Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[Lane]

Her being tricked and redeemed on that basis despite all she did would be the worst conclusion for all involved

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this. I haven't liked Sylvanas' character since Cata, but she never once impressed me as a fool until this cinematic. Her having bought what the Jailer's selling is extremely disappointing. I suspect at the end she's going to find out everyone has always had free will and that she's responsible for all her own misery. I hope we at least get a moment of deep regret and retrospection that we were denied with Arthas' death. Frankly, if she's going to be "redeemed" I want to see her humanity restored so she at least has to deal with the crushing guilt of everything she's done and that, in particular, she has to acknowledge she willingly became the thing she hated most.

[bagina]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this. I haven't liked Sylvanas' character since Cata, but she never once impressed me as a fool until this cinematic. Her having bought what the Jailer's selling is extremely disappointing. I suspect at the end she's going to find out everyone has always had free will and that she's responsible for all her own misery. I hope we at least get a moment of deep regret and retrospection that we were denied with Arthas' death. Frankly, if she's going to be "redeemed" I want to see her humanity restored so she at least has to deal with the crushing guilt of everything she's done and that, in particular, she has to acknowledge she willingly became the thing she hated most.

I don't think Sylvanas meant that nobody has free will literally but rather that everybody is at mercy of bigger powers in life as well as in death, basically a leaf in the wind, something along these lines.

At the very least I'm glad Andie pointed out to Sydney that the Jailer might be using her. To me it served as an acknowledgement for the audience that yes, it is a possibility and Skyla is aware of that. Imo it was an indirect confirmation that if any backstabbing happens, Sylvia will be expecting it, or she will be the one doing the backstabbing. I'm confident we won't see the situation where she's caught unawares.

If that line wasn't there, I would have my doubts.

[oblakoff]

The beginning is a good starting point for a SFM video

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this. I haven't liked Sylvanas' character since Cata, but she never once impressed me as a fool until this cinematic. Her having bought what the Jailer's selling is extremely disappointing. I suspect at the end she's going to find out everyone has always had free will and that she's responsible for all her own misery. I hope we at least get a moment of deep regret and retrospection that we were denied with Arthas' death. Frankly, if she's going to be "redeemed" I want to see her humanity restored so she at least has to deal with the crushing guilt of everything she's done and that, in particular, she has to acknowledge she willingly became the thing she hated most.

I am against any kind of redemption, introspection would be fine, but only if she acknowledges how much she's fucked up and then goes into it based on sunk cost fallacy. It was a misfire when this kind of thing was done with Kil'jaeden, defusing him as a villain. Sylvanas should have a crisis when she realizes she's been conned but then work to carry her goal through despite that, as she's done previously. Ideally we'd have avoided her thinking a giant blue man speaking entirely in one liners is legitimate in the first place, but we work with what we have. Arthas's ending was poignant for being succinct. Garrosh's ending and why he's memorable is because he was defiant up until the end. KJ meanwhile went from one of the longest running baddies to a footnote based on a mistaken attempt to humanize him. Sylvanas's killed hundreds of thousands at this point, and at least per this cinematic, has done so on the assumption that it doesn't matter since they'll be fuel anyway, they might as well be for her cause instead of for perpetuating the system that makes them such. Finding out she's wrong should be a hit and can make for good drama if Blizzard commit to it, but deciding to repent on that basis would be beyond weak and having people like Tyrande or Genn accept her would be flat out insulting.

By comparison, a pithy moment where she realizes as she gets taken out that the Jailor has tricked her diminishes her, but doesn't make his character any better - only development of his own motives and backstory can do that, on top of dialogue that's less painfully generic. And a Grom style redemption in the way of having the Jailer ditch her would make even that look Shakespearean.

[Lane]

I am against any kind of redemption

So am I, but I've prepared myself for it happening. Arthas' ending, for me personally, was so unsatisfactory. I'm just hoping it's not the same with Sylvanas, whether she lives or dies.

[fuzzylogic111]

The young blood elf mother and child who Sylvanas failed to save - where would they be in Shadowlands?

[Newname1234567890]

The young blood elf mother and child who Sylvanas failed to save - where would they be in Shadowlands?

Probably in a Afterlive we haven't seen. None of the ones we've seen seem very civilian friendly, unless their secretly very evil.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I don't think Sylvanas gave enough clear answers here. Her argument hinges upon the idea that there is no free will in life and that everything is pre-destined with no chance to change it, but she really doesn't answer how that is the case. Only that the Shadowlands judge the actions of the living, which is not the same thing as the actions an individual does in life and that they can't change any decision because of destiny.

