I don't get something about m+15 dropping lower gear than heroic raiding

[Ange]

They can never go back to RAIDING as the main gearing path for the HEROIC / AVERAGE difficulty mode.

Mythic+ is much more enjoyable just because you can schedule it easier in your play time.

If you enjoy a raiding group/guild thats great.
If you enjoy gearing with PVE, mythic+ got some major advantages with its flexibility in scheduling.

What ever the game changed since WoD raiding participation went DOWN, if gearing gets alternative paths, the majority will go with the alternative path to raiding, that cant be questioned after so many years of data.

[valrchron]

Why are people so hung up on ilvls?

Have you seen the loot table from Castle Nathria?
There are usually only 2 items per slot dropping. Take leather legs for an example.
There is one pair of legs from Shriekwing, "Chiropteran Leggings" (crit/mastery) and one pair from Hungering Destroyer, "Volatile Shadestitch Legguards" (haste/mastery).
If mastery is shit for your class, your BiS piece is going to be from m+.

I'm playing a priest, and I haven't done any research on the stats prio in Shadowlands, but if it's still crit/haste, there are a whopping 3 pieces of cloth loot with those stats from Castle Nathria. Which means that the vast majority of my BiS pieces are going to be from m+.

3 ilvls worth of intellect is NOT going to be better than something like 60 haste.

People seem to be staring at the difference in ilvls and rioting, without looking at the actual stats on the items dropping there.

In all likelyhood, almost all your BiS gear will still be from m+, even being 3ilvls lower than HC raids.

[Mercarcher]

Why are people so hung up on ilvls?

Have you seen the loot table from Castle Nathria?
There are usually only 2 items per slot dropping. Take leather legs for an example.
There is one pair of legs from Shriekwing, "Chiropteran Leggings" (crit/mastery) and one pair from Hungering Destroyer, "Volatile Shadestitch Legguards" (haste/mastery).
If mastery is shit for your class, your BiS piece is going to be from m+.

I'm playing a priest, and I haven't done any research on the stats prio in Shadowlands, but if it's still crit/haste, there are a whopping 3 pieces of cloth loot with those stats from Castle Nathria. Which means that the vast majority of my BiS pieces are going to be from m+.

3 ilvls worth of intellect is NOT going to be better than something like 60 haste.

People seem to be staring at the difference in ilvls and rioting, without looking at the actual stats on the items dropping there.

In all likelyhood, almost all your BiS gear will still be from m+, even being 3ilvls lower than HC raids.

Good news for you.

Stat priority for Shadow is Int>Haste>=Mastery=Vers=Crit.

You want the highest ilvl possible, then don't get any stat over the soft-cap. Haste is slightly better than everything else, but crit, vers, and mastery are all virtually equal. So you don't even have to worry about making decisions, just wear the highest ilvl.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

Why are people so hung up on ilvls?

Have you seen the loot table from Castle Nathria?
There are usually only 2 items per slot dropping. Take leather legs for an example.
There is one pair of legs from Shriekwing, "Chiropteran Leggings" (crit/mastery) and one pair from Hungering Destroyer, "Volatile Shadestitch Legguards" (haste/mastery).
If mastery is shit for your class, your BiS piece is going to be from m+.

I'm playing a priest, and I haven't done any research on the stats prio in Shadowlands, but if it's still crit/haste, there are a whopping 3 pieces of cloth loot with those stats from Castle Nathria. Which means that the vast majority of my BiS pieces are going to be from m+.

3 ilvls worth of intellect is NOT going to be better than something like 60 haste.

People seem to be staring at the difference in ilvls and rioting, without looking at the actual stats on the items dropping there.

In all likelyhood, almost all your BiS gear will still be from m+, even being 3ilvls lower than HC raids.

Secondary stats will have diminishing returns in shadowlands. After 25% you will get penalty from 10 up to 40%. So main stat will have
even more value in shadowlands. Spriest stat prio seems to be like int - haste - mastery - crit - vers and haste/master/crit do not seem to be too far
apart. Most likely itemlvl will just be king most of the time...so idk if you will really prefer much pieces over higher itemlvl. That being said idk what the
outrage of some people in this thread is all about, if you do +15 you will get a 226 item from the chest which is nathria mythic itemlvl (last 2 bosses excluded)
which seems more than fair to me if you choose only to do m+. Killing the last bosses of a mythic raid is just way harder than any +15 key and the gear advantage really isn't that big.

