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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    You consistently tell me that PvP sucks, that I am wrong to care about a game that I love, that I should leave. Ymirrsson states openly that he is "extremely biased against PvP players". I call out the selfishness of people who ONLY care about a narrow slice of PvE, and according to you this makes me hateful.

    If SnD is so "trivial" then you should all stop throwing tantrums about it. But you won't. Guess it's not so trivial after all, huh?
    I think you confuse me with someone else. I don’t say that PvP sucks.

    It’s not trivial in the sense that it’s annoying. But it’s trivial in the way that it doesn’t give any meaningful choices in retail like it did in vanilla. You don’t play retail so you don’t know how the game currently is designed. I’m really not sure why you feel the need to annoy other people. It’s not their fault that Blizzard have changed the game. You should be mad at Blizzard.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I think you confuse me with someone else. I don’t say that PvP sucks.

    It’s not trivial in the sense that it’s annoying. But it’s trivial in the way that it doesn’t give any meaningful choices in retail like it did in vanilla. You don’t play retail so you don’t know how the game currently is designed. I’m really not sure why you feel the need to annoy other people. It’s not their fault that Blizzard have changed the game. You should be mad at Blizzard.
    So when you are out questing, and you are fighting a mob that you can destroy in under 10 seconds, and then you fight an elite that takes considerably longer and may require you to kite and pool, in both cases you'll just throw up 5cp SnD and not worry about wasting any? Sounds like an L2P category of problem. As for me personally, I enjoy the opportunities for micromanagement and varying things up for different situations.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  3. #83
    I have a general question for people who are like "but more buttons = more complexity (which is wrong but w/e)". Wouldn't that mean that a more complex and interesting button would equal even more complexity and thus be even better? Like say king's bane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotural View Post
    Finally, a big LOL to the one who said that the specs were "obviously not designed with S&D in mind". I mean come on dude, in Cataclysm Sub Rogues had to maintain Rupture, S&D and Recuperate in PvE (Energetic Recovery was attached to Recuperate, not S&D) and had a far lower uptime on Shadow Dance (1min CD, no cooldown refund on finishers) which means it had access to Ambush less frequently, which means that it generated less combo points than now. It didn't have Shadow Technique but was equal in this aspect with Energetic Recovery + Honor Among Thieves. It also didn't have Master of Shadows or Symbol of Death for the energy regeneration.
    Ironic you bring up cata which was the expansion muti specifically stopped having to maintain SnD (which continued to WoD), Further, muti was redesigned in legion to function without SnD (with rupture taking its role), like that's just an objective fact I'm not sure why you would even bother arguing that.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    So when you are out questing, and you are fighting a mob that you can destroy in under 10 seconds, and then you fight an elite that takes considerably longer and may require you to kite and pool, in both cases you'll just throw up 5cp SnD and not worry about wasting any? Sounds like an L2P category of problem. As for me personally, I enjoy the opportunities for micromanagement and varying things up for different situations.
    This is relevant in vanilla but not retail. Please understand. You don’t play retail and you keep applying vanilla logic to it. Questing in retail is completely irrelevant. Mobs dies in 2 secs and you still have plenty of energy and plenty of combo points so there are no interesting choice around SnD like there was in Vanilla. I think you know this but you’re just trying to be in the way for some reason.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This is relevant in vanilla but not retail. Please understand. You don’t play retail and you keep applying vanilla logic to it. Questing in retail is completely irrelevant. Mobs dies in 2 secs and you still have plenty of energy and plenty of combo points so there are no interesting choice around SnD like there was in Vanilla. I think you know this but you’re just trying to be in the way for some reason.
    No, every mob will not die in 2 seconds while you are in starter gear. That is ridiculous.

    Even if the difference in output due to proper resource management is small, I'm happy to optimize things even for a ~1% or smaller improvement. Optimizing and proper timing give my brain the feel good chemicals. I enjoy it quite a bit.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    No, every mob will not die in 2 seconds while you are in starter gear. That is ridiculous.

    Even if the difference in output due to proper resource management is small, I'm happy to optimize things even for a ~1% or smaller improvement. Optimizing and proper timing give my brain the feel good chemicals. I enjoy it quite a bit.
    No it’s not ridiculous. Open world mobs die very very fast.

