SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Syegfryed]

Why are you unable to hold an argument without de-contextualizing a conversation? Why do you pretend equating a fact of nature like saying the sky is blue with a man made ruleset for a game is a serious and not utterly ridiculous argument? Why do you think saying "pandaren" is an argument by itself? Why is it "it's not how it was" all you have?

because its true? the sky blue was just an extrapolation of an analogy, is how the game is made and how it should be, there is no logic or necessaty in changing by now, pandarens is an argument by itself because they show why neutral races are bad

It's like you are utterly unable to see that a race's narrative value can exist beyond their faction, or that it can't advance if present on both factions, and I'm just saddened by your lack of vision. Just because you can't see beyond an "every race has to pick a side as a whole" reductive ass notion does it make it right.

i don't want to see if a race narrative value can exist beyond their faction, i don't want something like that, i want their narrative value to exist tied with the factions, because factions matter, i don't want my game changed just because people don't care about the factions anymore

The sheer fact that your premise of WHY pandaren are a lackluster allied race is... nonexistent and wholly blame their neutrality for it really says all we need to the level of analysis you are bringing to the conversation.

neutrality is bad because they stick like pandaren a null race, with no importance that just chose what color they like more, its bad for the narrative since it try to tell a different kind of conflict that is not good in a warcraft game, again, awful that just even more the meaning of the factions that are by whole different by their traits visions and races

[Vakir]

Honestly, unless where it fucks with themes and story direction, most of this stuff is more funny than it is actively harmful. To whit, nobody gives a flying fuck about the tol'vir retcon these days.

The...who...retcon? What's a tol'der?

It's pretty transparent that A) Blizzard have nixed undead being damned, which we knew since they datamined Kyrian Forsaken like a year ago and B) Sylvanas was hijacked into the Maw. That or the morality is bonkers which I wouldn't put past Blizzard 'Draenor is free' Entertainment.

Said Hijack probably has a lot to do with Frostmourne. It would make sense that anyone that died to a device of the Jailer personally would have their soul driven by that.

...except the internal logic of that is flawed, because it would mean the non-Light intervened half of Uther would be going to the Maw, not to Bastion. So either Blizzard forgot their own rules within the same expansion, or Sylvanas was hijacked literally-just-because.

My head hurts.

[Super Dickmann]

Said Hijack probably has a lot to do with Frostmourne. It would make sense that anyone that died to a device of the Jailer personally would have their soul driven by that.

...except the internal logic of that is flawed, because it would mean the non-Light intervened half of Uther would be going to the Maw, not to Bastion. So either Blizzard forgot their own rules within the same expansion, or Sylvanas was hijacked literally-just-because.

My head hurts.

To be fair, I don't think it's all that complicated once we take the recent retcons into account and we don't even have to bother with Frostmourne at all. The Val'kyr who made contact with Sylvanas are tied to the helm and this is at a time when Bolvar was just adjusting to it, with the new DK story telling us that is when the wearer is at their weakest. If the Jailor is the will in the Helm, then he'd also have outreach towards those Val'kyr and be able to use their psychopomp abilities to put Sylvanas in the Maw for long enough to give her an offer she can't refuse. We know that the Val'kyr can circumvent the Shadowlands system by how Odyn's basically thumbing his nose at it by putting the Vrykul souls in his own custom pocket dimension. No reason why Arthas's wouldn't be able to do the same.

[Vakir]

Yeah, kinda makes you wonder what the point of breaking the veil even is if there's this many workarounds to be directly influenced by the Shadowlands in absence of being present in the mortal realm.

I kinda liked the idea that those killed by Frostmourne and consequently many first-generation Forsaken were forcibly damned because it kind of set up this especial tragedy and really reinforced the soul stealing/warping power of this alien artifact. As it is now, it seems more kind of possible that the more acerbic nature of the undead is their connection to the Maw by virtue of the origins of undeath itself. Those seeing "only darkness" can also be maybe chalked up to them having influence from the Jailer in their final moments, but still ultimately ending up where they were meant to.

