Turkey threatens legal, diplomatic action over Charlie Hebdo’s caricature of Erdogan

[Theodarzna]

because its not coming from a space of superiority, its coming from a place of respect for the person you are trying to convince of a different avenue of thought.

You can sit here are and argue the pedancies of the method as much as you want, but its not going to fix anything until work gets done to ease tensions first. Cause i can sure as fuck tell you whatever the west has been doing so far acting high and mighty isn't working.

How does one change their avenue of thought without by design asserting the supremacy of ones own avenue of thought? I mean if all avenues of thought are equal in this respect, there is no way to go after them nor impose this education regime in a neutral way.

And how is this any more than just indoctrination but for a different ideological program?

[Bodonius]

And those idiots are extremists, I'm not talking about ISIS members being educated here, those folks are generally not going to be changed most of the time. But outright showing hostility to the rest when they havent done anything to warrant it is not going to fix the issue.

- - - Updated - - -



and sitting in an echo chamber claiming superiority won't work either.

Many muslims a great people, apart from its still common that they are like 30+ years behind when it comes to gay rights. Most even moderate muslims thinks homosexually should be a crime. But they will change their mind

[Lothaeryn]

How does one change their avenue of thought without by design asserting the supremacy of ones own avenue of thought? I mean if all avenues of thought are equal in this respect, there is no way to go after them nor impose this education regime in a neutral way.

And how is this any more than just indoctrination but for a different ideological program?

With that logic, all education is indoctrination. Are you sure you want to go that route discussing this?

[Bodonius]

The bible says the same

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

Well the differance is that few christians if any take that part to heart.

While erdoran say what moderate islam, islam is islam

[Theodarzna]

With that logic, all education is indoctrination. Are you sure you want to go that route discussing this?

Yes. There really isn't an objectively correct or ideologically neutral education. You are also very literally suggesting somehow imposing? requiring? whatever program that I guess will change their belief system. For this "We need to be respectful of Islam" your actual program is essentially "Lets us, as outsiders, find someway to 'educate'/'indoctrinate' them to have different beliefs". I mean you might say you aren't trying to eradicate Islam, just change it, but there is no non-coercive way to do that and double plus when its being done and enacted by Non-Muslims on Muslims.

[Lothaeryn]

Yes. There really isn't an objectively correct or ideologically neutral education. You are also very literally suggesting somehow imposing? requiring? whatever program that I guess will change their belief system. For this "We need to be respectful of Islam" your actual program is essentially "Lets us, as outsiders, find someway to 'educate'/'indoctrinate' them to have different beliefs". I mean you might say you aren't trying to eradicate Islam, just change it, but there is no non-coercive way to do that and double plus when its being done and enacted by Non-Muslims on Muslims.

Whoever said it was being done by non Muslims? There are more than enough Secular groups who could do this with some government funding. the main issue here is acting on the resources available to help those groups get established for that goal. Most western governments can easily do that.

And in some regards, we are indoctrinating, but the alternative is what we have already, and can you by any means argue the current course of the discussion is better with wahabbism obstructing the topic of religion?

[Zaktar]

And those idiots are extremists, I'm not talking about ISIS members being educated here, those folks are generally not going to be changed most of the time. But outright showing hostility to the rest when they havent done anything to warrant it is not going to fix the issue.

- - - Updated - - -



and sitting in an echo chamber claiming superiority won't work either.

Not seeing anyone arguing that we should sit in an echo chamber and claim superiority. More so that we should not buckle to these kinds of pressures. If anything, I'd argue that the most viable strategy we have is doubling down on disrespect of Islamic religious figures as a means of normalizing it, in the way that mocking every other widespread religion is normalized. The more unusual it is to mock these figures, the more shocking it is when it happens, the stronger a reaction it engenders. Same goes for "strong men" dictators.

