Mega-Thread: 2020 United States General Election

[Breccia]

What would it do to expose leverage foreign countries have over Trump, besides give closure?

This is about hypocrisy.

If Dobbs/Powell are that concerned about foreign influence, they should be asking to see Trump's taxes.

They aren't.

Therefore, they're not concerned about foreign influence. They are being hypocrites.

P.S. All the other reasons to see Trump's taxes, including of course felony fraud.

[Belize]

So the claim is that in GA, counting machines manipulated the vote to inflate Biden's numbers? You're filing this lawsuit in the state where a HAND recount of every literally ballot has just completed and confirmed Biden won... That's the state you're going to file this particular lawsuit? You sure about that?

No one has ever accused Mrs."Smoot Brained Kraken" to be particularly bright.

[Breccia]

Can Trump's lawyers be disciplined for making false claims?

All 50 states and the District of Columbia have legal ethics rules for lawyers that are derived from standards published by the American Bar Association.

One ABA rule says that lawyers should only assert a claim in court if “there is a basis in law and fact for doing so that is not frivolous.”

Separately, there are rules prohibiting lawyers from making false statements to third parties and engaging in deceitful conduct.

Judges can punish lawyers who violate ethics rules in a particular case by ordering them to pay the winning party’s legal fees.

Judges can also impose milder sanctions such as striking a misleading document from the court record.

These case-specific punishments are sometimes known as “Rule 11 sanctions” in federal court.

Ethics rules are also enforced by regulatory bodies, typically “grievance committees” run by state judiciaries.

These bodies can suspend a lawyer or revoke his or her license.

And...

Rules governing attorney conduct apply both inside and out of the courtroom.

“Lawyers definitely have a lot more leeway in press conferences, but they still cannot engage in deceit in their statements,” said Keith Swisher, an ethics law professor at the University of Arizona.

On Twitter and in media appearances, Giuliani and attorney Sidney Powell appeared to have run afoul of rules barring them from making dishonest statements, said Brian Faughnan, a lawyer and ethics specialist in Tennessee.

The Trump campaign has since said that Powell is no longer representing it.

Faughnan said Giuliani acted unethically by tweeting on Nov. 22 that there were “PHANTOM VOTERS” in the Detroit area.

That tweet appeared to reference a sworn statement by a cybersecurity analyst, submitted in court, that had a major error: it confused data from Minnesota with data from Michigan.

Two days previously, the lawyer who filed the affidavit, Lin Wood, conceded that it was mistaken and needed to be corrected.

Giuliani either knew his tweet was false, or reasonably should have known it was false, Faughnan said.

However.

Despite these apparent ethical lapses, Faughnan said he did not expect state grievance committees to take action against Giuliani and Powell.

Faughnan said investigators have limited resources, and will focus on more straightforward violations such as lawyers who steal from clients.

Faughnan said investigators would also be wary of disciplining lawyers when its about politics.

“When it is a very politically charged case, you know the first line of defense is going to be ‘you are only doing this to us because of our politics,’” said Faughnan.

Sanctions imposed by judges are more possible, Faughnan said, but still unlikely. Sanctions are typically requested by opposing counsel, who may decide the fight is not worth the time and energy, he said.

“Is a court going to take it upon itself to issue any sort of sanction in these circumstances? They might but it seems unlikely,” he said.

I'm not sure ifl this is "Lawful Evil" and "purl=http://easydamus.com/neutralevil.html]Neutral Evil[/url]". I don't know if Trump's legal team is carefully trying to stay within the guidelines of ethics, or if they're breaking the rules because they don't care if they get caught. However, intentionally pushing forward a series of objectively false claims, when you're not supposed to, to further the cause of taking something you don't deserve (an election you lost) is unquestionably evil.

- - - Updated - - -

Trump was supposed to go to Pennsylvania to discuss election fraud with like-minded GOPers.

He just canceled.

Possible reasons include:

1) Boris Epshteyn, a campaign advisor who hung out with Giuliani a lot without wearing a mask, tested positive, and people are worried about yet another super spreader event Trump personally causes.

2) Pennsylvania certified.

3) Every single court case of merit failed and sitting around saying "You know what would have helped? Some evidence!" gets old after about fifteen minutes.

4) Trump is afraid to leave the White House bunker.

5) Young Bannon wants to play Shadowlands and hotel WiFi sucks balls

6) He was never going to go anyhow, he just wanted to see which PA lawmakers signed up so he could Tweet about the others

7) The witnesses Giuliani said would be there, witnesses who have signed affidavits about election fraud but for some reason never entered a courtroom, flaked out.