[DazManianDevil]

I didn't read every post, but I distinctly recall the M+ loot cap being 3 ilvl below Heroic quality loot was to stop early M+ spam to allow for raid gear funneling before Mythic world first race.

If Blizz would give us Master loot back, a lot of this nonsense wouldn't even matter.

To answer an earlier point, I raid Mythic to A) achieve something harder than Heroic and B) get loot that's strong enough to bully kids in Random BGs to compensate for my lack of PvP skill. Is that too much to ask for?

I'm also in favor of removing Vers as a stat and bringing back a version of Resilience and or PvPower.
Heck, maybe introduce an M+ stat that increases movement speed, cooldown reduction or CC resistance? I dunno man, I just push buttons.

[Nevcairiel]

Frankly mythic raiding should just drop heroic level gear as well. What would you need more power for? Ypu already beat the best.

In a proper gearing concept, early bosses drop gear to help you fight the later bosses. Of course the last boss is then the odd-one out, but there is always a future raid as well.

In past expansions, it also worked like this, because gear was far more limited, no random uprolling, guilds had to in some cases farm gear from early mythic bosses to fight the later ones. But that had faded away between M+ and TF. But maybe it'll make a return now. Perhaps not for world first guilds, but those are a tiny minority anyway.

[Relapses]

Raiding should not reward the highest gear possible. Multiple sources should reward the same highest ilvl. Gear shouldn't be restricted to one part of the game.

This is just bad thinking overall and is unhealthy for the game in the end.

The devs don't think this way despite the dude you quoted thinking they do. You get Mythic raid quality gear from completing a +14 M+ in your weekly chest in SL, completing defeating the absolutely bullshit elitist "raiding is the only content that really matters" argument handily. You would think two expansions of M+ would warm people up to the idea that different people find different things fun in this game but I guess old habits die hard.

[Jonnusthegreat]

But it also means to compete in M+ you need to raid mythic, something very odd considering even a mythic + team usually wont have more then 5-6 people on standby, thus lacking a good 10 people to hit that 20 people mark. also unlike mythic + you NEED to have them on your realm group for the raids so you cant even try to find likeminded people in LFG which is per the usual for the M+ group.

Now I guess they can just incorporate a preset gear max to M+ so raiders don't get an advantage in this field, but lets remember how well that worked for PvP... everyone needs a carrot to chase. Another option is to just let gear continue to scale up past 15+ (to say +25 or something) So it's automatically harder then Mythic raiding to get equivalent gear, at which point who the hell cares what the Mythic raiders think if they cant beat the harder content to get at level gear they need to "Get good"

Correct. Instead of needing M+ to compete in raiding, now it's the reverse. That's what I said. Since raiding is more important, I would have to agree that this is a good change.

[enderzone]

The devs don't think this way despite the dude you quoted thinking they do. You get Mythic raid quality gear from completing a +14 M+ in your weekly chest in SL, completing defeating the absolutely bullshit elitist "raiding is the only content that really matters" argument handily. You would think two expansions of M+ would warm people up to the idea that different people find different things fun in this game but I guess old habits die hard.

I think it stems from the inherent feeling that the hardest content should reward the best items even if they have moved away from that almost completely. Even though they can get extremely powerful items fairly easily they know its so inherently wrong that their minds have a hard time grasping the fact that it is in actuality happening.

[Jonnusthegreat]

MYTHIC raiding should reward the highest gear possible.

M15+ and heroic are similar levels of effort and skill - so they should be on par.

I think the line was drawn where it was so that heroic raiding isn't irrelevant for mythic raiders.

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"more popular" by what metric?
unless you count LFR as raiding (which is ridiculous) then there is more people doing M+ than raiding...
so its not realy "more popular" its that YOU PERSONALY like it more

This has been discussed already. Please re-read.

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I have no evidence to back this up, but I think most people do Mythic+ as endgame content as opposed to raiding.

We were talking about leaderboards. People care more about high end raiding than high end M+.

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that is a pretty bold statement. Do you have any evidence to support your claim? I'm a mythic raider, and once the wf race is done, it's done and I don't follow the raiding leaderboards at all, and even before that I don't really follow it much, but I will regularly check m+ leaderboards to see what the best are doing.

