I don't get something about m+15 dropping lower gear than heroic raiding

[Hellobolis]

the reason the gear is lower ilvl is so they can match it later, "encouraging" you to re-farm that one trinket or w/e.

the gear itself being equal ilvl isn't really a problem as long as (and it ussually is) the gear from the raid is simply better and/ore more reliably acquirable for most specs, specifically in the trinkets/azerite/procs department.

raids simply require more effort to do than m+ and that should be reflected in the rewards in some (small) fashion. the ideal solution is that raids give the best raid gear, m+ gives the best m+ gear, and pvp gives the best pvp gear, but that seems like a unachievable utopia.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I think you overestimate how popular raiding is. Not very many people at all do it past normal at the very least. Unhealthy to base a game around a small percentage of players, and if it is about feeling superior, well this is a game not a competition. Play CS:GO if you want to do that.

The main lore of the game is done through raiding. Raiding should either be a separate entity, or not have lockouts. I would prefer it didn't have lockouts, but since it does, the main gearing method for raiding should be raiding. It has nothing to do with superiority - it has to do with systems that the game has in place. And yes - this game is about competition. All games are about competition for competitive people.

[glowpipe]

For people that only do M+, why does the ilvl of M+ rewards in relation to heroic raid gear matter at all?

because higher ilvl = higher key potential. No secret that the people pushing the highest keys today are mythic raiders with mythic raid gear etc.
If you only do m+ and you do not raid at all, m+ rewarding lower ilvl then it used to, means your higher pushing potential is lower

[Belloc]

Name the last time M+ leaderboards were posted on this website. Then name the last time raiding leaderboards were posted. Which is easier? Sources typically aren't needed for common sense facts.

With Mythic Dungeon International and other events, we get Mythic Plus leaderboards about as often as we do Raid leaderboards, especially when you consider that the only time anyone ever cares about raid leaderboards is during the first two weeks of a raid.

[Redroniksre]

The main lore of the game is done through raiding. Raiding should either be a separate entity, or not have lockouts. I would prefer it didn't have lockouts, but since it does, the main gearing method for raiding should be raiding. It has nothing to do with superiority - it has to do with systems that the game has in place. And yes - this game is about competition. All games are about competition for competitive people.

That is great for competitive people, but that is not the game. Just because someone could turn ice cream eating into a competition, doesn't mean ice cream eating by nature is competitive. That said, you are right about a few things. Though i would rather the lore be moved away from raiding, but that isn't going to happen. Raiding without lockouts would just end up with people whining about how they are forced to run it 24/7 and live at their computer. Unfortunately Blizzard has to babysit some people because they get into unhealthy obsessions.

[Whitedragon]

Correct. Instead of needing M+ to compete in raiding, now it's the reverse. That's what I said. Since raiding is more important, I would have to agree that this is a good change.

But that's the failing of your argument as well, M Raiders don't NEED M+ to do the highest level of raiding, it helps gear up faster, but it can be ignored. With this change, in order to do the very top end of M+ you will need to raid mythic for the notably larger I level not provided from M+ in any form. With the old system you still got a little boost from doing mythic raiding but it was such a small gap that you could compete without it.

When blizzard adds a (Super mythic) difficulty to raids that requires 300 I level to even begin to manage but the content it self only rewards 285, while at the same time PvP/M+/Pet Battles dose reward said I level 300 then you can complain that it is forced.

The game is not balance around +20/30 m+, you cant expect Blizzard to set up a reward structure that scale to infinity.

Nor is the game balanced around world first Mythic raiding, I'm not asking them to make the I level scale indefinitely, I'm saying the ability to do the very tightest of M+ runs should be doable with M+ gear. Handicapping the actual M+ players by forcing them into Mythic raiding is the poorly thought out part.

Yes, but mythic+ rewards do not scale indefinitely. So what exactly is your point, besides making a sassy comment?

Purely due to the fact that M+ dose scale indefinitely, it by default is harder then Mythic raiding, why dose the level below Mythic raiding (Heroic) give better gear then something that is harder then mythic raiding? If the argument is "To prevent forced participation of raiders", then why is it then okay to do just that to the M+ crowd?