    It’s very easy to keep 100% SnD uptime in all relevant PvE content. There is no interesting choice around SnD in retail wow. It’s not vanilla. I don’t know how many times I can repeat it for someone who don’t even play the game.

    I seriously don’t understand why you hate us so much. Why cant you just enjoy Classic and TBC and let the rest of us enjoy retail. You will probably never play retail again because it’s not only the Rogue that has changed, it’s the entire game.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It’s very easy to keep 100% SnD uptime in all relevant PvE content. There is no interesting choice around SnD in retail wow. It’s not vanilla. I don’t know how many times I can repeat it for someone who don’t even play the game.

    I seriously don’t understand why you hate us so much. Why cant you just enjoy Classic and TBC and let the rest of us enjoy retail. You will probably never play retail again because it’s not only the Rogue that has changed, it’s the entire game.
    So do mobs out in the world die in "2 seconds" or was that a bold faced lie?

    Perhaps now you are backtracking to "well, fighting mobs out in the world isn't RELEVANT content" as if you are the sole arbiter of relevance. Do you think the game designers share your view that questing isn't "relevant" and mythic PvE endgame is the only thing that matters?
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    So do mobs out in the world die in "2 seconds" or was that a bold faced lie?

    Perhaps now you are backtracking to "well, fighting mobs out in the world isn't RELEVANT content" as if you are the sole arbiter of relevance.
    No it was not. Mobs in open world content dies extremely fast. And you chain pull mobs because you don’t have to worry about eating food like you did in vanilla. SnD usage doesn’t give you any meaningful choices in retail. It did in vanilla.

    Really. What is your problem? Why cant you just accept that WoW is a different game now? Why do you keep blaming us for what Blizzard have done? We are just trying to enjoy the game. Why are you being so hateful and condescending toward us? Why do you keep making in accurate statements about a game you don’t play anymore? I just don’t get your motivation.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No it was not. Mobs in open world content dies extremely fast. And you chain pull mobs because you don’t have to worry about eating food like you did in vanilla. SnD usage doesn’t give you any meaningful choices in retail. It did in vanilla.

    Really. What is your problem? Why cant you just accept that WoW is a different game now? Why do you keep blaming us for what Blizzard have done? We are just trying to enjoy the game. Why are you being so hateful and condescending toward us? Why do you keep making in accurate statements about a game you don’t play anymore? I just don’t get your motivation.
    You keep insisting that I don't play the game anymore, and I don't get why. Yes, it's true that I am not playing BFA currently, and I'm quite proud of that fact. But my experience in Shadowlands beta is that mobs are not dying "in 2 seconds". Why do you insist on making such a fool of yourself?
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No it was not. Mobs in open world content dies extremely fast. And you chain pull mobs because you don’t have to worry about eating food like you did in vanilla. SnD usage doesn’t give you any meaningful choices in retail. It did in vanilla.

    Really. What is your problem? Why cant you just accept that WoW is a different game now? Why do you keep blaming us for what Blizzard have done? We are just trying to enjoy the game. Why are you being so hateful and condescending toward us? Why do you keep making in accurate statements about a game you don’t play anymore? I just don’t get your motivation.
    Honestly dude just let it go. His argument boils down to 1000 different ways to say "aulde gud nu bad" and "but muh pvp edge case", if he wants to spam SS in classic and daydream about WoD sub let him go. The only people who get hurt are the ones who get drawn into Homeric poem length forum debates about either topic.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    You keep insisting that I don't play the game anymore, and I don't get why. Yes, it's true that I am not playing BFA currently, and I'm quite proud of that fact. But my experience in Shadowlands beta is that mobs are not dying "in 2 seconds". Why do you insist on making such a fool of yourself?
    Because the point is still that leveling and questing is a much less impactful part of the game now than it was in vanilla. And no matter what you do you will kill mobs and survive. Playing well is completely irrelevant for open world content. SnD was relevant in vanilla but it’s not relevant in retail.