Considering that the basic plot of Illidan and Velen in Legion basically disproves her theory by having Illidan show defiance of his own destiny twice (burning out his golden eyes by becoming a Demon Hunter in a flashback and refusing to accept the gift of the Naruu) and Velen no longer following whatever destiny he's been given, this cinematic doesn't do a good job at establishing a stronger premise that could possibly disprove the idea of free will from Legion.

I do hope Sylvanas actually does provide some answers to her basic argumentation, since I can't really follow her line of thinking here. As far as I'm concerned, she is demonstrably wrong in her assessment based on previous storylines.

[Jastall]

Oh hey, her motive is "waaaah the world is unfair, IT'S NOT A PHASE MOM!!!" as expected. I guess it's better than no motive at all, even if she had 0 build-up towards it in her entire 16+ years long character arc apart from the latest cinematic, and the monologue was still cringe as fuck so it all did nothing to help my sentiment that I want her out of the story as soon as humanly possible.

It's also so paper-thin that Anduin puts gaping hole into her entire diatribe by asking obvious yet pertinent question, such as how she can champion fairness while being in cahoots with the guy who sentences literally the dead of an entire universe to eternal slavery and/or torture. Either the "no more lies" is BS and there's still more to the story (as implied by her aborted line) or she really is that delusional.

[Feanoro]

Oh hey, her motive is "waaaah the world is unfair, IT'S NOT A PHASE MOM!!!" as expected. I guess it's better than no motive at all, even if she had 0 build-up towards it in her entire 16+ years long character arc apart from the latest cinematic, and the monologue was still cringe as fuck so it all did nothing to help my sentiment that I want her out of the story as soon as humanly possible.

It's also so paper-thin that Anduin puts gaping hole into her entire diatribe by asking obvious yet pertinent question, such as how she can champion fairness while being in cahoots with the guy who sentences literally the dead of an entire universe to eternal slavery and/or torture. Either the "no more lies" is BS and there's still more to the story (as implied by her aborted line) or she really is that delusional.

Yes, Danuser is delusional enough to think that's a deep, compelling motive. After all, she couldn't even choose... to be with him.

The cinematic was completely useless, absolutely nothing we didn't already know. Who knows, maybe the voice actress is demanding more pointless lines before her nasal whine character is put in cold storage (as I doubt seriously they'll kill her).

[VladlTutushkin]

The Denathrius nepotism thing gets worse because they're one of the fundamental realms. I.e, suppose the Arbiter is infallible and decides you have to repent. All well and good, but those who're torturing you, from what we see, are only secondarily interested in your repentance and more interested in milking you for cash or playing court games, so your afterlife is ruined. And since there's no oversight on the guy in charge this means that the entire redemptive realm is unfit for purpose without outside intervention which'd never come without a way into the Shadowlands. Had Denathrius done all the same things but not been an ally of the Jailor, he'd be scott free and whether you can redeem yourself or not would be based on the whims of his court of pricks and what they feel like at the time. Forever. Maldraxxus in turn not bothering with the morality of those involved has people like KT, Vashj and the two evil houses there who can sectionally fuck up the world there. Bastion's issues go without saying - the difference with the Forsworn is that they're simply numerous enough that instead of sulking they went ham, also because of the push of the Maw, but the fact that duty involved depersonalization was already there. All these are faults within the extant system, some of which make it unfit for purpose even if you take as wrote that the Arbiter is faultless. If you don't and think that maybe Krastinov shouldn't try and get a ticket out, it's different.

At the same time, the Maw is worse than all these realms in every regard - Ardenweald might recycle you out of necessity, the Maw will do it for fuel. Bastion depersonalizes you into being a heroic, selfless robot, the Maw turns you into a robotic husk or burns out your soul. Revendreth tortures you out of redemption out of convenience, the Maw does it permanently for the benefit of the holder and so forth. Hence why I'm saying the takeaway is that she sees the problem but is addressing it in a way that's worse.

@Fixxit the Gnome

It is kind of sad and funny all at the same time that so many Warcraft villains are just shouty, deep-voiced robots talking about destroying us for kicks that what's basically a low-rent Final Fantasy-tier animu villain going on about cosmic suffering is treated as beyond the pale.