Makes me wonder if the removal of the Jailer would "restore" the Forsaken/Sylvanas emotionally to Golden's seeming vision of them. Which makes sense as an arc capstone but is also strikingly bland.

I feel like Alex/Vashj ending up in Maldraxxus does actually make sense, just not directly. They just needed a very basic mention of her going to Revendreth for some amount of non-perceivable time, for example, to get burned for a bit. :/ Honestly, Revendreth makes sense as a stop for villainous characters, going straight to the Maw pretty much never appears fair, so I'm glad that the in-game lore seems to contradict that the Arbiter would ever consider it. Who would even be worthy of that beyond existential threats that don't go to the Shadowlands anyway?

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, kinda makes you wonder what the point of breaking the veil even is if there's this many workarounds to be directly influenced by the Shadowlands in absence of being present in the mortal realm.

I kinda liked the idea that those killed by Frostmourne and consequently many first-generation Forsaken were forcibly damned because it kind of set up this especial tragedy and really reinforced the soul stealing/warping power of this alien artifact. As it is now, it seems more kind of possible that the more acerbic nature of the undead is their connection to the Maw by virtue of the origins of undeath itself. Those seeing "only darkness" can also be maybe chalked up to them having influence from the Jailer in their final moments, but still ultimately ending up where they were meant to.

Makes me wonder if the removal of the Jailer would "restore" the Forsaken/Sylvanas emotionally to Golden's seeming vision of them. Which makes sense as an arc capstone but is also strikingly bland.

I feel like Alex/Vashj ending up in Maldraxxus does actually make sense, just not directly. They just needed a very basic mention of her going to Revendreth for some amount of non-perceivable time, for example, to get burned for a bit. :/ Honestly, Revendreth makes sense as a stop for villainous characters, going straight to the Maw pretty much never appears fair, so I'm glad that the in-game lore seems to contradict that the Arbiter would ever consider it. Who would even be worthy of that beyond existential threats that don't go to the Shadowlands anyway?

I vastly prefer the undead actually being damned, but that was always a missed opportunity when it came to an expansion of both reasons for Forsaken to choose to exist instead of killing themselves and as an outlet for Sylvanas to propagandize. The ontological differences have been one of the things that've been spaced almost entirely by now. I appreciate Brooks at least going against the current with his story, even if I expect it to have no reflection given how Danuser, Golden and Afrasiabi hold the reins for the actual main story and they consider undeath to be at best a cosmetic state.

Ideally I'd have just left the afterlife vague, but the easiest fix at present would be to change next to nothing except the framing. Revert the change to Sharth and emphasize how the Arbiter doesn't necessarily work in a flawless way but is following directives and the individual realms have different ways to assess souls and what they find to be heroic or valuable isn't necessarily what we as the audience would identify. But it's been an overall problem with Blizzard and others that they're less and less willing to present any perspective that'd not jive entirely with what'd be seen as morally standard by the audience without either altering it to be milquetoast or destroying it. Current Blizzard would not let you play as the UED or Brood Wars-era Kerrigan, make a campaign with Arthas as the protagonist or have made the Forsaken or night elves. Hell, given how Bolvar is presented now I'd be hard-pressed to believe they'd even make the Legion DK campaign again, given the chance.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

because its true? the sky blue was just an extrapolation of an analogy, is how the game is made and how it should be, there is no logic or necessaty in changing by now, pandarens is an argument by itself because they show why neutral races are bad

Honestly that's the crux of your argument; your own subjectively restrictive interpretation of what the game should be, to what "type of conflict" should the game limited, and keep using the pandaren as confirmation bias "they are bad because they are neutral" instead of even acknowledging that the main problem with pandaren is lack of development, and that's not because they are neutral, but because they are a niche as hell race.

Cause let's be ultra honest; if Blood/High Elves had been a neutral race, they would hardly be a failure. There is so much of your arguments that is outright assumption and subjectivity that boils down to "I don't like it", hardly possible to even have a conversation like that.