    The sad thing is that even if they changed Rogue back to the pre-legion design you would still not play retail wow because the game has changed too much. What you describe and what you seek is not in retail WoW anymore. It’s the entire game that has changed. So instead of trying to make the game experience worse for the rest of us you should just move on. Really. There is no reason to waste your life on a game you fundamentally don’t like.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to do more damage if you don't want to.
    I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic, purposefully obtuse or just stupid.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Honestly dude just let it go. His argument boils down to 1000 different ways to say "aulde gud nu bad" and "but muh pvp edge case", if he wants to spam SS in classic and daydream about WoD sub let him go. The only people who get hurt are the ones who get drawn into Homeric poem length forum debates about either topic.
    I could say the same to you all but here you are with YET ANOTHER thread about SnD, which is simultaneously "trivial" and also the greatest affront to game design in the history of WoW. Heh heh heh....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Because the point is still that leveling and questing is a much less impactful part of the game now than it was in vanilla. And no matter what you do you will kill mobs and survive. Playing well is completely irrelevant for open world content. SnD was relevant in vanilla but it’s not relevant in retail.

    The sad thing is that even if they changed Rogue back to the pre-legion design you would still not play retail wow because the game has changed too much. What you describe and what you seek is not in retail WoW anymore. It’s the entire game that has changed. So instead of trying to make the game experience worse for the rest of us you should just move on. Really. There is no reason to waste your life on a game you fundamentally don’t like.
    LOL I would 100% play retail WoW again in a heartbeat if they reverted the Rogue class to pre-Legion design. God, what an incredible thing that would be! That's the dream, right there.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    You're entirely missing the point they are making. "3k" is obviously just a placeholder, it doesn't matter to the argument at all. The point is whether there is more depth to have some damage delayed over a period of time or for it to happen immediately. Personally I think it's great that we have both finisher options. I think it's incredibly, remarkably boring that the PvE crowd wants all damage to be immediate and up front with no ramp up time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is your brain on extreme PvE-biased tunnel vision.

    Rupture breaks enemies out of Stealth, SnD doesn't. Rupture is a bleed and bypasses armor, SnD damage is affected by armor and therefore has different value vs. different targets. Rupture continues dealing damage when you are running away to restealth, or when you are sitting in roots or polymorph or other CC (or when the boss flies up in the air, there's one for you PvE folks). SnD requires continuous uptime on the target to get maximum value.

    So many of the arguments you guys keep advancing are just so bad. Do you even play the game or do you just look at spreadsheets all day?
    i made some spreadsheets back in legion (not too much to be fair, only assa APL optimization), and yes i only see PVE, so?
    to pve assa s&d doesnt do anything that rupture do. put it as a pvp talent if they still exist. to pve, it adds nothing, in a way even worse than dispatch/ambush (wooo so much skilz to write an aura+shiftmacro on mut)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Not at the moment, no.

    You get 7 energy for every tick of rupture. Having rupture let alone multiple ruptures up actually changes gameplay because you have more energy to push more buttons. SnD for Assa currently does not alter gameplay in any way that would be recognizable without looking at a damage meter. It's just attack speed and not haste.

    We will have to level to 56 for SnD rank 2 which will give us +10% energy reg. Only then does SnD do anything palpable.
    oh yes sorry, then s&d is a strictly worse rupture. but my argument remain the same

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    i made some spreadsheets back in legion (not too much to be fair, only assa APL optimization), and yes i only see PVE, so?
    to pve assa s&d doesnt do anything that rupture do. put it as a pvp talent if they still exist. to pve, it adds nothing, in a way even worse than dispatch/ambush (wooo so much skilz to write an aura+shiftmacro on mut)

    - - - Updated - - -



    oh yes sorry, then s&d is a strictly worse rupture. but my argument remain the same
    Arguing that "SnD and rupture are the same because I only play a tiny little part of the game and my spreadsheet says the damage they deal is similar even though the way they deal damage is of course entirely different" is pretty hilarious. Thanks for the good laugh.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-11-16 at 01:02 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  16. #96
    Banned Ladey Gags's Avatar
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    Idk what’s with the hate for SND. I love popping it and seeing my auto attacks go super fast. I don’t understand the argument that it’s a passive that does nothing. It has visual AND audio feedback with both the execution of the skill and seeing your auto attacks in super Saiyan mode and hearing them hit every 0.00005 seconds. It feels freaking awesome and extremely ROGUEY to me.
    Last edited by Ladey Gags; 2020-11-16 at 01:19 AM.

