Why is N'Zoth even a boss if melee exist in the game?

[Evolixe]

Whats even more ironic is that projections indicate that not only have ranged got it easy with never having to worry about being forced out of range, they also do more damage regardless if the melee could maintain a 100% uptime. What a joke honestly

[Kalisandra]

just make something like that so it's always possible to have 6-8 melee before the mechanics actively punish it. or you know, just don't make mechanics that by their nature limit the melee spots in the first place (and there's a difference between melee unfriendly mechanics, and melee spot limiting mechanics)

The way I see it, there are mechanics that require a certain number of melee or ranged. These almost always require that you have a certain number of ranged (to stop the crud landing in melee or forcing healers to move too often or to perform certain mechanics). Fights with these also tend to be 'easy' for the group not affected, because they get to just tunnel the boss, hence all those fights where the melee complains because of limited slots, and the ranged complain because the melee 'have it easy'.

Then there are the fights that are simply unfriendly to a certain type of DPS because of a mechanics that hoses them. These almost always hammer melee the hardest, because most of them involve time off target. There have been some that wreck ranged, usually silence effects, though many of these are actually pacify effects and thus affect everyone. A good many of these effects, even when they do affect ranged, simply don't apply to BM hunters because they can do everything on the move (and unless their pet gets messed up even if they stop hitting buttons their pet still pours out damage).

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You realize that casters are not standing and shooting fireballs all the time? EVERY dodge mechanic for melee is 0 impact. Literally 0. For a caster you can't cast. So yeah, then we should make that melee can't dps while moving. Which is stupid and not fun. Ton of boss models are so big that even spread mechanics can be done and melee still dps the boss while their swing point looks like 20 yards away from even touching the boss skin.

And plenty more are so damned small that you're all piled up under the boss' arse, and you can't see anything because of boss butt, spell effects, and everyone's models all piled up. Note that a large boss hit box also benefits ranged as it lets them get further away as well.

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I would play a ranged dps in a heartbeat if I could cast while moving, hell Id even take a 30% penalty to movement speed or something TSW did this and it was amazing. I see no reason why you cant move and cast.

Because apparently when Elementals could cast Lightning Bolts on the run it was fun, and fun gets nerfed.

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Back in Cata and earlier expansions, this used to really mess with hunters, because they'd have to switch to melee weapons in melee range and they did pretty awful melee damage.

Fun fact - in vanilla Hunter melee DPS was better than Ret DPS. Same at low levels in BC. Assuming equivalent gear quality of course.

[oplawlz]

Fun fact - in vanilla Hunter melee DPS was better than Ret DPS. Same at low levels in BC. Assuming equivalent gear quality of course.

Yeah with the appropriate gear/spec you could pump out surprising numbers melee. Once we got hyjal on farm one of our hunters did it for fun and was surprisingly successful. Not top tier by any means, but better than bottom tier anyway.

OT there isn't really an answer for this beyond design encounters finding more ways to take ranged players out of the fight, and SL has a lot of "run here with this debuff" mechanics in the first raid. Problem is it's hard to focus those on only ranged, and it starts to feel more than a little contrived after a while. Kinda like that horrible "poof, you're all stunned while I run away" thing blizzard got so fond of.

[Relapses]

Because apparently when Elementals could cast Lightning Bolts on the run it was fun, and fun gets nerfed.

Dude. Ele's rotation (at the time) was a bunch of instant casts and one cast you could do while moving. The one rotational ability that couldn't be cast on the move was Chain Lightning and even then you could use Spiritwalker's Grace once every two minutes to cast that on the move for 15 seconds. If you don't think a ranged class that can do literally everything a melee can without any penality isn't maybe a little bit too overpowered, congratulations... you're the reason terrible surface level rebukes of melee "getting fucked" like the OP's exist.

[vsb]

They are simply out of range a lot of the time while the ranged are not. Method had the same criticism.

It is compensated by the fact that melee barely execute any mechanics while ranged are doing it all.

[Charge me Doctor]

Because apparently when Elementals could cast Lightning Bolts on the run it was fun, and fun gets nerfed.

It's the same issue as with BM hunters right now, with gameplay like this they are basically ranged melee, there shouldn't be a spec that works like that.

And god damn, this whole conversation is hilarious, if you don't like playing melee, because you have to have downtime for a couple of seconds to do boss mechanics, you shouldn't be raiding at all. Pretending like ranged characters don't have to do mechanics is also ridiculous. Seriously, go and play a shadow priest and you'll love playing melee and barely give any fucks about what's going on in the raid.

