provide the same gear they can focus on their own activity. It would probably be better if the gear were comparable.

Make all the gear the same that's on the same "tier" of difficulty, then make the gear stronger when it is being used in its activity.

So you get a chest from a normal raid that is 100 ilvl and you get a chest from M+ (i'm not guessing a number :P ) that's 100 ilvl. Out in the world the two are equal if the M+ player goes into M+ his gear is 110 if the raider goes in M+ his gear is 100 still, same story for raids when flipped.

Now neither person is weaker in their content nor do they have any inclination to do content outside their interest although if they do their gear isn't useless it's just not as good as someone who always does that content. They can still overpower the other content by doing higher difficulty tiers, a heroic raider will have better base gear than a normal raider (like now) so they'll still do better than them AND better than someone who only did a M+2 but not better than someone who did a M+(not falling into the trap :P ) which is on the same "tier" as heroic raiding.

[Baneto]

Im of the opinion that organized raiding with lockouts should always provide higher rewards than repeatable 5-man content.

You still get a mythic level lootpiece every week if you just do your +15s.

M+15 end of dungeon loot = 210 ilvl
Heroic raidboss loot = 213 ilvl
Weekly cache from doing +15 = 226 ilvl

I dont see the issue here, the difference is abysmal if anything + the benefit of a 226 ilvl piece every week without raiding more than makes up for it.

[Didly]

No idea why you can't just choose what activity you participate in and get comparable gear. Be it PVP, M+, Raids, give everyone the same gear from doing any of one of those activities. Within each there is a few tiers of gear based on how far you progress.

It's so simple. Glad PVP gear should be equivalent to very high keys should be equivalent to mythic raiding gear, with lesser tiers of gear below.

A very small percentage of the playerbase has a hang up about feeling like people didn't "earn" the gear they did because they did it different. Who cares? Just ignore them, let them be upset, and the VAST MAJORITY of players will be happy.

[h4rr0d]

That's fine. Raiding leaderboards are more important to the community than M+ leaderboards.

that is a pretty bold statement. Do you have any evidence to support your claim? I'm a mythic raider, and once the wf race is done, it's done and I don't follow the raiding leaderboards at all, and even before that I don't really follow it much, but I will regularly check m+ leaderboards to see what the best are doing.

[Jitunu]

The highest content the vast majority of you posting will ever do is posting on mmo-champion. The 5 minute youtube videos you drawl over are what clears your content, not 5-10 ilvls of gear. Clearing mythic raids 6 months late doesn't magically give you an opinion worth reading.

[Nite92]

But Mythic plus scales indefinitely Raiding dose not.

Yes, but mythic+ rewards do not scale indefinitely. So what exactly is your point, besides making a sassy comment?

- - - Updated - - -

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

No, the thing that requires the most effort should reward the best gear. Wow has raiding as its core endgame, since 16 years now. So it is reasonable to put the best gear into raiding.

[schwarzkopf]

You just talking about the cache? .

Of course, the loot from runs has always, and will remain lower than the cache rewards.

Anyway - for me raiding and M+ are a rare luxury, more so in Shadowlands - so it isn't going to make much difference to me anyway. I'll be depending on what I can get solo as always.

[ONCHEhap]

Raiding should be the highest gear possible - by a large amount. M+ doesn't have lockouts, so you can get a full set of the best gear day 1. It should be worse.

exactly,m+ gives more gear per capita,has no lockouts,and has a much larger loot pool (so virtually every stat combination is available in m+,making for "better" loot overall.
Even being on par with raid gear will make it too good. BfA was a good example especially with titanforging,where m+ was just unarguably the best gearing method by far

[Dracullus]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

They cut gear for spaming M+, if I remember correctly gear from weekly cache will be almost Mythic raid quality for far easier content. So for people playing up to heroic level M+ will ALWAYS be relevant. And not just once a week, since doing more give you more options.

[Razion]

Make all the gear the same that's on the same "tier" of difficulty, then make the gear stronger when it is being used in its activity.

So you get a chest from a normal raid that is 100 ilvl and you get a chest from M+ (i'm not guessing a number :P ) that's 100 ilvl. Out in the world the two are equal if the M+ player goes into M+ his gear is 110 if the raider goes in M+ his gear is 100 still, same story for raids when flipped.

Now neither person is weaker in their content nor do they have any inclination to do content outside their interest although if they do their gear isn't useless it's just not as good as someone who always does that content. They can still overpower the other content by doing higher difficulty tiers, a heroic raider will have better base gear than a normal raider (like now) so they'll still do better than them AND better than someone who only did a M+2 but not better than someone who did a M+(not falling into the trap :P ) which is on the same "tier" as heroic raiding.

It does feel mean just to nerf players for wanting to do other content. The feeling of just wanting to play with friends but you can't because your gear is arbitrarily weaker in one place than another is probably a barrier to fun in that way. It's probably also better gear be more universally useful everywhere so you can have fair expectations about how strong you are and what you're capable of. Players can also feel stiffed like they have to gear up just to get to where they were at before.