Most of those points are true but i was thinking: are ANY afterlife is fair? Like, look at afterlifes our world religions invented over the time. Some require you to die specific way to get there - like Valhalla, and if you DONT die in battle then Hel it is for you, no matter how good or bad you were. Or Heaven which is basically Bastion because in some versions of the “story” it also wipes your memory (at least partially). You can go to Hell for jerking off or having sex outside of marriage or banging another guy/gal and so forth. Some more obscure religions also have all kinds of messed up afterlives or weird and obtuse requirements to enter a “good” one. Hence the point - system is indeed unfair and somebody indeed decides your place and fate there. But it is LITERALLY what ALL Afterlives are like! You dont get to decide where you go after you die. Some dude or dudette or dudio does that for you. Be that whole cabal of lesser deities with tools of measurement or Peter with the Keys. And life is always finite, even for those who cant die of old age. Titans will die eventually, it will just take eons and eons i bet. So basically she wants to break the system that worked since the beginning of the Universe because she is mad at basic “Afterlife rules 101” and hand it all to a guy who basically a mix of Disney Hades and classical Satan in the name of “freedom”. Freedom when that said Nu-Satan uses souls for fuel, eats them, tortures people into battle slavery or literally beats them on an anvil into weapons. Some next level plans here i should say.

- - - Updated - - -

Anduin does not represent me in the least! Fuck anduin, fuck Sylvanas and the jailer.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas has the same thought that Sargeras destroy everything because something is wrong! that's stupid and only an insane maniac can think like that

Correction - he SUPPOSED to represent you. Of course he cant even represent a girlscout member but alas we are saddled with him as “the audience”.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, Danuser is delusional enough to think that's a deep, compelling motive. After all, she couldn't even choose... to be with him.

The cinematic was completely useless, absolutely nothing we didn't already know. Who knows, maybe the voice actress is demanding more pointless lines before her nasal whine character is put in cold storage (as I doubt seriously they'll kill her).

Yes, yes and yes! If anything i am just tired of that nasal, annoying voice that sounds like some juvenile fanfic character (if juvenile fanfic characters had voice actors). She sounds so emo that i can feel my hair developing a neon pink streak in them each time she talks.

[bowlink]

@VladlTutushkin

Worst of all even if you died in battle in norse mythology it was still a 50/50 shot to get into Valhalla, because you could also be sent to freya's field Fólkvangr


also to quote Mark Twain: " Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

[VladlTutushkin]

@VladlTutushkin

Worst of all even if you died in battle in norse mythology it was still a 50/50 shot to get into Valhalla, because you could also be sent to freya's field Fólkvangr


also to quote Mark Twain: " Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

Yep. Forgot about her Volkswagen. Now i imagining Freya driving some “wife version” Volkswagen and picking you up like a kid after school when Ölaf stabs you more then you stab Ölaf. Wonderful. And yes, again - no choice. Like... you dead, you dont get to choose.

[Melusine]

This doesn't make Sylvanas "secretly good". It makes her overtly evil. What she wants is a world free of consequences. She mistakes those consequences for lack of free will. We all have influences that assist our judgment making skills, but ethically speaking, most of our decisions are compelled by some sort of stimulus from the living of our lives.

I think I understand what message blizzard is trying to set the stage for. The Horde value freedom. The Alliance value justice. General statement, here, because as in every culture, naysayers exist. Plenty of examples of contradictions exist. Freedom, while it is a good thing in general, freedom to do as you please, and being free from consequences encourages evil. Justice has expectations of person to person conduct. Certain deeds are considered off limits, and if you do them, people will come after you to ensure you're punished. But as a rule, the fewer of those laws exist, the better. Having a law to dictate every part of peoples' lives is also evil.

My philosophy on rights suggests that every right should come with at least one corresponding responsibility. Example, you have the right to free speech. You will be held accountable civilly if you lie about someone, and you will be held criminally liable if you lie to a police officer or a judge. A right with no corresponding responsibility leads to trouble. Rights that are designed to evade responsibility are just plain evil.

[Eggroll]

I had the weirdest interaction in Icecrown while hunting rares.

We were talking about Tyrande and how Malfurion is MIA. And someone asked why Tyrande would be mad.. I was like WTF!?!? That brought me back to the fact that they conveniently removed the Teldrassil scenario while they kept the Lordaeron one.

Talking of white washing Horde history and making Sylvanas the good guy in the end. People won't even remember The Burning of Teldrassil, new players will never experience it. It will be like it never even happened.

[Ophenia]

I had the weirdest interaction in Icecrown while hunting rares.

