Thoughts of Elemental in Shadowlands Beta

[Beingbob]

I think what we're seeing here is a mix of several dev goals conspiring to bring that proc rate down:

• Try to free up some GCDs for covenant abilities, Echoing Shock/Elem Blast. (Shorter Flame Shock duration, on single-target costs us 1.25s per minute per target)
• Try to reign in burst from the higher LvB damage, + Echoing Shock, + Ascendance, +Windspeaker's Lava Resurgence
• Try to reduce our casting mobility (To offset new 'mobile value' stuff: Echoing Shock, Spiritwalker, LolStaticDischarge?, HST, Windspeaker's Lava Resurgence)
• Try to get that first talent row more balanced (Echo of the Elements is significantly less valuable with a lower proc rate, )
• Create room for extra ES GCDs produced by High Voltage conduit, as we return to having high mastery? (Since ES is lower prio than LvB, aside from capping)
• Shift Ele more to a cooldown-based spec than a resource-based spec (high surge proc rate effectively removes LvB cooldown)

I'm just guessing that those are their goals, but I think they're all pretty obvious, and it is a fairly effective solution to them all.

Going from 20% to 10% proc rate is a stark shift, but I'm not convinced it will ultimately feel bad. Obviously for some players it will, but it's not like Ele is regressing to "immobile turret", nor will we lack for hard-hitting burst lineups.

Nerfing the baseline shaman to make up for burrowed powers is a terrible idea, as is "nerfing" Echo of the Elements instead of making it baseline like we've asked for for multiple expansions now.

If they wanted to reduce the potential for crazy funneling LvBs with multiple flameshocks up, they should've made subsequent flame shocks after the 1st provide a reduced proc chance, not reduce our procs in ST by 33%, which is a huge reduction.

There's really no question it doesn't feel bad, anyone with beta can easily test out how bad it is compared to live, and indeed many people have which is why Tiqqle's post in the shaman feedback thread is one of the most liked in the entire gigantic thread.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

What??? They nerfed Lava Surge???



W H Y

[CID-77]

Yeah for me it really isn't about the numbers. I'm not delusional enough to think I play at a level where a few % of damage makes a difference for me. But the LvB procs really make Ele come to life for me. It's all about the way it feels. Having close to half the procs sucks beyond words. Maining a Shaman for me requires both Ele en Enh to be good, and Resto to be fun for the occasional change of pace. I want two of my main's specs to be awesome, and the third fun enough for variation. Enh is at a level I enjoy currently, but this change pushed Ele down a lot for me. This class is now 3rd of 4th on my list to level, and I really, really, really want it to be 1st...

[Tantypops]

I despise the Kyrian covenant because of aesthetic reasons, so I've been checking the other covenant's abilities - is there a reason to cast Night Fae or Venthyr ability for single target for elemental shaman? The damage seems too low for the cast times, they provide no maelstrom and cannot overload. Looks like blizz will continue to shit on shamans for this expansion too.

I agree that the Lava Surge nerf is pointless, if they don't want us multidotting, just have it trigger from the latest Flame Shock, but no, someone has a grudge since the bus shock incident and they will not yield.

[rabbimojo]

I despise the Kyrian covenant because of aesthetic reasons, so I've been checking the other covenant's abilities - is there a reason to cast Night Fae or Venthyr ability for single target for elemental shaman? The damage seems too low for the cast times, they provide no maelstrom and cannot overload. Looks like blizz will continue to shit on shamans for this expansion too.

I agree that the Lava Surge nerf is pointless, if they don't want us multidotting, just have it trigger from the latest Flame Shock, but no, someone has a grudge since the bus shock incident and they will not yield.

Night Fae is 564% (afaiu) Nature over 3 seconds, split meteor-style. With MotE that's 225.6%/sec, which is certainly worth casting. If you add the extra GCD in to spend the heal, that may come into question, but you could just ignore that part.

[HCLM]

NF is ST covenant, Venthyr burst AoE, Necro/Kyrian are good in all scenarios. At the moment necro is a bit ahead of other covenant, but all covenants are rather close to each other.

[Tantypops]

Also why are ele conduits all dogshit? Nothing seems to be of interest, for single target; longer fire elemental that just hits like a wet noodle? earth shock has a CHANCE to increase FS duration? Lightning bolt that is cast less often with proper talents has a CHANCE to generate maelstrom for earth shock that hits less than lava burst? I mean, what will be the difference in having a higher level conduit in this case, <0.1%? Has there been no feedback during the beta? Is everyone content with these?

[rabbimojo]

Also why are ele conduits all dogshit? Nothing seems to be of interest, for single target; longer fire elemental that just hits like a wet noodle? earth shock has a CHANCE to increase FS duration? Lightning bolt that is cast less often with proper talents has a CHANCE to generate maelstrom for earth shock that hits less than lava burst? I mean, what will be the difference in having a higher level conduit in this case, <0.1%? Has there been no feedback during the beta? Is everyone content with these?

Agreed, they're very strange and I'm not excited about them, but they're a bit stronger than that. E.g. sure, ES doesn't hit as hard as LvB, but ES has interactions LvB doesn't, especially with legendaries. With Windspeaker's, ES is worth an additional 1.2 LvBs. With Echoes, ES is worth on average 40% more on single target, and dramatically more in some situations (e.g. where you switch between ST and AOE now and then, or 2 cleave-y targets).

I grabbed a random pre-patch heroic n'zoth with a middle-performing ele to do some sanity-check napkinmath. Obviously this will be quite different in SL, but it's acceptable for ballpark estimates.