[deenman]

I was raiding only in TBC but I remember that melees always were a 'special task force', usually 5 melees per raid to handle the specific boss mechanic. I always liked playing melee DPS more than ranged because there was a lot going on compared to ranged where you just spam your rotation and move from time to time. But my memories may be distorted by nostalgia and the fact that it was like 10 years ago or something

more like 14 years ago time sure flies,i still have vivid memories of tbc and wrath,ill defend my opinion that wrath was the worst expansion ever,but it still didnt change the fact that it was the time i had the most fun in wow

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It's the same issue as with BM hunters right now, with gameplay like this they are basically ranged melee, there shouldn't be a spec that works like that

Bm has the hastle of the pet,i literaly quit it simply because it got annoying with resumonig it cause it gets stuck on like half the bosses somehow,also its not like it really shines as a dps every tier,its just that it feels good to be 100% mobile

[Charge me Doctor]

It is compensated by the fact that melee barely execute any mechanics while ranged are doing it all.

The excuse of "we can't do mechanics, we won't be able to DPS!" is a very strong excuse. Reminds me of times when i was filling in my friends raden HC and RL was adamant that melee shouldn't have to switch to spheres, because they'll lose DPS... in a melee-heavy raid. Even after three wipes due to ranged players not dishing out enough damage to pop them. Some people just can't wrap their head around the idea that players in a raid shouldn't be tunnel visioning the boss, regardless of their spec and role.

[Relapses]

more like 14 years ago time sure flies,i still have vivid memories of tbc and wrath,ill defend my opinion that wrath was the worst expansion ever,but it still didnt change the fact that it was the time i had the most fun in wow

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Bm has the hastle of the pet,i literaly quit it simply because it got annoying with resumonig it cause it gets stuck on like half the bosses somehow,also its not like it really shines as a dps every tier,its just that it feels good to be 100% mobile

BM was never an exceptionally potent DPS spec in raiding because of the pet mechanics. It exceled in the same content that melee does: M+. It looks like a lot of the baked in potency of the spec is being curtailed in early SL due to stat scaling but we'll likely see it become an S-tier DPS for things like MDI and super high keys come 9.3. Ironically, current BM occupies the same space Ele occupied back in MoP in Challenge Modes...mostly because of the insane mobility of the spec. What a strange coincidence.......

[Charge me Doctor]

Bm has the hastle of the pet,i literaly quit it simply because it got annoying with resumonig it cause it gets stuck on like half the bosses somehow,also its not like it really shines as a dps every tier,its just that it feels good to be 100% mobile

It certainly feels good, but you have to admit that a class that deals same damage as everyone else, doesn't have neither ranged class drawbacks or melee class drawbacks is broken by its design. It's like wotlk paladins healing with one hand - set fast and slow heal to mousewheel up and down and hold both buttons to move.

[deenman]

It certainly feels good, but you have to admit that a class that deals same damage as everyone else, doesn't have neither ranged class drawbacks or melee class drawbacks is broken by its design. It's like wotlk paladins healing with one hand - set fast and slow heal to mousewheel up and down and hold both buttons to move.

Yeah i agree,the pet alone should be their ''mobile dps''

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BM was never an exceptionally potent DPS spec in raiding because of the pet mechanics. It exceled in the same content that melee does: M+. It looks like a lot of the baked in potency of the spec is being curtailed in early SL due to stat scaling but we'll likely see it become an S-tier DPS for things like MDI and super high keys come 9.3. Ironically, current BM occupies the same space Ele occupied back in MoP in Challenge Modes...mostly because of the insane mobility of the spec. What a strange coincidence.......

Heh...shaman was the class i swaped to in mop,im always sad about all the stuff striped and changed....from all specs...blizz has this weird fetish of taking away from shamans,from all specs of shaman,even my resto lost sooooo much,i could post a wall of text about them all but i dont want to get my keyboard wet with the tears

[Relapses]

Yeah i agree,the pet alone should be their ''mobile dps''

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Heh...shaman was the class i swaped to in mop,im always sad about all the stuff striped and changed....from all specs...blizz has this weird fetish of taking away from shamans,from all specs of shaman,even my resto lost sooooo much,i could post a wall of text about them all but i dont want to get my keyboard wet with the tears

I started MoP as Ele then ended up going Shadow til SoO. Progressed in SoO til Garry as Shadow before switching to Mage. Did that for awhile and eventually ended up playing a stupidly broken Warlock by the end of SoO. MoP was an interesting time for the game. The funny thing is that I wasn't really switching because one was particularly less powerful than the other...they were all extremely powerful (especially compared to melee DPS). They were just different levels of broken and Warlock ended up being the most broken. Every spec had ways to counteract mobility concerns and even though playstyles differed, each spec kind of felt the same in how you handled mechanics. I don't like all the things Blizzard has done since then but as somebody who played every ranged caster DPS back then I actually appreciate some of the changes they made to lessen the homogenization of specs. It's like that dude from The Incredibles said... "If everybody's super then nobody's super." And that definitely felt like the direction the game was taking back then.

