Maining a class, not a spec

[mauserr]

Remember those good old times when we were maining a class, not a spec? Those times where you weren't punished for changing a spec within the same class?

It doesn't look like it's changing anytime soon, at least in Shadowlands. We're once again being fucked with systems that punish us for playing a class instead of a spec, ie:

• different covenants being bis for specs within the same class depending on the main covenant ability
• then soulbinds/conduits (afaik) also punishing us for changing specs.
• legendaries also being spec specific
• + who knows what else blizzard will try to sneak in during the expansion like they did with essences or corruptions in BfA

What are your opinions of this? Do you actually like that?

EDIT; sorry, in my post I have only considered DPS classes only. Yes, you had to have two or three gearsets if you wanted to multi-role, but that's a different thing. Also, still a better solution that what we have right now.

[Erolian]

I don't like it. I play a mage and I don't have the option to change my role but I do have varying niches and ways to play a single role. This is really the core tradeoff for playing a pure dps class vs everything else. However I'm not really in a position to enjoy that aspect of my class at most relevant points in a patch because they heap loads of borrowed power systems on top of me so that I'm perpetually behind if I want to play more than one spec. Its just not enjoyable. The days of just needing to maybe swap some stats around or be slightly less effective due to not having the perfect gear were very much preferable to the months long grinds to maintain individual specs. The fact that my conduits don't change with my spec at a minimum is hilarious

[Majerin]

Considering the vastly different playstyle of specs within a given class, I would speculate there is more people that main a spec than a given class. I know I can personally attest to this: while I am quite enamored with the fast paced playstyle of fury and frost DK I find the downtime laden gameplay of arms and unholy to be quite degenerate. For quite some time the game has evolved to be more akin to mini-classes rather than the old specialization standpoint, and I tend to think the game is better for it.

After all, consider the counterpoint to what you're saying.

"Remember those good old times when we could main the spec we like, and not be required to grind out materials and items for every spec? Those times we weren't punished for playing a spec we like because game mechanics require switching?"

There's advantages to playing multiple specs now (switching between Destro and Affliction in Nathria is a prime example, or the ability to off-heal/off-tank), it's just there are currently rewards for specialization which is almost universally considered a good thing I would wager. If I spend all my time as a frost DK, I should be ahead system wise of the main spec tank who runs frost on alt night or whatever.

[Dacu]

Remember those good old times when we were maining a class, not a spec? Those times where you weren't punished for changing a spec within the same class?

It doesn't look like it's changing anytime soon, at least in Shadowlands. We're once again being fucked with systems that punish us for playing a class instead of a spec, ie:

• different covenants being bis for specs within the same class depending on the main covenant ability
• then soulbinds/conduits (afaik) also punishing us for changing specs.
• legendaries also being spec specific
• + who knows what else blizzard will try to sneak in during the expansion like they did with essences or corruptions in BfA

What are your opinions of this? Do you actually like that?

It all started when they made those pesky tier sets spec-specific. Fuuuuuck I wish I could still have things like higher block chance as a fury warrior even though they don't tank anymore.
......To answer your question, yeah I like it for the most part. Of course there are some negatives, but being able to focus on a spec just FEELS better. Being a master of one is better than being a novice at many. I think it makes sense RP-wise as well, a fire mage should find benefit from different sources than a frost mage. Sure they both started out by studying the arcane, but they have branched, as should their methods of gaining power.

[Nevcairiel]

The good old times? When exactly? Vanilla only, when most specs were pretty bad?

For the longest time, you had a very strong gear lock-in to your spec with almost all your gear being spec-specific due to class sets being spec-specific. And of course for classes with different roles, also everything else due to mainstat differences.

Then there was a brief time where gear got better, and only weapons and trinkets were left, although if you wanted "BiS" you of course still collected multiple sets due to secondary stats being different per spec.

Of course after that it got a bit worse again, although with BiS requiring a different set before already, really not that much. Legion was probably one of the worse times since weapons were leveled independently.

In short, if you cared about "BiS", you practically always had to do twice the work to play two specs. If you didn't care about BiS and just wore the same gear always, surely covenants won't be any different now.

[kranur]

Remember those good old times when we were maining a class, not a spec? Those times where you weren't punished for changing a spec within the same class?

It doesn't look like it's changing anytime soon, at least in Shadowlands. We're once again being fucked with systems that punish us for playing a class instead of a spec, ie:

• different covenants being bis for specs within the same class depending on the main covenant ability
• then soulbinds/conduits (afaik) also punishing us for changing specs.
• legendaries also being spec specific
• + who knows what else blizzard will try to sneak in during the expansion like they did with essences or corruptions in BfA

What are your opinions of this? Do you actually like that?