[Syegfryed]

Honestly that's the crux of your argument; your own subjectively restrictive interpretation of what the game should be

so is yours, but im not trying to shame you for yours.

Cause let's be ultra honest; if Blood/High Elves had been a neutral race, they would hardly be a failure. There is so much of your arguments that is outright assumption and subjectivity that boils down to "I don't like it", hardly possible to even have a conversation like that.

zzz its always falls down to those elf shenanigans, they are the prime example of why this is bad for older races, let alone new ones.

You like, and want that, is also your subject opinion, don't try to paint otherwise.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

so is yours, but im not trying to shame you for yours.

The difference is that I am seeing it as an option, not as a necessity. You view your opinion as an intrinsic truth. I just see my opinion as a possibility.

zzz its always falls down to those elf shenanigans, they are the prime example of why this is bad for older races, let alone new ones.

You like, and want that, is also your subject opinion, don't try to paint otherwise.

Oh sure, just dismiss the point about pandaren being lackluster in large part because they are a nice race that only a fraction of the population picks instead of elves, the most popular race after humans.

You are not even engaging with the actual arguments -race popularity- and dismiss wholesale yet again saying "it's bad" with not an actual argument. It's tiring.

[Syegfryed]

The difference is that I am seeing it as an option, not as a necessity. You view your opinion as an intrinsic truth. I just see my opinion as a possibility.

i don't see as an option, not in wow, is like wanting an option to play football with hands, if you want that there is other sports.

Oh sure, just dismiss the point about pandaren being lackluster in large part because they are a nice race that only a fraction of the population picks instead of elves, the most popular race after humans.

im not talking about their pick rate, im talking bout they being in the limbo of wow since MOP doing literally jackshit in the factions and only being there as npcs with no role, that is the fate of neutral races in this game and no, because they are pointless and there is no space to focus on why two different races would possible do/be if they chose red and blue because nonsensical reasons

And i don't rly want more and more focus on how egocentric elves and humans are and how they can be sooooooo not clichê having "differen mindsets" and picking different factions because reasons

You are not even engaging with the actual arguments -race popularity- and dismiss wholesale yet again saying "it's bad" with not an actual argument. It's tiring.

race popularity was never my argument

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

i don't see as an option, not in wow, is like wanting an option to play football with hands, if you want that there is other sports.

Jesus christ, one post ago you were all "I don't shame you for your opinion" then treat your own opinion as an immutable fact, making any other opinion utterly invalid.

im not talking about their pick rate, im talking bout they being in the limbo of wow since MOP doing literally jackshit in the factions and only being there as npcs with no role, that is the fate of neutral races in this game and no, because they are pointless and there is no space to focus on why two different races would possible do/be if they chose red and blue because nonsensical reasons

And i don't rly want more and more focus on how egocentric elves and humans are and how they can be sooooooo not clichê having "differen mindsets" and picking different factions because reasons


race popularity was never my argument

Wow, it is like there's a connection you are missing between race popularity and story focus, don't you think? What I am saying is that Pandaren lack development not because they are neutral, but because they are a niche race confined to the narrative of one expansion, as well as a race with no intentions of expanding their influence

FFS dude, it's like you have given zero thought as to WHY Pandaren are lackluster as a race and just run with the "it's because they are neutral" ball, simply because it fits what you so vehemently believe. It's pure confirmation bias.

[Syegfryed]

Jesus christ, one post ago you were all "I don't shame you for your opinion" then treat your own opinion as an immutable fact, making any other opinion utterly invalid.

lol, except i didnt, i said "is like", and is like that to me, i didn't even try to pass up as a fact

Wow, it is like there's a connection you are missing between race popularity and story focus, don't you think? What I am saying is that Pandaren lack development not because they are neutral, but because they are a niche race confined to the narrative of one expansion, as well as a race with no intentions of expanding their influence

You can say for sure their their lack of development is due their being not being popularl? for sure? do you have data and blizzard words to say that? because the race was pretty popular in mop at least and even in their own expansion they receive literally jack shit outside their own isle, they didn't even get a development regard their own people.