[Lothaeryn]

Not seeing anyone arguing that we should sit in an echo chamber and claim superiority. More so that we should not buckle to these kinds of pressures. If anything, I'd argue that the most viable strategy we have is doubling down on disrespect of Islamic religious figures as a means of normalizing it, in the way that mocking every other widespread religion is normalized. The more unusual it is to mock these figures, the more shocking it is when it happens, the stronger a reaction it engenders. Same goes for "strong men" dictators.

to be quite frank, most Muslims couldn't give a shit about jokes about islam, as long as they aren't mean spirited or directly intended to insult the faith my mocking Muhammed as a person. I certainly don't have an issue with it, but acting like I should be ok with people insulting my faith and not calling them an asshole is disingenuous at best.

The people who are incited to violence over it are generally extremists and have very little connection to their community or in some cases, reality. Isolated pockets of muslims are partly a result of non inclusiveness in their community, outreach is the first step to get them accustomed to secular ideas, and in some cases you will have idiots who refuse to integrate into their society; but we have those kinds of people who are native to those nations too, muslim's would not be an outlier in that regard.

The westboro Baptist church isn't considered a sane or respectable group of people for a reason, that doesn't mean all Christians are crazy zealots and deserve to be mocked like they were members of the WBC.

[Theodarzna]

Whoever said it was being done by non Muslims? There are more than enough Secular groups who could do this with some government funding. the main issue here is acting on the resources available to help those groups get established for that goal. Most western governments can easily do that.

And in some regards, we are indoctrinating, but the alternative is what we have already, and can you by any means argue the current course of the discussion is better with wahabbism obstructing the topic of religion?

A group essentially funded as a proxy for outside interests is the same thing as an outsider.

Second, functionally there isn't much distance between "Lets kill them all" versus "Lets use subterfuge and covert sneaky tactics to change them", either way the pretense of "Show some respect" if anything is more deplorable since you are merely doing it as an illusion and trick. If anything the people saying "Lets kill them all" have the decency to be honest about their intentions and opinion.

[Thrundi]

Only if you're dead set on being offended do you take it that way.

Funny you should say that.

As if someone could choose to see satire as satire, or be dead set on being offended and behead people ?

The teacher was teaching about freedom of speech and such. As part of it, considering the events that France saw the past years, of course Charlie Hebdo is a prime example.
He warned the class. He offered kids that may have been upset to leave the class rather than seeing the pictures. He showed several of Charlie Hebdo pieces, including "the one". Reminder for all of you : Charlie Hebdo draws about everything and anything. Not only islam.

A girl that wasn't present in that class heard of it, warned her father, who made a video on youtube. They made up a story about how she got detention or whatever because he was clearly an islamophobe.

Some loon who was not even in the school (>18yo) decided to behead the teacher because he heard of it.

How is that NOT choosing to be offended over something that doesn't affect you in any way ?

Oh, also, this comes AFTER Erdogan heavily implied, in public, that Macron needed mental checks. Like, how can one play the offense card after that ?
Macron is a cunt, but implying he's dumb, senile or mad is laughable.

[The Butt Witch]

Why can't turks just make a cartoon to ridicule Macron and publish it in all newspapers they can reach, show it on all TV stations, make it an official wallpaper in Turkish edition of Windows and so on? Easiest and most logical response.

Are there no talented artists in Turkey? I'm sure there are some.

I'm sure they do, but no one gives a shit. Macron, for all his many many flaws, is not an egomaniac with a tiny penis like Erdogan, so he doesn't care about such cartoons.

[Zaktar]

to be quite frank, most Muslims couldn't give a shit about jokes about islam, as long as they aren't mean spirited or directly intended to insult the faith my mocking Muhammed as a person. I certainly don't have an issue with it, but acting like I should be ok with people insulting my faith and not calling them an asshole is disingenuous at best.

The people who are incited to violence over it are generally extremists and have very little connection to their community or in some cases, reality. Isolated pockets of muslims are partly a result of non inclusiveness in their community, outreach is the first step to get them accustomed to secular ideas, and in some cases you will have idiots who refuse to integrate into their society; but we have those kinds of people who are native to those nations too, muslim's would not be an outlier in that regard.