  17. #97
    SnD, to me, will always be quintessentially Rogue. I personally am of the opinion that if SnD doesn’t fit the mould, you should change the mould.

    I personally also like its currently implemented form. I get that it’s not, but it could have been, a new Finisher with fireworks and amaze-gasm satisfaction to use. That adding it now feels worse to some of you than if we had had it continuously. I am personally fine with that. I am okay with if you feel like it’s currently underwhelming in certain scenarios. This is a finisher that should have a higher priority than Rupture in single-target, and lower in multi-target.

    You might take it at face value and bemoan it its perceived lack of depths. And I say, so what? If they had added the most amazing finisher in your eyes, it would have devalued whatever else you had. I don’t see the problem; something is going to be the most boring to people, since it’s a moving scale. It interacts with a decent sub-set of the class abilities, and it rewards having a high uptime on the target enemy.

    I don’t find it boring at all, and am honestly a bit disappointed at all the haters. Do note that me not finding it boring is not the same as me finding it to be the most orgasmic thrill either. And not everything needs to be.

    White damage matters again, and it should. It shouldn’t be the only source, or even a majority of our damage by any means - but I would love it if it’s the highest share of all the minorities.

    I feel like SnD should be part of the Rogue arsenal, and while I do think it could do with even a touch more interaction in future expansions, it interacts fine now.

    (I play Sub, btw. And Affliction. Love me some maintenance de/buffs. No matter if these specs sim the lowest or highest.)
    Last edited by BicycleMafioso; 2020-11-16 at 02:01 AM. Reason: punctuation didn’t make sense at some points

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    Idk what’s with the hate for SND. I love popping it and seeing my auto attacks go super fast. I don’t understand the argument that it’s a passive that does nothing. It has visual AND audio feedback with both the execution of the skill and seeing your auto attacks in super Saiyan mode and hearing them hit every 0.00005 seconds. It feels freaking awesome and extremely ROGUEY to me.
    YUP, these people saying it doesn't do anything or "you can't feel it" are utterly delusional. Like how did they not notice how slow our autos are without it? The loss of energetic recovery also. It just feels terrible to play without it, and so satisfying to put it up and hear those faster autos.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrisGOAT View Post
    SnD, to me, will always be quintessentially Rogue. I personally am of the opinion that if SnD doesn’t fit the mould, you should change the mould.
    YUP!!! Preach it. This is exactly the point. One of many, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrisGOAT View Post
    I don’t find it boring at all, and am honestly a bit disappointed at all the haters. Do note that me not finding it boring is not the same as me finding it to be the most orgasmic thrill either. And not everything needs to be.
    It's really a great disappointment how little appreciation many Rogue players have for their class these days. Imagine playing this class, that has so much awesome history to it, that was so well regarded for so many years, and just approaching it as a dps rotation simulator / spreadsheet. Such a disappointment.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-11-16 at 02:08 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkbonk100 View Post
    This is like the weakest argument to exist on MMO champion. Please find a post on the WoW forums or MMO-champion where someone, anybody, specifically asks for SnD to return in its current form as we know it now. You might find one or two insane and derenged individuals, but no more than that, and these people do not represent the majority of the community (or people as you call them)
    But you think you do? Wake up. The replies here are close to 50/50 for and against SnD, and yet this thread itself represents less than one tenth of one percent of the WoW community. Even the people this website hosts represent a tiny fraction of the total amount of players subscribed to WoW. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but don't act like you speak for the majority. You're just one guy.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    rupture and s&d are the fucking same thing
    Rupture deals damage to your target when you are not in melee range of it. S&D does not cause you to do damage to your target when you are not in melee range of it.

    Rupture deals bleed damage which is not reduced by armor. White attacks buffed by S&D are physical damage and are reduced by armor.

    The entire duration of Rupture can only be applied to one target. During S&D you can freely switch targets and damage different ones.

    They don't resemble one another in any meaningful way.

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