So, if the "nice race" of that expansion, didn't get something in that expansion, why they would get lather?

Simple there is nothing to talk about then, they are the same race, in both factions, that just think a bit different, its the fate of any neutral race

FFS dude, it's like you have given zero thought as to WHY Pandaren are lackluster as a race and just run with the "it's because they are neutral" ball, simply because it fits what you so vehemently believe. It's pure confirmation bias.

i completely believe they are lackluster because they are neutral, if we had mogu and pandaren things would be way different as they could focus on their own ancestral conflict but now integrated with the factions, that is something i like in wow, and thas how i want things handled

i don't want the game to be about elves choosing different sides because they are sooooo not cliché, and have different opinions, that for some reason nee to be focused

there is what 20+ races in this game, that need development in this game, there is no reason or sense to stretch this even more to focusing on only one, just because they can chose red and blue and undermine the factions

[LazarusLong]

because its true? the sky blue was just an extrapolation of an analogy, is how the game is made and how it should be, there is no logic or necessaty in changing by now, pandarens is an argument by itself because they show why neutral races are bad



i don't want to see if a race narrative value can exist beyond their faction, i don't want something like that, i want their narrative value to exist tied with the factions, because factions matter, i don't want my game changed just because people don't care about the factions anymore



neutrality is bad because they stick like pandaren a null race, with no importance that just chose what color they like more, its bad for the narrative since it try to tell a different kind of conflict that is not good in a warcraft game, again, awful that just even more the meaning of the factions that are by whole different by their traits visions and races

Your whole argument boils down to "I don't like it hence it's bad".

[Vaedan]

i completely believe they are lackluster because they are neutral, if we had mogu and pandaren things would be way different as they could focus on their own ancestral conflict but now integrated with the factions, that is something i like in wow, and thas how i want things handled

There were discussions about neutral races before MoP and since it had some attention in the community, Blizz possibly decided to explore that. Truth be told, Blizz usually try to implement new features to gameplay each expansion, so neutral playable race is logical step. I always thought pandaren had such bad reception mostly because of their kung-fu panda meme implementation, rather then them being neutral. They also got pretty no faction development after they joined respective factions, which does not help players to create bonds to that race. I guess the whole situation would be vastly different if we get faction specific portrayal of pandaren, which brings them more in line with the faction they chose, but we hardly got that, so who knows. The result is that with their poor implementation and close to no development, they become one of the least popular races.

i don't want the game to be about elves choosing different sides because they are sooooo not cliché, and have different opinions, that for some reason nee to be focused

there is what 20+ races in this game, that need development in this game, there is no reason or sense to stretch this even more to focusing on only one, just because they can chose red and blue and undermine the factions

Like it or not, elves of both factions are among most popular races, so it's obvious Blizz will contribute lot of attention to them, since it affects large playerbase by doing so. It's a question of marketing and player service. If you want to sell your product, you want to make it attractive for the largest number of customers possible. The number of players who chose to play elves clearly shows Blizz that people are interested in these races and these kind of stories, so they build their focus around them. It's quite simple.
If gnomes or goblins would be most dominant races of their factions, we would most likely see them in the front, but that's not the case. I agree that in the most ideal scenario, we would get development for each race, but we never had this equality in wow anyway, so I don't really expect to see it changed.

[Syegfryed]

There were discussions about neutral races before MoP and since it had some attention in the community, Blizz possibly decided to explore that. Truth be told, Blizz usually try to implement new features to gameplay each expansion, so neutral playable race is logical step. I always thought pandaren had such bad reception mostly because of their kung-fu panda meme implementation, rather then them being neutral. They also got pretty no faction development after they joined respective factions, which does not help players to create bonds to that race. I guess the whole situation would be vastly different if we get faction specific portrayal of pandaren, which brings them more in line with the faction they chose, but we hardly got that, so who knows. The result is that with their poor implementation and close to no development, they become one of the least popular races.