What good old times? In classic and tbc you needed totally different gear for tanking, healing and dps-ing .. and even switching from a dps spec to another had different secondary stat weights (tbc+)

In wrath they merges bonus healing with bonus dmg in spellpower and you still couldn't just decide to play a different spec and be all good to go.

[Majerin]

What good old times? In classic and tbc you needed totally different gear for tanking, healing and dps-ing .. and even switching from a dps spec to another had different secondary stat weights (tbc+)

In wrath they merges bonus healing with bonus dmg in spellpower and you still couldn't just decide to play a different spec and be all good to go.

Oh good point, not to mention a class like shaman who would need an entirely different gear set with agility versus intellect. Spirit gear was still in the game until, what, Legion? So quite a hefty penalty for dps with the healer only stat.

[Baneto]

They sure have more hurdles and hoops in place for you now than ever, if you want to change spec and maintain your efficiency.

I dont remember it being like this back in Cata or MoP, when did they begin with these things? (I dont care about vanilla-wotlk as I started in Cata)

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

I'm not sure what good old times we're looking back to? I remember tier sets that were spec specific, completely different gear for healing/tanking/dps for triple role classes etc. Are we just talking pure dps classes? That had usually wanted different secondary stats, trinkets and/or weapons? Or are we just talking about min maxing "a little" but not actually min maxing?

I do agree however that the souldbinds not having spec loadouts is kinda pointless. On the other hand i would hate to wait on every boss as the whole raid goes to their covenant HQ to change optimal ones on bosses that don't require it. Current system does allow you to swap stuff for progression pretty freely but still, there has to be a more elegant answer.

edit: Shadowlands isn't even close to as annoying as artifact weapons or azerite armor. The difference is huge during prog weeks especially. Only real annoyance is timegating legendaries that you can only equip one of in the first place. I don't understand timegating lateral gear system like that.

[mauserr]

It all started when they made those pesky tier sets spec-specific. Fuuuuuck I wish I could still have things like higher block chance as a fury warrior even though they don't tank anymore.
......To answer your question, yeah I like it for the most part. Of course there are some negatives, but being able to focus on a spec just FEELS better. Being a master of one is better than being a novice at many. I think it makes sense RP-wise as well, a fire mage should find benefit from different sources than a frost mage. Sure they both started out by studying the arcane, but they have branched, as should their methods of gaining power.

That shit came back with Azerite. I don't think MoP or WoD or even Legion had spec-specific tier sets. They were all class wide, were they not? Tier sets were perfectly fine in Legion. The rest not so much, what was fucked in Legion was separate artifacts and relics for them alongside Legiondaries until they fixed the drop rates, added a bad luck protection and eventually allowed you to actually see the progress towards one.

The good old times? When exactly? Vanilla only, when most specs were pretty bad?

For the longest time, you had a very strong gear lock-in to your spec with almost all your gear being spec-specific due to class sets being spec-specific. And of course for classes with different roles, also everything else due to mainstat differences.

Then there was a brief time where gear got better, and only weapons and trinkets were left, although if you wanted "BiS" you of course still collected multiple sets due to secondary stats being different per spec.

Of course after that it got a bit worse again, although with BiS requiring a different set before already, really not that much. Legion was probably one of the worse times since weapons were leveled independently.

In short, if you cared about "BiS", you practically always had to do twice the work to play two specs. If you didn't care about BiS and just wore the same gear always, surely covenants won't be any different now.

Yes, you had to get additional gearsets, but that was it. In Shadowlands even if you have different gearsets you are still punished by not having spec specific covenants. Having to progress each spec covenant would be fine, but you don't even have that as an option. Legendaries could be improved to work the same way tier sets used to work (effects change depending on your active spec) before they were traded off for azerite pieces which were a step backwards from tier sets.

What good old times? In classic and tbc you needed totally different gear for tanking, healing and dps-ing .. and even switching from a dps spec to another had different secondary stat weights (tbc+)

In wrath they merges bonus healing with bonus dmg in spellpower and you still couldn't just decide to play a different spec and be all good to go.

Stat weights are fine. That's a gear set you get once and forget about it until the next tier. That is a solution that's infinitely better than what we will have in Shadowlands and what we had in Legion or BFA with different artifacts having separate trait progressions and having separate relics. Tier sets were class wide, meaning you only needed to get them once and their effects changed depending on the spec you were currently using.

