I find it really interesting that a lot of people in this thread are basically word for word using the same language that was used in a dev post from legion to explain why it was ok DK's only had wraith walk. And somehow retroactively applying that to DKs from all of the rest of the expansions and previous games.
Not to mention blizzard walked back from this position with the (re)addition of death's advance when it became apparent wraith walk was not only insufficient mobility but also buggy liquid shit that you needed to glyph to be reliable in raids.
So no, anyone with an actual history of the class knows the 'slow juggernaut' thing is a meme from legion (especially given our high uptime ST damage is often 'meh' tier). I will say in mitigation DK's often have enhanced ranged tools and utility (ams, amz, grip and mass grip at different points in the game's lifecycle) and now better aoe to somewhat compensate.
Does it make the class strong in high mobility fights/situations? No, not at all.
Is the class unplayably bad as a result? Equally no.
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They perform as expected for a character with just one movement boost. Like priests and warlocks do. They are not strong, they are fine, better than those without strong mobility passives/actives, worse than those who do. Keep in mind that i'm not trying to measure their overall performance, only their mobility (how quickly they can get to and out of stuff). I'm not pretending that DKs are great at it, they are doing just fine - because all content is designed with DKs (and anyone else without passive 130% movement, heroic leap, rolls or grappling hooks) in mind. Being at the lower end of this gauge doesn't mean that something is broken and needs to be fixed, because there is always someone on the lower end.
I understand that some players will in fact find their mobility to be difficult, especially when they fail to walk away with "you are the bomb" kind of debuffs (you still have that 30% MS increase on a short cooldown, even without it encounters are never designed for you to autofail it without a mobility cooldown), but that's how class design goes - you don't have many mobility boosts.
On the other hand - you still benefit from this "can't below 70% MS" part of that skill, and when others would go from 100 to 50 MS (or 130 to 65) you are still moving faster than they do, which is a kind of flavor and "situational utility". Correct me if i'm wrong, but you could cheese some mechanics in ny'alotha with AMS and death's advance (creeping madness from wrathion comes to mind, you can't get below 70% MS and you can ignore these stacks with AMS; or 100% slow on shad'har)
Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-11-14 at 02:56 PM.
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
Isn't one of the designs with DK that they do have minimal movement abilities compared to others? It's sort of their niche.
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Point me at mage self-healing please, because i still can't figure it out, unless you count cauterize (fire exclusive, which heals you back to 40% from a lethal blow and burns away 35% of your health) or alter time (arcane exclusive, which gives you an ability to "savescum" damage)
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Death grip, magic immunity, stun immunity, slow resistance, significantly better self-healing capabilities than anyone you mentioned - yeah, they have plenty of tools to stay on target. It's disingenuous to point at one ability and turn the blind eye on everything else, DKs are designed to be slow and they get tools they need to deal with it.
If you really want that heroic leap this badly you'll have to roll a warrior, or rebalance DKs accordingly, would you be fine having a heroic leap, but no death's advance and deathgrip and AMS would only dispel magic, instead of making you immune to it? That's the kind of rebalancing it would require to give DKs abilities from other classes
Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-11-14 at 03:07 PM.
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
Deathknights get deathgrip and a distinct lack of mobility.
The point being: What do other classes give up that makes it even with DKs giving up mobility in this way? This is problem I'm trying to wrap my head around. There's this idea that's apparently stuck in people's minds that Dks MUST be slow. Why? What balance is that serving? That's why I listed other classes and their abilities. Because they don't appear to be giving up anything. And the reason I used Deathgrip for the comparison is because that's what DK players in this thread have claimed is the tradeoff.
I'm completely open to being wrong. I just want to see some comprehensive explanation other than 'Well that's what DKs are."
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It does not need to be "as fast as every other class". It just doesn't need to be overly punished going into Shadowlands where there's a number of environmental and consumable/enchant/gearing changes that Blizzard doesn't appear to have recognized how much it's going to effect the class.
I brought up this point in an earlier post, and I don't think it's a fair comparison to make. Priests and Warlocks are something like 99% ranged, with their entire class power dynamic built around having range, while DKs are, for the most part, primarily a melee-centric class. Yes, they can operate sort of decent at close to mid ranges, but nothing like the performance of a dedicated RDPS.
You'd want to check soulbinds then, do you think it's a coincidence, that you get MS boosting options in there? Grab kyrian, enjoy free 10% MS as long as you kill things on your way (and 35% MS bonus from steward), grab some MS potions from AH. Or night fae for 20% MS out of combat after kills. Or outright 30 minutes 20% MS boost when you spend some time in rested areas
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You imply that ranged dps don't have to move? Or is there a sort of encounter where the boss moves in circles non-stop and no one but those with +30% MS can keep up with it? I honestly don't think that it's fair to compare DKs mobility to warriors mobility, because that's two different classes with very different toolkits, isn't that the same thing?
Speaking of "mid-range" performance of DKs, do you think that it's fair that DKs get to do DPS outside of melee range, while warriors can't do any DPS outside of melee range?
Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-11-14 at 04:59 PM.
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
What are you talking about ?
You have deaths advance always
Plus you can choose another one as talent wraith walk.
I don't want to see the game get even more homogenized. I like when just a few classes were known as being "fast" like rogues, shamans in ghost wolf and druids. Now everyone has to have a Divine Steed, Wraith Walk, etc. It's annoying.
If you care so much about being mobile, play a mobile class or buy Swiftness Potions.
Fire and Frost both have damage absorb shields, which are ablative health. While not actual heals, they serve a very similar function. A comparison would be like how a leap or a dash is not underlying movement speed, but still fills the purpose of getting your places.