Is hard to get a more specific approach because they are the same race, same culture, same things, the only thing that differ are a weird honor code or philosophy thing, those kind of things, even political views, don't work on wow, we are a faction game based around racial conflicts that goes from racism, heavy different features(monsters) to completely different religions and world views in one(shamanism, light worship), this, is wow, completely different races in opposition in a secular war, making two different and unique factions, there is heavy visible differences

The game doesn't work if you keep focusing on the same race, in both factions, but relying on the "mental" side", their philosophy, what they think different, their stances, that doesn't work well here like it would do in other games, because the reasons i said above, uninspiring that would only boils down to the same race pretending to be more pristine or better because they chose X over Y because they Think in some way.

Like it or not, elves of both factions are among most popular races, so it's obvious Blizz will contribute lot of attention to them, since it affects large playerbase by doing so.

Right, but like or not, they pay the same as other players as well, don't they? they play the same, don't they? so, sure, give then lots of attention like screaming childs they are, i don't mind, but they still have to throw the bone to other races, and there is no reason to make changes in the game that will only lead to other races to get less and less, because they have to focus on only one race in both factions, that require way more development.

Way more because is damn easy to see why a goblin become horde, you don't even need to say why, green monsters going in the faction of other green monsters, worgen? well, cursed humans, still humans, but then into the human side

but with a neutral race, like pandarens, why they went to a faction is not implied or implicit, need quests, need things, nee focus to be know and it will take focus and time from other races.

No reason to change a winning team, Blue angels that are light related? night elves but half goat nature magic users? easy pick alliance

Vampires(monsters) with blood(red) magic? easy pick horde.

- - - Updated - - -

Your whole argument boils down to "I don't like it hence it's bad".

Is more like "i don't like it because it's bad"

[Darknessvamp]

I know 'Beta Lore' is technically over but that Oribos cinematic with the Arbiter has got me cackling due to it's vagueness.

"There's a cinematic explaining how the machine of death broke." - Danuser
GG Dan, you got me. It broke is an explanation I guess. /s

[Nerovar]

I know 'Beta Lore' is technically over but that Oribos cinematic with the Arbiter has got me cackling due to it's vagueness.

"There's a cinematic explaining how the machine of death broke." - Ion
GG Ion, you got me. It broke is an explanation I guess. /s

It's probably Argus' soul.

Oribos was an inside job.

[bagina]

I know 'Beta Lore' is technically over but that Oribos cinematic with the Arbiter has got me cackling due to it's vagueness.

"There's a cinematic explaining how the machine of death broke." - Ion
GG Ion, you got me. It broke is an explanation I guess. /s

I know right. What did I even expect

[Nagawithlegs]

so some specific soul broke it. i think it's ysera actually. the red tinge screams emerald nightmare influence.

Argus turns red due to Sargeras's influence in the Mythic fight.|

It may have been Sargeras + Argus combo that killed it.

[Traveler Voltin]

didnt the titans used Argus's soul to put Sargeras in prison?

[Rhlor]

neutral races are awful and blur the factions, pandarens are already a mistake



i didn't see any consistent model for then to be playable, neither saw females, it would be better just o add something else for horde like ogres or gilgoblins

Neutral races can be a good or a bad choice depending on the lore and how popular the races itself is. pandarean have a lore reason to be neutral but people don't like pandarean they are not aesthetically pleasing.


their being neutral has nothing to do with their being unpopular. for example you could make humans a playable race in the horde, you can use the humans of Alterac in the lore they were part of the horde and in WoW they were allies of the orcs of the argus wake. I'm totally sure it would be super popular.


the races that live in the shadowlands have no reason to join the horde or the alliance as they live on another plane of reality.
it would be normal for individuals from the shadowlands to come to azeroth to help the horde or alliance in gratitude for the help