Oh good point, not to mention a class like shaman who would need an entirely different gear set with agility versus intellect. Spirit gear was still in the game until, what, Legion? So quite a hefty penalty for dps with the healer only stat.

I was a dps for the vast majority of time so I didn't consider healers at that time, so yes, my bad, but that was still better than what we had in legion, bfa and what we will have in Shadowlands. Reforging was a thing and you could salvage a few missing stat pieces that way and it was usually good enough to still competetively play the spec.

I'm not sure what good old times we're looking back to? I remember tier sets that were spec specific, completely different gear for healing/tanking/dps for triple role classes etc. Are we just talking pure dps classes? That had usually wanted different secondary stats, trinkets and/or weapons? Or are we just talking about min maxing "a little" but not actually min maxing?

I do agree however that the souldbinds not having spec loadouts is kinda pointless. On the other hand i would hate to wait on every boss as the whole raid goes to their covenant HQ to change optimal ones on bosses that don't require it. Current system does allow you to swap stuff for progression pretty freely but still, there has to be a more elegant answer.

When was that? I remember Cata, MoP and WoD having class specific tier sets, not spec specific. The only thing that prevented you from swapping specs rather effortlessly in MoP was the legendary cloak, but that had a nice catch up mechanic added for it for the other specs, so I'm not sure that was a problem. You did that once and you were DONE for the other specs. In Shadowlands that is no longer the case - you are always locked to one covenant at a time. You can't individually progress different covenants on each spec. That would be fine - nobody would expect you to have all covenants progressed to the same degree your main spec one would, having to progress it from scratch for an offspec would be fine, if we were able to do that. But we're not.

I don't like being punished for switching specs, but I'm still a massive fan of specs being mini classes and I want as little of fire and frost as possible in my arcane mage

That would basically be what current "unpruning" is, isn't it? Bringing random spells like fireblast back to specs like frost or arcane. I'm not talking about that, really, but stuff like specs not being able to have spec-specific covenants.

[kranur]

That shit came back with Azerite. I don't think MoP or WoD or even Legion had spec-specific tier sets. They were all class wide, were they not? Tier sets were perfectly fine in Legion. The rest not so much, what was fucked in Legion was separate artifacts and relics for them alongside Legiondaries until they fixed the drop rates, added a bad luck protection and eventually allowed you to actually see the progress towards one.



Yes, you had to get additional gearsets, but that was it. In Shadowlands even if you have different gearsets you are still punished by not having spec specific covenants. Having to progress each spec covenant would be fine, but you don't even have that as an option. Legendaries could be improved to work the same way tier sets used to work (effects change depending on your active spec) before they were traded off for azerite pieces which were a step backwards from tier sets.



Stat weights are fine. That's a gear set you get once and forget about it until the next tier. That is a solution that's infinitely better than what we will have in Shadowlands and what we had in Legion or BFA with different artifacts having separate trait progressions and having separate relics. Tier sets were class wide, meaning you only needed to get them once and their effects changed depending on the spec you were currently using.



I was a dps for the vast majority of time so I didn't consider healers at that time, so yes, my bad, but that was still better than what we had in legion, bfa and what we will have in Shadowlands. Reforging was a thing and you could salvage a few missing stat pieces that way and it was usually good enough to still competetively play the spec.



When was that? I remember Cata, MoP and WoD having class specific tier sets, not spec specific. The only thing that prevented you from swapping specs rather effortlessly in MoP was the legendary cloak, but that had a nice catch up mechanic added for it for the other specs, so I'm not sure that was a problem. You did that once and you were DONE for the other specs. In Shadowlands that is no longer the case - you are always locked to one covenant at a time. You can't individually progress different covenants on each spec. That would be fine - nobody would expect you to have all covenants progressed to the same degree your main spec one would, having to progress it from scratch for an offspec would be fine, if we were able to do that. But we're not.



That would basically be what current "unpruning" is, isn't it? Bringing random spells like fireblast back to specs like frost or arcane. I'm not talking about that, really, but stuff like specs not being able to have spec-specific covenants.

You need to do 2 things.

Wake up from the dream that you ever had only 1 set of gear that was optimal for all specs.

Stop pretending that you play at a level where you need to have the absolute best covenant abilities for all specs.

Picking a coventant that is best for a spec and not the bedt for another is more than fine. It's still a usable thing.

[Florena]

Do you mean back when there was a rising gold cost every time you respeced so if you were respecing often you had to pay a lot of gold to do so, versus today where you can swap between specs and talents painlessly?