[deenman]

I started MoP as Ele then ended up going Shadow til SoO. Progressed in SoO til Garry as Shadow before switching to Mage. Did that for awhile and eventually ended up playing a stupidly broken Warlock by the end of SoO. MoP was an interesting time for the game. The funny thing is that I wasn't really switching because one was particularly less powerful than the other...they were all extremely power (especially compared to melee DPS). They were just different levels of broken and Warlock ended up being the most broken. Every spec had ways to counteract mobility concerns and even though playstyles differed, each spec kind of felt the same in how you handled mechanics. I don't like all the things Blizzard has done since then but as somebody who played every ranged caster DPS back then I actually appreciate some of the changes they made to lessen the homogenization of specs. It's like that dude from The Incredibles said... "If everybody's super then nobody's super." And that definitely felt like the direction the game was taking back then.

In a competitive mmo everything should be ''super'',the differences and their individual feeling of being special should come from other stuff like the rotation differences,mecanics gameplay etc...for example an arcane spaming mage should do the same dps as a demonolgy warlock that flings his imps at stuff,classes/specs should feel different and unique but be competitive,all should have good mobility dps and burst dps,just have it feel/look/play differently,it would fix the class stacking

[Relapses]

In a competitive mmo everything should be ''super'',the differences and their individual feeling of being special should come from other stuff like the rotation differences,mecanics gameplay etc...for example an arcane spaming mage should do the same dps as a demonolgy warlock that flings his imps at stuff,classes/specs should feel different and unique but be competitive,all should have good mobility dps and burst dps,just have it feel/look/play differently,it would fix the class stacking

I think that's the ultimate goal but the problem is that you end up with a spectrum where on one end is class utility and uniqueness and on the other is homogenization. Every player will land somewhere differently on this spectrum in their preferences and it's up to Blizzard to dictate how they feel things should play out. In MoP they seemed to favor homogenization then they did a near full 180 in WoD. Since then they've moved gradually towards the center of the spectrum. From a purely pragmatic standpoint this seems to be the play that isolates the least amount of players but it's doubtful they'll ever strike a legitimate balance where all players of all specs are happy. SL seems to have an emphasis on alts so it's possible Blizzard is giving up on moving the game further into homogenization and is telling its players (indirectly) to simply reroll instead of hope against hope their preferred class has its time in the sun. /shrug

[psyquest]

They are simply out of range a lot of the time while the ranged are not. Method had the same criticism.

I have bad news for you.

Keep an eye on parses in the first week of raiding at shadowlands and keep and eye on melee participation on high keys.

It will be clear as night and I feel sorry for players playing melee characters.

[deenman]

I think that's the ultimate goal but the problem is that you end up with a spectrum where on one end is class utility and uniqueness and on the other is homogenization. Every player will land somewhere differently on this spectrum in their preferences and it's up to Blizzard to dictate how they feel things should play out. In MoP they seemed to favor homogenization then they did a near full 180 in WoD. Since then they've moved gradually towards the center of the spectrum. From a purely pragmatic standpoint this seems to be the play that isolates the least amount of players but it's doubtful they'll ever strike a legitimate balance where all players of all specs are happy. SL seems to have an emphasis on alts so it's possible Blizzard is giving up on moving the game further into homogenization and is telling its players (indirectly) to simply reroll instead of hope against hope their preferred class has its time in the sun. /shrug

Well...look at it this way,mop managed to become a top 2-3 expansion for most people,that after by FAR the worst expansion reveals and bad press around it,no expansion has ever started so much on the wrong foot as mop and ended up so good in the end,classes being awsome was part of it

Now look at WOD,posibly?one of if not the most hyped expansion,with an amazing badass introduction,and it...had zero content besides decent lvling and good raiding(as expected of blizz)

And wod didnt even have THAT bad of a class design,bfa takes the cake on that one

[Kalisandra]

It certainly feels good, but you have to admit that a class that deals same damage as everyone else, doesn't have neither ranged class drawbacks or melee class drawbacks is broken by its design. It's like wotlk paladins healing with one hand - set fast and slow heal to mousewheel up and down and hold both buttons to move.

Eh. With enough Haste & Crit (Int after the Illumination nerf) you didn't need Flash, and only needed to cast Holy Light. Your other button was the shield spell once that was introduced. Oh, you probably wanted Holy Shock somewhere in case you had to heal while being forced to move.

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Now look at WOD,posibly?one of if not the most hyped expansion,with an amazing badass introduction,and it...had zero content besides decent lvling and good raiding(as expected of blizz)

And wod didnt even have THAT bad of a class design,bfa takes the cake on that one

I mained Ret and Ele/Resto in WoD (as I have since Cata), and WoD worked out okay for them but Ele was junk to start (no surprises there), and Ret was propped up by tier set bonuses (no surprises there either). While the loss of mobile LB casting was probably necessary for Ele it really hurt, as there was nothing given to make up for it, and Shamans have always been pretty squishy. Gust of Wind in Legion made up for it, but that's gone and Ele's back to being a turret made of glass.

