Rogue's SnD can become a passive

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I’d much rather they didn’t prune it again dumbing down the specs to just be dot then damaging finisher is laaaaame.

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People act like that whoever wants to have SnD removed just wants to spam SS and then Eviscerate, but theres a difference between not wanting boring abilities and not wanting a lot of abilities. If they replaced SnD with something that was actually thought provoking I think no one would care. Theres no skill or depth to SnD and it is not fun to use so might as well replace it with something itneresting.

This thread is wack because its full of people who say they like SnD just to be contrarian.

If you go though the last few SnD threads there are plenty of people who say they dislike it because it takes away from them hitting eviscerate or that it makes there eviscerate do less damage as the damage gets balanced some where else. Plenty of people just want to spam.

[Bonkbonk100]

people yell "you pruned all the abilities, you made the game braindead"

they add stuff back "thats not the stuff we want back. pressing the button is braindead"

/shrug. i wouldnt listen to players either if i were blizz.

This is like the weakest argument to exist on MMO champion. Please find a post on the WoW forums or MMO-champion where someone, anybody, specifically asks for SnD to return in its current form as we know it now. You might find one or two insane and derenged individuals, but no more than that, and these people do not represent the majority of the community (or people as you call them)

[Celfydd]

After playing Rogue quite a bit on beta only Subt feels good because you never actually have to hit SnD. I took it off my bars even.

Nobody is forcing you to do more damage if you don't want to.

[Zyky]

Wouldn't it be more braindead and thus more boring if you had to press less buttons? I don't get it.

More buttons =/= more enjoyable. If you throw in abilities for no reason a class then feels clunky and SnD feels clunky, like Phoenix Flames for Fire Mage.

[Saltysquidoon]

Ah, the classical witless meme answer. You think you can actually improve SnD by pointing at different things and say "but they do something entirely different better!"

Considering your penchant for one line sarcastic zingers, inability to actually contribute to this thread, and seeming obsession with wit your signature grows more ironic with each passing post.

The point about huton, is that if another company can do SnD better why can't blizzard? Why should people just shut up and be happy with the quickest laziest implementation of the skill? Hell Blizzard can and does do it better with Combat and Snd's interaction with RtB.

[ymirsson]

Considering your penchant for one line sarcastic zingers, inability to actually contribute to this thread, and seeming obsession with wit your signature grows more ironic with each passing post.

The point about huton, is that if another company can do SnD better why can't blizzard? Why should people just shut up and be happy with the quickest laziest implementation of the skill? Hell Blizzard can and does do it better with Combat and Snd's interaction with RtB.

Im not saying to be content, but simply pointing else where and crying "but they do cool shit" is as constructive as my wit. which i am glad that you have noticed.

[Beastiel]

I stand by my position that until someone can justify why Huton is better integrated into NIN on every conceivable level then SnD is to either post legion muti or sub (honestly it's fine for combat, especially given it interacts with RtB) than blizzard is just being lazy and anyone who supports this is simply an AULD GUD NU BAD nostalgia shitposter.

well to be fair final fantasy actually builds upon specs each expansion. Blizzard destroys specs and starts from scratch every expansion.

it's ironic this was supposed to be the great unpruning. Because every single melee spec just feels like: Builder #1, Builder #2(with a 10ish second cooldown), spender.

[Nubpwn]

Unpopular opinion: Maintenance buffs are fun, I actually enjoy SnD as one of my favorite finishers. This is a video game, there is practically nothing different from pressing one key over another. You do more damage just like any other button press.

But that isn't really my issue. I haven't enjoyed Outlaw rogue even once yet. Blizzard "fixing" the class image ruined the actual class, nothing was really wrong with Combat in MoP. Hell, even go back to Wrath, what should have changed since then? Nothing really needed to change. Rogue went so long without any major changes because they didn't need any and when we got major changes, it ruined everything. Furthermore, the addition of Demon Hunters hurt rogues dramatically too and I wonder if that was an intentional reason. Playing Havoc DH was/is leaps and bounds better than Outlaw rogue as if they gimped rogues out of fear no one would play DH.

Now I have a different main and only play combat rogue on classic and it is everything I remember that combat should be.

[ldev]

Who wouldn't want to attack 50% faster? People are yelling about Bloodlust like a madman if you forget to press it.

Uhhh, Bloodlust gives haste - faster gcds, faster energy regen, faster cooldowns, changes how you play. This shit just does nothing. They should replace this with Super Evis that does way more damage and has 45 seconds - a finisher you press as much as SnD, but is actually cool and fun.

[tylenol]

I’d much rather they didn’t prune it again dumbing down the specs to just be dot then damaging finisher is laaaaame.