[mauserr]

You need to do 2 things.

Wake up from the dream that you ever had only 1 set of gear that was optimal for all specs.

Stop pretending that you play at a level where you need to have the absolute best covenant abilities for all specs.

Picking a coventant that is best for a spec and not the bedt for another is more than fine. It's still a usable thing.

I've raided world in MoP at a level which allowed us to get to world #42 in SoO and then we managed to get to world #42 in HFC in WoD, I'd say that's a level that requires being optimal - those two are the periods of time to which I'm mostly referring to as "good old times". Having a different gear set is not a problem. I have also never claimed you only needed one set of gear for every spec, that's bullshit and I don't know where you got that from. You are also pushing your side of the argument a bit too hard because for certain classes, or at least the one I played, there were some stat overlaps between specs or you didn't have "perfect" items the way you do right now - you can pretty much have the entire set be like crit/mastery because right now Blizzard tends to design items better. In MoP for example, where I was at my best, having items with incorrect stats and reforging them was a thing because for some specs there were simply no items available for every single slot that had your BiS stats so you did what you could with reforging to be as close as possible to perfect itemisation.

And you're partially right - right now I do not play at a level where that matters. I just can't be bothered anymore to maintain 3 or more alts to stay at the same level that used to be much less demanding time-wise before. But that is another thing. You can stop playing in guilds like that, but you can't get rid of that mentality, it always haunts you and it is annoying when you can't play everything you want because your mind tells you that you will be suboptimal, even if you don't need that level of being optimal anymore and even if playing another spec suboptimally would give you more fun than you would otherwise get from playing another spec with perfect itemisation, legendary, conduit, covenant and whatever else Blizzard will throw at us combo.

Do you mean back when there was a rising gold cost every time you respeced so if you were respecing often you had to pay a lot of gold to do so, versus today where you can swap between specs and talents painlessly?

We need to get rid of the notion that Classic is anywhere close to the "good old times". Classic is shitty example of good system design. Think more like MoP or WoD where class design was at it's peak and systems weren't stacked on top of another to artificially gate you. You can swap specs and talents, but you are held back by shitty designs like covenants, conduits and whatnot that are spec specific. I don't think you've quite understood the argument, did you now?

Anyway, the poll results are as expected. I'd wager that if you conducted a similar poll like that in game upon logging in, so basically every person that plays the game had to participate, the result would be the same - the overhwhelming majority of partakers would be against systems soft-locking us to a spec.

[AngerFork]

First thought before I get into it: your poll question is trying to lead the answers. By specifically mentioning it as "being punished," you are very much trying to force people to answer and think about it a certain way. There is certainly some spec specific design and I definitely agree that it's worth asking about, but the way the question is asked makes it sound like you feel Blizz are sitting in meeting rooms specifically asking how they can punish their player base which is almost certainly not the case.

In any case, I personally see some benefits to the spec specific design. While there is certainly a "best covenant" for me to choose as a Resto Druid, it does force me to at least consider which abilities I might want to use more if I want to play multiple specs. This isn't like Azerite where you specifically had certain tiers where certain abilities were a necessity for one spec and literally useless for another. Each ability has at least someway it can help out a certain spec, even if it isn't nearly as good as the other abilities numerically. Perhaps I have the Venthyr door for an extra easy teleport or the Night Fae one for a ton of spells flying out all at once. It does make it so not every druid is the exact same, even if they are 95% the same.

There's perhaps a good discussion to be had as to whether there should have been abilities that could affect DPS/HPS or whether they should've kept them as utility abilities, but I can see situations with my healers at least where I could properly want something from each covenant. Even if the same class has different BIS covenants by numbers, the utility and other things I can gain from them to me outweighs the pressure of feeling bad for not min/maxing a largely RP element.

As for the other items listed, I'll admit I've not yet looked much at soulbinds and conduits, so I won't speak to those. But legendaries being spec specific is really not that bad, given that we can choose what we craft. This isn't Legion where I wound up needing to change guilds because I didn't get the right drop, I at least can control this one. And dual-spec players will be able to craft their main spec BIS first, then do the off spec BIS after that. This isn't really a big loss, and the loss for split spec players lessens as time goes on.

[Saltysquidoon]

You've almost always been 'punished' for changing spec in the past (via gear). The difference with covenants (even between azerite and AP) is depending on how the sims shake out there's nothing to do to ameliorate it, you can't grind for appropriate gear or run maw 10,000 times to get your off-spec up to par.
And that's just bad design imo.