The westboro Baptist church isn't considered a sane or respectable group of people for a reason, that doesn't mean all Christians are crazy zealots and deserve to be mocked like they were members of the WBC.

Completely with you on all of this. I have zero issues with people getting mad about religious disrespect, only have issues when that anger translates into illegal acts.

[Ripster42]

How is that NOT choosing to be offended over something that doesn't affect you in any way ?

The problem isn't being offended. You can be offended or not. The problem is killing someone because you're offended. Again, being provoked doesn't mean that there's automatically justification for your actions. Trying to deny that there was a provoking action taken occludes the corrective action that needs to be taken. In the case of the OP, dissociating taking offense from violence or retribution.

[Bodonius]

Anyone defending islamists killing people have small pepe, its a fact.

[Acidbaron]

As others have pointed out a large reason he remains popular is due to his projects in rural area's and from turks who live abroad.
A good solution to begin with in Europe is to remove their access to dual nationality right now a lot of people are Turk and Belgian for example.

Also don't say that every Turk is in support of him or his policies or even actions, to say that is to claim that every American is in support of Trump, their political landscape is just as divided as i noticed a few silly comments like "underdeveloped nation", what is just nonsense.

[Themius]

Dude it's themius. He could give movie bob a good run for shitty hot takes.

Says guy who often ends up in the same side as nazis

- - - Updated - - -

Well the differance is that few christians if any take that part to heart.

While erdoran say what moderate islam, islam is islam

Just because you’re ignorant of the events of mass killings of non Christians at the hands of Christians CURRENTLY going on doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen and people don’t take it seriously.

[Theodarzna]

Dude it's themius. He could give movie bob a good run for shitty hot takes.

What I love about Moviebob is he is he says what most on here actually think but in no uncertain terms, He says the quiet parts loud and really lets you see the raw malice where most try to hide it somewhat.

[Lothaeryn]

A group essentially funded as a proxy for outside interests is the same thing as an outsider.

Second, functionally there isn't much distance between "Lets kill them all" versus "Lets use subterfuge and covert sneaky tactics to change them", either way the pretense of "Show some respect" if anything is more deplorable since you are merely doing it as an illusion and trick. If anything the people saying "Lets kill them all" have the decency to be honest about their intentions and opinion.

"At least the nazi's were honest about what they wanted" isn't a very strong argument in your favor, and effectively justifies any hostility the west meets by refusing to come to the table at all. If the west wants peace, its going to need to help those in the community who want it. Not sit there with its hands crossed saying they can't be reasoned with and then calling for genocide the second its convenient.

The first step then is to do outreach, and find common ground. Which few if any countries do in europe. If you segregate your populations, you segregate them from the discussion table and create no progress. Black people in the US have had this issue for over 100 years and going since slavery was abolished. What you argue in favor of is no different then systemic discrimination because of religious differences.

"These Muslims are treated like lepers and put in socioeconomic slums with no social mobility and never talked to, why can't they be reasoned with?" and then people wonder why extremism keeps indoctrinating more youth.

[Easo]

I find it interesting that both our better known Turkish/Azeri posters are missing from this thread.
I find it even more interesting that the cartoon itself was not allowed to be posted by the mods and, frankly, thats quite sad.
As for the cartoon itself, as someone already mentioned - they seriously cannot draw something which does not look like total shit? It looks so bad and boomery it is missing the point they are trying to make. The previous one was also crappy. Hmm, maybe that decision is not that bad, if purely on the grounds that it is a travesty which makes eyes bleed.
P.S.
Ataturk keeps spinning faster and faster. We should be able to gather limitless energy soon.

[Mormolyce]

How do you know such subreddit even exists? Unless...

Maybe you shouldn't guess what a subreddit is based solely on its title lol. Go look.