And according to Wowhead, Alter Time is now baseline, with arcane getting a different version(talented to 30 seconds).
I don't pretend to be an expert on mages at all. But since you brought it up, I'd say that Mage self-healing probably needs a good look from Blizzard in the same way DKs need mobility. Just because another class has something deficient doesn't mean that DKs are ok.
I literally just said, in the post you quoted, that I would talent OUT of Deathgrip in order to gain an actual mobility gain. What about that suggests to you that I would NOT be ok with any of the changes you just suggested?
I think giving the player the option to choose their style of DK would be an overall improvement. Those who want the "unstoppable juggernaut" could talent into that. While those that want the "Devastating Frenzy of Undeath" version could pick that option.
No, they don't. One prevents damage, other heals damage taken. Mages don't have any self-healing, but i won't complain about their survivability. Kinda similar to DKs and movement, DKs don't have huge bursts of MS or a charge, but somehow they still don't log behind other melee players in PvE, and not a laughing stock in PvP.
And no, mages self-healing shouldn't be looked at, we already experienced what it looks like, when blizzard homogenizes everything (WotLK)
Because then you wouldn't be playing a DK. You know, the idea of swapping features of your class in favor of features of another class sounds like... a case of rerolling a character, not a case of something broken.
You do have that choice in form a talents and later in SL - covenants. Your "devastating frenzy of undeath" is literally unholy DK, unless you want DK to zoom around the battlefield like a ninja or something.
On a broader scope - giving players access to this kind of customization is not very healthy for a videogame, because:
1) powergaming is a thing and there will be a whole lot of broken builds
2) being able to get advantages of one class, and advantages of another class, while losing their disadvantages is broken itself as an idea.
Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-11-14 at 05:20 PM. Reason: Apparently yes, all mages get alter time, but it's a level 58 ability for fire and frost
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
Can you provide actual links? The only info I couldn't find the 10% MS on kill anywhere. I do know that "on kill" effects are generally not reliable in groups, however, especially with DKs execute ability being rather limited. And certainly not useful mid-boss fight when you often need mobility on demand.
And the Steward bonus appears to be a data-mined version or something. There's not a lot of info on how the ability works. But from the wowhead stats it would appear to be an aura of 100 yards. Whether that's a static item, or something that follows the player isn't clear. Because if it's an aura that's literally 30% movement that's on for 4 minutes, usable every 5 minutes, then you're right that DKs have no complaints at that point.
However, if it's what I suspect: A static effect that only works in the 100y radius area that DOESN'T move, then that seems a bit more limited. Although certainly it would be excellent for a boss-arena.
I am, however, starting to see that you have a point about there being more options than I first thought. I would point out, however, that classes that already have mobility will be able to choose more useful abilities while the DK is "forced" into choosing mobility instead of something else they might like. (Yes I used "forced". Just think of it in terms of "Strongly de-incentivized to choose something else)
No, I imply that ranged classes work under a different dynamic and balance that melee classes, with mobility having different priority. A ranged class can apply 99% of their abilities from anywhere in their effective range. While a melee class must generally close to...melee....in order to be effective.
You're the one who brought up the comparison of locks and priests to DK, not me. I was just pointing out it was a flawed comparison.
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You mean like how many classes were gutted and completely altered in the name of "Class Fantasy"?
Considering where DKs used to be in terms of playstyle options and original class design, it seems off-base to write what you just did. Another poster already pointed out how mobile DKs were all the way back to the original RTS games.
So please don't use the argument that "I wouldn't be playing a DK" when the levels of mobility and movement I'm suggesting is basically just back to what the class STARTED with when it was introduced.
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I don't have a problem with there being some disadvantages and advantages. My original point was that the mobility disadvantage for DKs is beyond what I believe to be fair. Punishing, even, when compared to other classes.
Customization is not inherently bad. Path of Exile is a fine example of that. And I'm not saying Dks should be able to constantly move as fast as a Druid. I'm just saying they should have their overall baseline mobility increased a little so as to not be so damned punishing. There's a world of difference between that and "Powergaming", as you suggest.
Anyway, we're arguing in circles. I'll at least concede that you have some fair points. And I'll continue to work on leveling and playing a DK of my own into Shadowlands to get some first hand experience. The only thing I would like to close with is that you should strongly consider not being so married to the idea that DK mobility is fine as it is, and try to look at it from the perspective of a fresh player to the class.
Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-11-14 at 05:40 PM.
I'm not sure why you jumped to raiding, i thought you was concerned about DKs on-foot travel time. But anyways, here is quite powerful MS ability, not sure how it will work in instanced content. You can check soulbind calc on wowhead yourself and you may find something more interesting to you. If you are concerned about forced choice - as an alternative to that MS boosting ability i linked you can get... an automatic slowfall when you fall from high heights.
Well then, as a class that lacks mobility but is able to, you know, deal damage from afar, like DK, isn't that fair that they don't get as many gapclosers as those, who can't do any damage outside of 5 yards of melee range?
Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
That's the entire design mentality behind the class, pretty sure it was even addressed in a blue post years ago. The reason DK's aren't very mobile is a trade-off of being to snare in ST/AoE scenarios as well as being able to grip. If DK's had that toolkit plus were extremely mobile, that wouldn't be very balanced. No class/spec should be the best at everything, and this design is aligned with that sort of thinking.
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Who you quoted was more correct, as everything depends on the content you're tackling, what specs we're talking about, and so forth. Such things can change from patch to patch based upon content changes and rebalancing, as well. I don't think you'll find anyone that would say Blizz always nails the balancing aspects perfectly, but that's not an argument for removing aspects which are in alignment with intended design goals... it should be the other way around.
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