In the end its the same debate that the PvP crowed has faced since BC (And even Vanilla to an extent), and it really boils down to one of 3 options.

1. Add a "M+ Power" stat that boosts M+ damage or what ever only in M+ (And finally do the same to raiding at the same time), just like resilience and PvP power did.

2. Scale all M+ participants down to the very top end M+ I level, just like they did until recently with PvP (We see how that worked out...)

3. Keep the old system (Or something close to it) and try their best to balance out the rewards to equivalent difficulty.

Once again I don't actually participate in Mythic + to any meaningful degree, I'm just pointing out a glaring flaw (In my opinion) with the system if the information given is correct...

[Kallisto]

The reason it's lower than heroic is so m+ doesn't affect the more popular endgame, raiding. In the past you had raiders gearing for raiding in M+. Now it will be the opposite. Which is good for raiders.

Raiders should know self control and not go into "I am forced."

Instead when something is made as an alternate path treat it as such. Not as a chore. If you're raid leader is being an arse about it tell him to fuck himself with a rusty spork.

[Toby451]

With Mythic Dungeon International and other events, we get Mythic Plus leaderboards about as often as we do Raid leaderboards, especially when you consider that the only time anyone ever cares about raid leaderboards is during the first two weeks of a raid.

World first race gets wayyyy more viewers than MDI ever has or will.


No one cares about M+ leaderbords either until MDI.

[Nite92]

Purely due to the fact that M+ dose scale indefinitely, it by default is harder then Mythic raiding, why dose the level below Mythic raiding (Heroic) give better gear then something that is harder then mythic raiding? If the argument is "To prevent forced participation of raiders", then why is it then okay to do just that to the M+ crowd?


In the end its the same debate as the PvP crowed has faced since BC (And even Vanilla to an extent), and it really boils down to one of 3 options.

1. Add a "M+ Power" stat that boosts M+ damage or what ever only in M+ (And finally do the same to raiding at the same time), just like resilience and PvP power did.

2. Scale all M+ participants down to the very top end M+ I level, just like they did until recently with PvP (We see how that worked out...)

3. Keep the old system (Or something close to it) and try their best to balance out the rewards to equivalent difficulty.

Once again I don't actually participate in Mythic + to any meaningful degree, I'm just pointing out a glaring flaw (In my opinion) with the system if the information given is correct...

I was about to write an essay, but you don't bother to write coherent sentences.

If 5 man content trumps 20 man content in terms of rewards, who will bother with 20 man content?

[Whitedragon]

I was about to write an essay, but you don't bother to write coherent sentences.

If 5 man content trumps 20 man content in terms of rewards, who will bother with 20 man content?

... by that logic 40 man PvP battlegrounds should reward the best gear.... and Normal and LFR should drop better gear then M+.... no what we should be worried about is "If easier content trumps harder content in terms of reward who will bother with harder content?"... Once again I'm not suggesting that M+ beats out mythic in terms of loot (At worst I'm saying that it should be relatively close when the difficulty is similar. That way no one NEEDS to run something they don't like to be competitive in their own field.) but why the hell dose Heroic raiding beat out M+ 16-30? is there any real reason to stop it at 15 if we deem 15 to be at or just below heroic raiding?

[ImpTaimer]

M+ isn't lower. Its on average higher than Heroic Raiding. You can achieve a higher average ilvl farming M+15 than Heroic raid (excluding loot spread bias). The final boss off a raid dropping pieces of loot that is equivalent to the next tier/difficulty has always been a thing.

Killing the final boss of a Heroic Raid is lightly better than M+15 chest, and slightly worse than M+15 weekly chest.

[Soon-TM]

The reason it's lower than heroic is so m+ doesn't affect the more popular endgame, raiding. In the past you had raiders gearing for raiding in M+. Now it will be the opposite. Which is good for raiders.

Pssst... M+ has been widely more popular than raiding since its inception.