Part of the argument may be that players then get to grind other gear in the other content - and while that's probably tempting for a developer, I don't think players want to farm multiple sets of gear. That seems like a large hassle. People already have to farm multiple spec sets, and that could quickly get out of hand for classes like Druids where you would have to have two sets for every spec. Eight gear sets? What a nightmare to have in your bags, that'd be horrible. Then meanwhile classes with less specs like Demon Hunters sitting around with just four gear sets... by comparison, you can see how maybe that seems a little unfair between classes.

There is kind of a way to do this on a smaller and less impactful way. Like, if tertiaries were really unimpactful and those were only impactful to that content, that would be one way to make that kind of thing not as impactful but still maybe something people may feel like they could still gear up for if tertiaries were more plentiful (but again, weak).

[froschhure]

Since you need to play 3 prior versions until you get to the real raid (mythic version) raiding is obsolete and is going to die. They need to get back to normal hc and that’s it. Mythic raiding only exists for wow costumer butchery through selling boosts. So ofc lizzsrd has to make sure that you never get to the point of a mythic raider through m+ . We were able to do so in legion and bfa and since all this boosted raider cakes whine over 4 years, they changed it back

[AlmightyGerkin]

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

This is a terrible idea. You get the best gear by the time and effort you put into it. Been this way since vanilla. Get the same item level from a world quest than the incentive to do the other content becomes pointless.

[NecroVane]

Ah yes, here we are 2 expansions in, and the m+ crowd still thinks that pushing arbitrarily high keys is a form of "progression" and not just personal goal chasing.

You can make mythic raiding way more difficult by doing it with 15 people, that doesn't mean its designed for it, nor is m+ designed to really be done past 10-15. You CAN go further if you want, but the reward structure of m+ shouldn't be disproportionately high just because you want to push into arbitrary difficulty scaling.

The fact is m+ is only about as difficult, if not less so, than heroic raiding. Going in week 1, in blues and greens, heroic raiding is not trivial most of the time. Generally you'd be farming m0s, m+ and heroic dungeons before going into heroic the week it opens, but then that gear would also be making m+10-15 easier. And for the people who do squash it day 1, those same people would also be squashing m+15s(or m+10 if thats the highest the gear scales that season).

M+ is easily puggable, is infinitely farmable, and requires basically no organization or practice; you are, after all, just doing a 5 man with the numbers cranked up. A boss with 1 mechanic is still just a boss with 1 mechanic, even if he has 1500% more health. Thus, it really needs to have its rewards tuned accordingly, but with titanforging and dropping a hilariously high number of items, m+ has been far, far too rewarding for far too long. The only reason the rewards feel super bad now, is essentially because m+ has been spoiling people for 4 years. Completing a 15 in time, and getting 3 items, is the equivalent of a heroic raid boss dropping 18 items in a 30 man raid, and unlike that heroic raid boss, is endlessly repeatable. That is far, far too much loot for something that can be done endlessly.

I think m+ dropping heroic ilvl loot at m+15 is fine, but blizzard obviously saw problems with heroic and mythic raiders essentially being forced to farm m+15 the first week to get heroic ilvl gear, so they could trade all the gear from the raids and super optimize it, so they made the m+15 gear SLIGHTLY worse to prevent this. Of course, this would also not be an issue at all if they didnt make the assinine decision to axe master looter from organized raiding because of the nonexistent problem of pugs getting ninja looted, but this is the world we live in now. Also, raiders have literally been forced to do m+ for the last 4 years to get gear and artifact power(mostly in legion), so i dont think m+ers being asked to pug some heroic bosses to round out their set is at all unreasonable. If you can get heroic raiding quality gear in a puggable 5 man dungeon, it also disincentivizes people from getting into raiding in general, which is not what you want for your end game content. I wouldn't be surprised if blizzard raised the m+15 ilvl after the first season, or after the first few weeks of the raids being out, but if you really hate it so much blame the master looter removal.

Either way, m+ goons really need to stop pretending that just because their content can scale endlessly and has random affixes that often overlap in unintended and obviously untested ways with trash or boss mechanics, that makes it "harder" or "just as hard" as raiding. If anything, that just means the design behind its difficulty is inherently flawed. Being able to clear a m25 is no different than being able to kill mythic n'zoth with 15 people, both are making things artificially more difficult just for the sake of saying you did it. Anything beyond 15 is just for the bragging rights, its not "progression" and shouldn't be designed around.

[Echo of Soul]

You have to take into consideration that there is no lockout for m+. Even if you full clear heroic, how many items do you expect to get? 3? While even with lower ilv m+ is a guarantee full set the moment they are out.

This is definitely the only consideration they need to make when designing the reward structure for m+. I have no issue with high m+ keys dropping the same quality gear as you get from raiding but the amount needs to be the same.

It'll be very rare to get even a single upgrade in one reset from raiding in shadowlands since they're reducing the amount of loot we get by a lot. That's why the weekly m+ chest exists, so you don't pimp out your character in a afternoon.