We were talking about Tyrande and how Malfurion is MIA. And someone asked why Tyrande would be mad.. I was like WTF!?!? That brought me back to the fact that they conveniently removed the Teldrassil scenario while they kept the Lordaeron one.

Talking of white washing Horde history and making Sylvanas the good guy in the end. People won't even remember The Burning of Teldrassil, new players will never experience it. It will be like it never even happened.

That's probably my main problem with all time-limited content in an RPG. Most pre-expac events disappear so a newcomer will never experience them and will definitely miss any form of continuity. All the lore behind the artifact weapons is probably lost as well since they're de-activated entirely in Legion as well I think (same for HoA ?).

It's weird for Lordaeron though. I would have thought it'd be removed along with War of Thorns.

This doesn't make Sylvanas "secretly good". It makes her overtly evil. What she wants is a world free of consequences. She mistakes those consequences for lack of free will. We all have influences that assist our judgment making skills, but ethically speaking, most of our decisions are compelled by some sort of stimulus from the living of our lives.

I think I understand what message blizzard is trying to set the stage for. The Horde value freedom. The Alliance value justice. General statement, here, because as in every culture, naysayers exist. Plenty of examples of contradictions exist. Freedom, while it is a good thing in general, freedom to do as you please, and being free from consequences encourages evil. Justice has expectations of person to person conduct. Certain deeds are considered off limits, and if you do them, people will come after you to ensure you're punished. But as a rule, the fewer of those laws exist, the better. Having a law to dictate every part of peoples' lives is also evil.

My philosophy on rights suggests that every right should come with at least one corresponding responsibility. Example, you have the right to free speech. You will be held accountable civilly if you lie about someone, and you will be held criminally liable if you lie to a police officer or a judge. A right with no corresponding responsibility leads to trouble. Rights that are designed to evade responsibility are just plain evil.

I think Sylv do not want a world "free of consequences". She just doesn't want a world where 2 years of bad actions leads to eternal damnation. In Sylvanas' case, she was a Ranger all her life, and she probably believes (true or not, we don't know yet) that her "short" passage to the dark side because of the Lich King has damned her forever (Edge of Night stuff). Doesn't mean she means that a Kil'jaeden-level of bad guy should be able to chose to "live" peacefully in the afterlife.

[Eggroll]

That's probably my main problem with all time-limited content in an RPG. Most pre-expac events disappear so a newcomer will never experience them and will definitely miss any form of continuity. All the lore behind the artifact weapons is probably lost as well since they're de-activated entirely in Legion as well I think (same for HoA ?). It's weird for Lordaeron though. I would have thought it'd be removed along with War of Thorns.

The Lordaeron scenario is the player's introduction to BfA. Funny, they always say history is told by the victors. If this is the history told, then the Horde won the 4th war after all.

I know we shouldn't bring rl politics and history in this. But it's an odd paralled between this and actual US history. I've learned that kids in US schools are rarely told about the things white people did to black Americans, about the massacres etc. It's like they live in two different realities.

It's the same with the Burning of Teldrassil. It has been wiped from the story you can experience, so in time, only players who were there at the beginning of BfA will remember it. The rest will just say "why is this Tyrande character even mad?"

[Super Dickmann]

Most of those points are true but i was thinking: are ANY afterlife is fair? Like, look at afterlifes our world religions invented over the time. Some require you to die specific way to get there - like Valhalla, and if you DONT die in battle then Hel it is for you, no matter how good or bad you were. Or Heaven which is basically Bastion because in some versions of the “story” it also wipes your memory (at least partially). You can go to Hell for jerking off or having sex outside of marriage or banging another guy/gal and so forth. Some more obscure religions also have all kinds of messed up afterlives or weird and obtuse requirements to enter a “good” one. Hence the point - system is indeed unfair and somebody indeed decides your place and fate there. But it is LITERALLY what ALL Afterlives are like! You dont get to decide where you go after you die. Some dude or dudette or dudio does that for you. Be that whole cabal of lesser deities with tools of measurement or Peter with the Keys. And life is always finite, even for those who cant die of old age. Titans will die eventually, it will just take eons and eons i bet. So basically she wants to break the system that worked since the beginning of the Universe because she is mad at basic “Afterlife rules 101” and hand it all to a guy who basically a mix of Disney Hades and classical Satan in the name of “freedom”. Freedom when that said Nu-Satan uses souls for fuel, eats them, tortures people into battle slavery or literally beats them on an anvil into weapons. Some next level plans here i should say.