[Jonnusthegreat]

But that's the failing of your argument as well, M Raiders don't NEED M+ to do the highest level of raiding, it helps gear up faster, but it can be ignored. With this change, in order to do the very top end of M+ you will need to raid mythic for the notably larger I level not provided from M+ in any form. With the old system you still got a little boost from doing mythic raiding but it was such a small gap that you could compete without it.

When blizzard adds a (Super mythic) difficulty to raids that requires 300 I level to even begin to manage but the content it self only rewards 285, while at the same time PvP/M+/Pet Battles dose reward said I level 300 then you can complain that it is forced.



Nor is the game balanced around world first Mythic raiding, I'm not asking them to make the I level scale indefinitely, I'm saying the ability to do the very tightest of M+ runs should be doable with M+ gear. Handicapping the actual M+ players by forcing them into Mythic raiding is the poorly thought out part.



Purely due to the fact that M+ dose scale indefinitely, it by default is harder then Mythic raiding, why dose the level below Mythic raiding (Heroic) give better gear then something that is harder then mythic raiding? If the argument is "To prevent forced participation of raiders", then why is it then okay to do just that to the M+ crowd?


In the end its the same debate that the PvP crowed has faced since BC (And even Vanilla to an extent), and it really boils down to one of 3 options.

1. Add a "M+ Power" stat that boosts M+ damage or what ever only in M+ (And finally do the same to raiding at the same time), just like resilience and PvP power did.

2. Scale all M+ participants down to the very top end M+ I level, just like they did until recently with PvP (We see how that worked out...)

3. Keep the old system (Or something close to it) and try their best to balance out the rewards to equivalent difficulty.

Once again I don't actually participate in Mythic + to any meaningful degree, I'm just pointing out a glaring flaw (In my opinion) with the system if the information given is correct...

Either way, one group is upset. I'm fine with it as long as raiding is seen as the priority. Raiding will always be the more 'epic' choice, so it should have the best reward. All other forms should be sub-raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

Raiders should know self control and not go into "I am forced."

Instead when something is made as an alternate path treat it as such. Not as a chore. If you're raid leader is being an arse about it tell him to fuck himself with a rusty spork.

Except much like hips, numbers don't lie. If battle pets gave the highest gear level, you can bet your ass that every raider would start doing battle pets.

[Moozart]

Raiding should be the highest gear possible - by a large amount. M+ doesn't have lockouts, so you can get a full set of the best gear day 1. It should be worse.

This, I quit raiding years ago and really only do m+. You need more people, more of everything for raiding. I don't have a problem with them having better gear. If I get to a point where I want better gear I can commit to raiding again. I like the flexibility of M+ over raiding. People who complain over this will never be satisfed no matter what, they are the same people that could receive $100 for free and say "Only $100?"

[Aggrophobic]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

Yeah, it's beyond stupid.
Blizzard has been told this since they came up with the idea but they don't really care.
M+ is just not worht doing anymore.

[Elias01]

Pssst... M+ has been widely more popular than raiding since its inception.

Path of least resitance will always be more popular.

[Baneto]

Yeah, it's beyond stupid.
Blizzard has been told this since they came up with the idea but they don't really care.
M+ is just not worht doing anymore.

Why is m+ not worth doing anymore exactly? And what does it have to do with raiding?

Did they remove the weekly chest rewards from m+? Or raider.io score?

What did I miss?

[enderzone]

Why is m+ not worth doing anymore exactly? And what does it have to do with raiding?

Did they remove the weekly chest rewards from m+? Or raider.io score?

What did I miss?

If your goal is to push and I mean really push think 25+ as a starting point you more or less need to mythic raid to compete same with pvp.

If they want to push such a system for mythic+ I feel they should have the aura to cap gear and actively disable raid trinkets from it. It is more about letting it become its own game mode I believe though some people I am sure want their easy gear from 15s as well.

[Soon-TM]

Path of least resitance will always be more popular.

M+ isn't the "path of least resistance", it's just far more accessible.

[ShaanuJaanu]

M+ isn't the "path of least resistance", it's just far more accessible.

Its both actually. If we are talking about strictly gearing.