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If you go though the last few SnD threads there are plenty of people who say they dislike it because it takes away from them hitting eviscerate or that it makes there eviscerate do less damage as the damage gets balanced some where else. Plenty of people just want to spam.

Dumbing down? it's literally a button you hit like once every 30 seconds, not much skill required there

[ldev]

I'm not sure if you think that's some kind of gotcha but yes I obviously agree that over 50% of your damage being completely out of your control is stupid and unfun.

I'm not sure what the point of bringing up the base attack speed is. If your base attack speed is super slow, that still wouldn't make it feel good. The relative speeds of buffed and unbuffed are irrelevant. It's up 100% of the time. The spell doesn't feel good because it's always up. Instead of making you feel super strong, it brings you back to parity.

Nailed it.

Let's say character is in neutral power, like most classes are. Hitting eviscerate makes you go into positive power - you just did a lot of damage. Now with SnD, your character feels like it starts with negative power, and you have to press this to get to neutral power.

That's just weak.

Wings for pala is also similar to SnD in that it increases damage. But since it has a cooldown, and lasts short duration, pressing Wings feels like you move from neutral power to positive power, doesn't feel like without wings paladins are at a negative power.

Yeah, SnD is such a vanilla levels of crap design.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Dumbing down? it's literally a button you hit like once every 30 seconds, not much skill required there

and there's even less skill in just spamming damaging finishers while keeping a dot up.

[Schmilblick]

and there's even less skill in just spamming damaging finishers while keeping a dot up.

Looks like you talking just to talk.

[RobertoCarlos]

Nobody is forcing you to do more damage if you don't want to.

Lol. Using the classic Pro flier argument when talking about dps. Classy.

Another day at mmo champ and another slice n dice thread. Makes me worried for rogue that is all you lot can talk about for the new expansion. Can't be much interesting things going on with the class

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Looks like you talking just to talk.

or you know responding to some one who quoted me, odd how forums work isn't it?

[Gotural]

S&D is f***ing amazing.

It lets you auto-attack faster, which is equite exactly what a Rogue should be about.
Such a buff on a class like DH or Warrior would be strange, but on a Rogue it's neat.

To the guys saying it's only a maintenance buff that you press every 30 secs then forget: basically every dots in the game are like that. I mean objectively speaking, S&D is just the buff version of Rupture, you apply it to yourself instead of debuff enemies. I mean try to play an Affliction Warlock, you basically only press "mainteanance debuffs that you press then forget for 20 secs".

Also as others pointed out, it synergizes with the class in some ways, bringing it some flavor. Thanks to poisons or Shadow Technique. It's also neat to have something to use while stealthed and to be able to snipe it with MfD.

Finally, a big LOL to the one who said that the specs were "obviously not designed with S&D in mind". I mean come on dude, in Cataclysm Sub Rogues had to maintain Rupture, S&D and Recuperate in PvE (Energetic Recovery was attached to Recuperate, not S&D) and had a far lower uptime on Shadow Dance (1min CD, no cooldown refund on finishers) which means it had access to Ambush less frequently, which means that it generated less combo points than now. It didn't have Shadow Technique but was equal in this aspect with Energetic Recovery + Honor Among Thieves. It also didn't have Master of Shadows or Symbol of Death for the energy regeneration.

All of that means that the spec had fewer ressources to spend while needing to refresh not 2 but 3 finishers, and the spec was absolutely amazing. The world first Spine of Deathwing even had 5 Sub Rogues! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZHeTNr7xzM

You arguably have absolutely nothing objective to say about S&D, these are just your opinions. If you hate the spell, pick another class.

[Makorus]

and there's even less skill in just spamming damaging finishers while keeping a dot up.

I mean, SND is literally just "keeping a dot up".

[omeomorfismo]

SnD is perfectly fine as it is, its essentially a DoT finisher so it does do dmg over its duration instead of instant, its not as if any spec is completely engaging to play anyway but just creating things to be passive makes it even less interesting.

the problem is that s&d is functionally identical to rupture, even its "being a buff" property is meaningless because it buff aa, that have the same problem of rupture in being ST.

at least garrote is different because it isnt a finisher...
and deadly poison has interaction with envenom.
rupture and s&d are the fucking same thing

[Eazy]

SnD is a bad ability.

Not fun.

[Twdft]

rupture and s&d are the fucking same thing

Not at the moment, no.

You get 7 energy for every tick of rupture. Having rupture let alone multiple ruptures up actually changes gameplay because you have more energy to push more buttons. SnD for Assa currently does not alter gameplay in any way that would be recognizable without looking at a damage meter. It's just attack speed and not haste.

We will have to level to 56 for SnD rank 2 which will give us +10% energy reg. Only then does SnD do anything palpable.