Yes, I do, and I've posted it. Please re-read.

[Drusin]

It does feel mean just to nerf players for wanting to do other content. The feeling of just wanting to play with friends but you can't because your gear is arbitrarily weaker in one place than another is probably a barrier to fun in that way. It's probably also better gear be more universally useful everywhere so you can have fair expectations about how strong you are and what you're capable of. Players can also feel stiffed like they have to gear up just to get to where they were at before.

Part of the argument may be that players then get to grind other gear in the other content - and while that's probably tempting for a developer, I don't think players want to farm multiple sets of gear. That seems like a large hassle. People already have to farm multiple spec sets, and that could quickly get out of hand for classes like Druids where you would have to have two sets for every spec. Eight gear sets? What a nightmare to have in your bags, that'd be horrible. Then meanwhile classes with less specs like Demon Hunters sitting around with just four gear sets... by comparison, you can see how maybe that seems a little unfair between classes.

There is kind of a way to do this on a smaller and less impactful way. Like, if tertiaries were really unimpactful and those were only impactful to that content, that would be one way to make that kind of thing not as impactful but still maybe something people may feel like they could still gear up for if tertiaries were more plentiful (but again, weak).

Consequence of wanting to do multiple aspects of the game.

[Lolites]

This has been discussed already. Please re-read.

you mean "i have no argument so i rather refer you to whole thread so you look for it and i dont have to come up with something"
you just spewed some opinions why raids should be considered "better", absolutely nothing about why you think (incorrectly) they are more popular... without LFR absolute minority of people raided (and still do), and craploads of people do M+, just check logs and see...

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We were talking about leaderboards. People care more about high end raiding than high end M+.

based on what other than YOUR opinion?
most people dont care about leaderboards at all, so stop pulling this shit out of your ass, bcs clearly its YOU who care about raids more than M+, not "people"...

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I think the line was drawn where it was so that heroic raiding isn't irrelevant for mythic raiders.

great, so now M+ is irelevant for M+ players, as hc raid which is piss easy will still give them better gear...
great "fix" of something... set bonuses on gear working only in raid/m+ depending on origin of gear would help with "irrelevancy" of content, this will just kill part of it

[OFiveNine]

I wish I knew. Heroic raiding is easy as hell and it's literally just rebranded normal since they didn't like the name flex.

[DechCJC]

What's even better is having to get 2400+ arena rating for the same reward from the weekly chest. Lol.

[therealbowser]

The thing about Mythic + is that it doesn't have lockouts, and it only requires 5 players, making it in theory easy to get into.

So it being at a gear disadvantage over raiding does make sense.

[Accendor]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

The idea is basically that you do not have to play other content anymore once you set out for heroic raiding.
Your will have like 1 Torghast run per week and grind away in the maw for sockets, but besides that it's raid or die in SL

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The thing about Mythic + is that it doesn't have lockouts, and it only requires 5 players, making it in theory easy to get into.

So it being at a gear disadvantage over raiding does make sense.

The problem is, that this also means there is no reason to play it anymore now except for the challenge. This has not worked out in WoD and it will not work out now.

[Baneto]

snip

You critizize him for assuming things and not having an argument, and then you go and assume things yourself.

If you're gonna argue his points its best to show you're a hypocrite in your own.

[blankfaced]

The idea is basically that you do not have to play other content anymore once you set out for heroic raiding.
Your will have like 1 Torghast run per week and grind away in the maw for sockets, but besides that it's raid or die in SL

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The problem is, that this also means there is no reason to play it anymore now except for the challenge. This has not worked out in WoD and it will not work out now.

Random battlegrounds don't offer the best ilvl rewards, yet people still keep doing them. We have proof the sky won't fall. People will still use it to gear up because it's easier than the other ways. It just won't be THE way to gear up anymore.

[worgie]

for hunters right now, bis gear drops from dungeons and a few bits from the raid. once mythic raid opens up they will lose all their bis stats for vers mastery or some garbage because blizzard decided to make some item drops in the raid identical.. i mean 2 chest pieces with the same stats and 2 legs with the same stats. and those stats are neither good for BM or MM.

[Will]

No, they aren't making heroic raiding gear OP. They're making m+ gear weaker. It's a difference. M+ should feel similar if you're a raider but harder if you're not, under the new changes.