Fire/Storm Elem lasts 35% longer: 2-4%? (3-6% max rank)
Primal FE was 6.33% of this shaman's damage, meaning right away this could be around ~2.2% bonus damage.

The elem uptime also benefits you: Fire elem = Lava Surge procs/longer Flame Shocks = damage. Storm elem = LB haste (mostly high-stack!) = damage.

Add Surge of Power -cooldown, and maybe Skybreaker's Fiery Demise -cooldown, super high uptime?

LB has a 25% chance to generate double Maelstrom: 1-3%? (~1.6-5% max rank)
This parse the sham generated ~4.2 maelstrom/sec. Conduit would be a 3.74% increase in their ms gen, 4.62% if it affects overloads.

Spent on ES, their 3.74% ms is ~0.41% increase in dps, and 4.62% ms is ~0.50%. Either way, not great.

This is one that might be most off, however. In SL, fewer GCDs will be spent on LvB, meaning more on LB. It also interacts very well with a Storm Elem uptime build. Sims will show one way or another, but plausible it could be strong.

Gut feeling is this might be closer to a 1% increase, perhaps 2-3% in a focused build.

ES has 15% chance to extend FS duration by 12s: 1-1.2%? (2.4-3% max rank)
This parse, flame shock was cast 31 times in the 510s of the fight, and with ~15% haste I think that is around 40 seconds spent casting FS. The ES proc is 2/3rds of an FS, saving here about 0.87s per proc.

Parse has 30 ES casts, so that translates to 3.915s time saved. Worst case that would be spent on LB, so around 2.25 LBs. This parse, that would have added ~0.8% damage. Again, not great.

If we assume a player is building around this, they might take aftershock, essentially 25% more ES casts, so ~1%. Elem Blast on its own is close to a 50% increase in maelstrom gen, and would synergize well with the saved GCDs, so maybe 1.2%?


Not exciting, but what % should these be? 2%? 5%? 20%? What is the range for other specs?

[Beingbob]

Man this last minute Lava Surge nerf and Echoing Shock change feels bad. I routinely go for like 10 seconds without getting a proc in ST now, really cheapens the Master of the Elements playstyle because I simply can't buff the majority of Earth Shocks/Earthquakes at times, nevermind Frost Shocks.

The Echoing Shock change also really reduces the fun of the ability. Now it's completely static, just spend it on Lava Burst in ST and Earthquake in multi-target... whereas before you'd spend some on Lava Burst, some on Lightning Bolt, some on Earthquake, some on Chain Lightning.

Even worse, going Elemental Blast instead of Echoing Shock synergizes kinda poorly with the traditional Master of the Elements + Icefury playstyle, because you get so many resources that you barely have time to spend your Frost Shocks between dumping extra finishers and casting Elemental Blast every 8 seconds. They really should increase the CD of that ability...

Not gonna lie, kinda feel deceived now. The purpose of the prepatch is to get a chance to test out the new expansions gameplay, but in this case our prepatch playstyle felt better than the one we have now... well at least rank 2 Fire Elemental and Primordial Wave feels kinda nice...

[HCLM]

Man this last minute Lava Surge nerf and Echoing Shock change feels bad. I routinely go for like 10 seconds without getting a proc in ST now, really cheapens the Master of the Elements playstyle because I simply can't buff the majority of Earth Shocks/Earthquakes at times, nevermind Frost Shocks.

The Echoing Shock change also really reduces the fun of the ability. Now it's completely static, just spend it on Lava Burst in ST and Earthquake in multi-target... whereas before you'd spend some on Lava Burst, some on Lightning Bolt, some on Earthquake, some on Chain Lightning.

Even worse, going Elemental Blast instead of Echoing Shock synergizes kinda poorly with the traditional Master of the Elements + Icefury playstyle, because you get so many resources that you barely have time to spend your Frost Shocks between dumping extra finishers and casting Elemental Blast every 8 seconds. They really should increase the CD of that ability...

Not gonna lie, kinda feel deceived now. The purpose of the prepatch is to get a chance to test out the new expansions gameplay, but in this case our prepatch playstyle felt better than the one we have now... well at least rank 2 Fire Elemental and Primordial Wave feels kinda nice...

We knew SK LB/CL interaction was working incorrectly on live as soon as pre patch hit live.

U dont play EB with IF, but with PE. Also EB has 12s cd not 8.

[Beingbob]

We knew SK LB/CL interaction was working incorrectly on live as soon as pre patch hit live.

No we didn't. There was widespread speculation on Earthshrine and youtube as to which interaction was correct, because the one we have now is dumb as hell (using Echoing Shock on Stormkeeper'd abilities is a huge noob trap whereas intuitively one would assume you'd want to echo your most powerful ability).

[HCLM]

No we didn't. There was widespread speculation on Earthshrine and youtube as to which interaction was correct, because the one we have now is dumb as hell (using Echoing Shock on Stormkeeper'd abilities is a huge noob trap whereas intuitively one would assume you'd want to echo your most powerful ability).

It wasn't really speculation. Everyone was saying from day1 that Beta interaction is most likely the intended interaction, which was confirmed soon after.

[apelsinjuice]

i dont know if raidbots sim for ele is just broken but my ilvl 170 ele sims at 2,5k while swapping to ench with equal ilvl and pretty similar trinkets/soulbind/conduits sims 3,3k, seems ele is pretty far behind the rest

[HCLM]

i dont know if raidbots sim for ele is just broken but my ilvl 170 ele sims at 2,5k while swapping to ench with equal ilvl and pretty similar trinkets/soulbind/conduits sims 3,3k, seems ele is pretty far behind the rest

Sims have no value if u are trying to use it to compare classes or specs...