[Baneto]

Since you need to play 3 prior versions until you get to the real raid (mythic version) raiding is obsolete and is going to die. They need to get back to normal hc and that’s it. Mythic raiding only exists for wow costumer butchery through selling boosts. So ofc lizzsrd has to make sure that you never get to the point of a mythic raider through m+ . We were able to do so in legion and bfa and since all this boosted raider cakes whine over 4 years, they changed it back

So hardcore raiding needs to die because some people buy boosts? Why is that?

[Blackmist]

Each content type should have had a set bonus to help with that.

M+ gives something that helps in dungeons, Raid tiers something that helps in raids, PvP gives things that help in PvP.

[exochaft]

Guaranteed eventually. Nobody I’ve ever known has gotten fully geared in a day from M+. Rng plays a big part in how fast you gear. Dungeons take time, and if you get unlucky... you know the rest

In my guild, most of us had full max end-of-run-loot ilvl (excluding WF/TF for those patches) by the end of the first week of mythic raiding for each tier exactly because M+ is so easily farmed. Didn't do any strict armor stacking (except for shields occasionally) or anything fancy, just ran guild M+ groups for the max end-of-run rewards. Could it all have been done in a day? Probably for some people, but we aren't hardcore, but even at a casual pace it's was possible in BfA. Even with some of my friends, farming gear on alts via M+ end-of-chest loot is so insanely efficient that we didn't even bother trying to do heroic Ny'alotha in this pre-patch window... because the ilvl of loot is inferior in heroic raids.

On the opposite end of things, gearing from raids can be very inefficient on an individual level compared to M+ because of the weekly lockouts and no guarantee of loot. While M+ doesn't guarantee end-of-run loot, you can run it as often as you like until you get loot, unlike raids. You might get lucky from raids, or you can be like me and go a week or two w/o seeing loot. The offset for such an inefficient loot system (combined with the time/effort/coordination efforts) is that the gear is much better when you actually do get something. If you could run raids non-stop like M+ and get loot off bosses w/o lockouts, then I'd be way more inclined to have the rewards be similar to M+, but you still run into the time/effort/coordination issues that still dwarf those required for max ilvl from M+.

Shadowlands will slow down that M+ loot process a bit, because currently in BfA M+ you can get full 120 loot (minus Azerite pieces) in less than a week due to the M+ reward structure. That's just way too fast compared to any other power progression path, and it's not even close. This is why having an endless loot system that yields powerful gear (compared to all other content) can cause issues, especially when the ease of organizing and clearing said content is not that great compared to the competing sources of loot. People should keep in mind that WoW is an MMO, and the reward structures for MMO's typically have the content requiring more people, more effort, and more coordination will yield the best loot. The fact that M+ will still even reward mythic raid level loot is still outside of norm of the aforementioned paradigm. I guarantee the slightly higher ilvl from the last two bosses in Castle Nathria are meant as an incentive for people who primarily raid, not as a diss towards M+, exactly because of how generous loot from M+ as a whole really is even in Shadowlands.

The reality of what will happen with M+ is that gearing will be slower at the start, but getting a full set of mythic raid level gear via M+ will actually be faster than BfA due to getting more options from the weekly Vault if M+ if your thing. The structure will still have an abundance of keys because of the Vault, as people will be wanting to get in more than a one-and-done key for more loot options, and those that want to push their r.io scores will still run keys as they always have. You can still do a one-and-done key, and you'll just be at BfA gearing speeds from M+ at a minimum. The other thing to keep in mind is that the M+ keys are being balanced around the ilvl rewards you get from them, so the difficulty curve will likely be much lower to obtain max ilvl from M+ compared to BfA since the rewards (outside of the weekly Vault) are going to lower than BfA. All in all, as I started off saying, gearing via M+ will be slower at the start, but getting to mythic raid ilvl via M+ will be faster and easier Shadowlands.

[LordTakeo]

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

I mean, M+ DOES reward same ilvl gear. At the same pace as it did in BFA and Legion.
At the end of the week, in a chest. Cause after the first month, all M+ end dungeon gear was irrelevant once Titanforging was gone, and you just farmed mythic raids or the weekly chest or PvP to gear up.

All that changed, is that the "start" gear is slightly worse, to prevent making hc raids too easy/undesired too quickly, and that you can now -choose- your weekly upgrades, instead of getting belts 3x in a row.

All in all, an improvement.

[enderzone]

This is definitely the only consideration they need to make when designing the reward structure for m+. I have no issue with high m+ keys dropping the same quality gear as you get from raiding but the amount needs to be the same.

It'll be very rare to get even a single upgrade in one reset from raiding in shadowlands since they're reducing the amount of loot we get by a lot. That's why the weekly m+ chest exists, so you don't pimp out your character in a afternoon.

I don't mind the amount of gear but the difficulty needs to match up. Mythic 15 is just to easy of a bar to each for a mythic item and I would argue even heroic gear. I would of liked seeing the weekly chest removed as I find weekly rewards degenerate gameplay designed to draw out content longer then it naturally would be and would move current 15 rewards up to a level 20 and mythic rewards to a level 25.

[Tyris Flare]

The fact is m+ is only about as difficult, if not less so, than heroic raiding.

Link your 6k+ io profile?