There's something wrong with class balance when one class is more mobile, harder to kill, and does as much or more damage than the rest (mages vs every other caster most of the time).

There's also something wrong when raid designs are such that some melee being vastly more mobile than other melee makes a huge difference because the less mobile melee don't really have anything to counter balance that.

Also, melee being preferred in m+ had as much to do with some melee specs bringing important buffs as it did with melee being better than ranged on a fundamental level. The only fundamental thing was being able to do damage while almost constantly moving, and that's the nature of of content where you're moving through a zone on a timer.

[Jastall]

Eh. With enough Haste & Crit (Int after the Illumination nerf) you didn't need Flash, and only needed to cast Holy Light. Your other button was the shield spell once that was introduced. Oh, you probably wanted Holy Shock somewhere in case you had to heal while being forced to move.

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I mained Ret and Ele/Resto in WoD (as I have since Cata), and WoD worked out okay for them but Ele was junk to start (no surprises there), and Ret was propped up by tier set bonuses (no surprises there either). While the loss of mobile LB casting was probably necessary for Ele it really hurt, as there was nothing given to make up for it, and Shamans have always been pretty squishy. Gust of Wind in Legion made up for it, but that's gone and Ele's back to being a turret made of glass.

There's something wrong with class balance when one class is more mobile, harder to kill, and does as much or more damage than the rest (mages vs every other caster most of the time).

There's also something wrong when raid designs are such that some melee being vastly more mobile than other melee makes a huge difference because the less mobile melee don't really have anything to counter balance that.

Also, melee being preferred in m+ had as much to do with some melee specs bringing important buffs as it did with melee being better than ranged on a fundamental level. The only fundamental thing was being able to do damage while almost constantly moving, and that's the nature of of content where you're moving through a zone on a timer.

If I do have one big criticism of class design it's how utility and mobility seem sprinkled at random with no regards for balance. A Rogue has tons of unique utility (no need to list them all), is extremely mobile, and quite survivable as well. An Enhancement shaman... can cast Lust and self-rez every 30 minutes? Can hard cast mediocre heals? Like, c'mon, give these guys a bone already. A Ret Pally has dogshit mobility even talented into it, and while they have a good utility and defensive suite it's nothing that can rival a Rogue. Mages are highly mobile, hard to lock down and have a good deal of utility on top of usually having a top tier DPS spec, SPriests need to talent into having one mobility skill last I checked and their utility is borderline non-existent outside of stam buff so all they bring is damage.

Some classes like Warrior and Warlock seem well balanced in this regard; the former has mediocre utility but good mobility and two usually competent DPS specs, while the latter is very immobile on paper but less so in practice if they are skilled, and they bring loads of powerful and class-unique utility as well. But I'm still baffled as to why, say, Druids are still the only healer with a Brez. This alone locks them down as the best M+ healers forevermore unless tuning hits them with a massive nerfbat which is hardly a good solution.

[Charge me Doctor]

If I do have one big criticism of class design it's how utility and mobility seem sprinkled at random with no regards for balance. A Rogue has tons of unique utility (no need to list them all), is extremely mobile, and quite survivable as well. An Enhancement shaman... can cast Lust and self-rez every 30 minutes? Can hard cast mediocre heals? Like, c'mon, give these guys a bone already.

Not going to argue that rogues bring too much utility , but with an enhancement shaman you get:

on demand 50% slow (AoE and single target)
a hex
AoE stun
Purge
WF totem
Spirit wolf (not being slowed below 100% allows to cheese some mechanics)
ranged interrupt on very short CD
Tremor
Bloodlust
Mediocre offhealing
Also totally forgot about sprint totem and sundering incap

All classes bring something to the table, obviously there are heavy outliners (like rogues), but you shouldn't handwave all utility different specs bring, because they don't match what a rogue bring

[Pigy2]

You do realize that you're essentially arguing for all encounters to become Baleroc from Firelands again, don't you? :^)

What do you want Blizzard to do? Have a checklist of all raid mechanics and force them to add a commensurate number of fuck you ranged mechanics for every fuck you melee mechanic they add? I'd hate to be an encounter designer under your ideal conditions: Gone would be the days where I could just throw a dragon in a dungeon and have it breathe fire in a 90 degree cone. Nah -- now I've gotta meet our fuck you ranged DPS quotas or else the Melee Raid Mechanics Union will begin drafting harshly worded criticisms directed at my boss. Fuck man, why can't dragons just be dragons?

Personally shitting all over combustion and making it an extraordinarily boring CD as opposed to the very fun one it used to be is what killed fire for me. Then again I think all mage specs have devolved drastically.

*edit* quoted the wrong person for some reason, don't mind me.