Not to mention the whole appeal to nostalgia supposed meta swing back of "you're playing a class not a spec" that Blizzard's PR was shilling to sell the 'unpruning' as something more than a low devtime expansion feature. It seems to me designing a system that explicitly works against that stated goal is bad design.

[Hitei]

You've almost always been 'punished' for changing spec in the past (via gear). The difference with covenants (even between azerite and AP) is depending on how the sims shake out there's nothing to do to ameliorate it, you can't grind for appropriate gear or run maw 10,000 times to get your off-spec up to par.

You can 100% get your off-spec up to par. What you're seeking is getting your off-spec to a hole-in-one.

[Saltysquidoon]

You can 100% get your off-spec up to par. What you're seeking is getting your off-spec to a hole-in-one.

Witticisms don't change the objective truth that if you were inclined with past systems you could grind for equality (whether that was worth it or not is a different conversation) whereas with this system that self same difference is consigned to the whims of the sim.

[Spazzix]

I don't think mainstat switched on gear until WoD?
So if you think respeccing azerite or having a semi-permanent covenant is unfair, how about getting a completely new set of gear for every slot? Hope you don't like to multispec in both pvp and pve. Uh oh, M+ and raid gear are completely different for both of my specs.
No problem I'll just farm out 6 sets of gear...
...
...

I like the idea of an RPG making players more individual. Instead of Warrior #45987498574 in some random group, you can now be that badass fury warrior who is really good at using covenant X. And people will say, "yeah, but then you're gonna be that garbage warrior who never gets invited to M+ because covenant X is bad there". Well, you can pick and choose who you play with and how you play. There are players of every spec who push very very high levels of content and achievement. It's not because their spec (and in SL, covenant) is/are optimal, it's because they are a good player and they have found players smart enough to take an exceptional player. Figure out what you can do that other players can't (and other covenants for your class can't do.)

If you play at a level high enough for it to matter, YOU are choosing to accept the burdens that come with it. If you wanna race for world first, you can't complain about needing alts or split raids. You don't have to do that stuff to clear the content; you only need to do it if getting a top world spot is valuable to you. You want to be world first AND play class X AND AND play spec Y of that class AND AND AND choose covenant Z AND AND AND AND be rank 1 in arena AND AND AND AND AND you need to get rank 1 at the same time you're getting world first in raid (cause otherwise, ya know you ARE allowed to swap covenants when you decide you really wanna push a particular type of content) well...maybe too bad? Or maybe if you play at such an incredibly high level, make an alt for a different covenant? Or did you want an "AND AND AND AND AND AND I want to do it all while being fully immersed in the lore as a 100% roleplay character [cause that's what world first and rank 1 are all about...]"?

Witticisms don't change the objective truth that if you were inclined with past systems you could grind for equality (whether that was worth it or not is a different conversation) whereas with this system that self same difference is consigned to the whims of the sim.

The reality though, is that a 1 week wait period on covenant swaps (I think that's still the current system?) is actually vastly preferable to getting BiS for some specs. My season 4 M+ BiS azerite would have required 60000 titan residuum if I wanted to be purely pve or 40000 + pvp luck for a 475 trohpy OR even worse than any of that: 40 quartermaster tickets.
So, I could be BiS what...4 or 5 months into the patch? Vs covenants sometimes being suboptimal BUT completely in my control and completely accessible?
Know what though, I never got BiS and somehow managed a top 10 for my spec. Crazy that a few percentage points don't actually make an actual difference to more than one or two-hundred players worldwide...
If the community wants to erroneously weight the importance of sims and disparities, that's on it. I have a lot of issues with Blizzard's design decisions, but there choice to not dumb down covenants to a picture-book level isn't the evil that people are so hell bent on making it.

[Garymorilix]

You are basically playing either a mage, a rogue or a warlock if you make this stupid af post.

Name one instance where you HAD to play multiple specs at once with any of these pure dps classes?

[Hitei]

Witticisms don't change the objective truth that if you were inclined with past systems you could grind for equality (whether that was worth it or not is a different conversation) whereas with this system that self same difference is consigned to the whims of the sim.

Not really a witticism. Par does not mean equal to complete optimality, it means reaching the norm, an average. You being inclined to grind gear isn't going to suddenly make your subtlety off-spec as good as outlaw for mythic+. You have literally always been "consigned to the whims of the sim". All you've ever been able to do is bring your off-spec up to the best level possible after for its capabilities after the resource investment of your main spec, be that gear and weapons, or artifact power, or which covenant you picked.