Not necessarily, but my theology is ass so I'll just stick to the basic parts of the one I know more about. God and his angels are ontologically righteous. Further, there's books that tell you what's allowed and what isn't and how to avoid hell. There is no book on the Arbiter because nobody knows how it exists and even if the process is infallible, the way it is with God, the actual commission from then on isn't -in WoW hell, you're judged based on a universal code of ethics that you have no means of knowing and then put into the care not of divine and pure agents but of what are basically extremely powerful magical warlords. Nothing gives Denathrius the right, in the sense of a divine plan, to do what he does, he just happens to be a really powerful dude and can't be unseated without a party outside the Shadowlands going in and on that basis everyone seeking redemption for crimes they might not even be able to delineate as such before they are sent there can go burn in hell forever based on his call alone. The problem of evil and the fate of the unlearned apply to everyone in the setting instead of just some and on top of that aren't administered by immaculate beings but by powerful spellcasters. You can easily game their system too, the way Odyn and Helya for instance have made their own pseudo-afterlives.

Pointing out how being sent to an eternal afterlife based on a finite lifespan which will be decided for you on the basis of rules you have no way of knowing before you die where your fate will be administered by fallible dickheads isn't baseless whining - less egregious variants of it are sticking points for some of the world's biggest religions. It's the "Hand the keys to Satan" part of her position that's so stupid that even the narrative is aware of it and has Anduin call her for along with the fact that she has no program. As even if you take Satan out of the equation, you either have, like @Melusine brings up a situation without consequences where people like her, Arthas, Krastinov etc. can get away with whatever they want or someone will have to make the determinations.

[VladlTutushkin]

Not necessarily, but my theology is ass so I'll just stick to the basic parts of the one I know more about. God and his angels are ontologically righteous. Further, there's books that tell you what's allowed and what isn't and how to avoid hell. There is no book on the Arbiter because nobody knows how it exists and even if the process is infallible, the way it is with God, the actual commission from then on isn't -in WoW hell, you're judged based on a universal code of ethics that you have no means of knowing and then put into the care not of divine and pure agents but of what are basically extremely powerful magical warlords. Nothing gives Denathrius the right, in the sense of a divine plan, to do what he does, he just happens to be a really powerful dude and can't be unseated without a party outside the Shadowlands going in and on that basis everyone seeking redemption for crimes they might not even be able to delineate as such before they are sent there can go burn in hell forever based on his call alone. The problem of evil and the fate of the unlearned apply to everyone in the setting instead of just some and on top of that aren't administered by immaculate beings but by powerful spellcasters. You can easily game their system too, the way Odyn and Helya for instance have made their own pseudo-afterlives.

Pointing out how being sent to an eternal afterlife based on a finite lifespan which will be decided for you on the basis of rules you have no way of knowing before you die where your fate will be administered by fallible dickheads isn't baseless whining - less egregious variants of it are sticking points for some of the world's biggest religions. It's the "Hand the keys to Satan" part of her position that's so stupid that even the narrative is aware of it and has Anduin call her for along with the fact that she has no program. As even if you take Satan out of the equation, you either have, like @Melusine brings up a situation without consequences where people like her, Arthas, Krastinov etc. can get away with whatever they want or someone will have to make the determinations.

I just want to point out how in Christianity God is infallible... except he is also a huge hypocrite at times and its just written down to “he is God he do what he deems necessary”.
But take Greek or Norse mythology/religion and you will learn that Gods are not just falliable but also are massive dickheads. Odin and Zeus alone are worse then Odyn from WoW or Titans and so on. Hades IS just a “magical warlord” in the end and etc. Infallibility of Afterlife is only a concept in Christianity and maybe Islam. Otherwise it is indeed just a “kingdom” ruled by death deities of various moral standing. And you can and WILL be screwed out of it by other gods if they really want to. And to add to it - whole Afterlife system worked since forever so eh, guess it wasnt bad. Plus Forsworn is a relatively new thing and began with Bluether arrival. Then also “moral code” for not getting into Maw is very simple one and EVEN if you really screw up you first go to Revendreth and you might “fix” your mistakes and earn a new Afterlife. Which btw makes WoW system of Aterlife almost laughably lenient. You literally can atone after the fact even if you are a mass murdering maniac like Arthas or whoever that was who blew up planets. Why Sylvanas went into the Maw? No idea. My guess? Jailer. He spotted her on the Icecrown and was like “Bingo! Arthas just died but a better tool made its way to my hands...”

[Arrashi]

I was half expecting that Sylvanas would torture him (with "Old days" by Chicago playing in the background). Im quite disappointed.