8) Okay I'll be honest here, I looked through 12 different national and local websites to find the name of the hotel to make a "Four Seasons landscaping" kind of joke but I could not find the hotel. Maybe you can, but at this point, the fact that the hotel isn't bragging about this is a joke in and of itself.

9) It's forecast to rain later in Gettysburg so golfing it out.

and of course

10) The whole thing has been a smokescreen, Fake News to give the public appearance of "fighting for YOU THE VOTER give me your money". When people stopped donating to objective loser Donald Trump, he threw a tantrum and decided not to go see the people fighting overtime for what little election chance he still has, in the ultimate "fuck you" to not just the rabid fanbase but the most rabid of the rabid fanbase, because Trump only cares about Trump.

[cubby]

Couldn't they just wait until Jan 21st to nail him with everything? It would still be an expedient trial.

They definitely could do that - and more than likely will. I'm just not sure about the NY AG's office - they have been chomping at the bit to get at the Trump Organization for over a year.

[PhaelixWW]

"My client went to the protest with the intend of protecting the property of fellow Americans".

That's not a crime. There was no criminal intent prior to the events in Wisconsin.

There's no real benefit to the prosecution to even attempt to argue that there was, either. They want the charges to stay in Wisconsin, too. Illinois doesn't seem to want to argue it, either, based on his extradition.

[Endus]

That's not a crime. There was no criminal intent prior to the events in Wisconsin.

There's no real benefit to the prosecution to even attempt to argue that there was, either. They want the charges to stay in Wisconsin, too. Illinois doesn't seem to want to argue it, either, based on his extradition.

The issues with the claim have many layers, though.

First, demonstrate that your client was asked to protect the property of those fellow Americans. I don't mean some militia buddies said so, I mean a direct request from those property owners, to Rittenhouse specifically or (more likely) to the leader of a militia of which he was an official member (is he even entitled to be, at age 17?). If there is no such request, then they weren't there to protect anyone's property; that's just a straight up lie. If it was to a militia group that Rittenhouse wasn't a recognized member of, then he wasn't part of that request.

Second, justify how Rittenhouse was armed, to engage in that "protection". Justify the training he has with that weapon and how to handle himself, etc. We're gonna need actual records, here, not "my son's good with a gun" bullshit. If he's not proficient, he couldn't possibly be considered "protection" for anything.

Thirdly, we've now discovered that Rittenhouse has A> deliberately (and illegally) armed himself, to B> go into what he knew was a dangerous situation (if anyone/anything needed "protecting", that's a given), and he clearly was not prepared or ready to deal with that. Congrats; by establishing that the account is true, you've demonstrated Rittenhouse had intent to engage in lethal force. If you hadn't, you'd be in an even worse legal position, of course.

Fourth; now we get into the specifics of the actual shootings.

That's going to be the big problem with his defense; showing up armed to a dangerous situation is a demonstration of intent. It's like if a wife grabs a gun before confronting her husband and provoking an argument, and then shooting him. Her choice to grab the gun first is considered, under the law, a demonstration of intent. She can't later claim that the argument escalated and she panicked; she deliberately armed herself in preparation. The only way to escape a murder charge, in this circumstance, is by demonstrating that your husband posed a direct and immediate threat to you and was likely to kill you at any moment, and if you're the one who initiated and escalated the argument, that defense isn't gonna fly.

Intent does not mean you need to have a specific victim in mind. If I climb a clocktower with a sniper rifle, planning to shoot a half-dozen random people, I have clear intent, even if I have no specific target in mind.

[Paranoid Android]

Pennsylvania Republican press conference if FUCKIN NUTS!

First they are equating this to the Battle of Gettysburg, where the press conference taking place. Second he rants about about again some conspiratorial voter fraud from voting machines, votes being thrown out, added votes, etc. With no evidence. Next would be you would need 100,000 plus "voter fraud" to overturn. With of course all going to Biden. Last but not least Biden would still win without Pennslyvania.

Republicans are pieces of shit. This if from a purple state. Not frikin Alabama. Don't ever tell me that this party as a whole represents America.

[Redwyrm]

Pennsylvania Republican press conference if FUCKIN NUTS!

First they are equating this to the Battle of Gettysburg, where the press conference taking place. Second he rants about about again some conspiratorial voter fraud from voting machines, votes being thrown out, added votes, etc. With no evidence. Next would be you would need 100,000 plus "voter fraud" to overturn. With of course all going to Biden. Last but not least Biden would still win without Pennslyvania.

Republicans are pieces of shit. This if from a purple state. Not frikin Alabama. Don't ever tell me that this party as a whole represents America.

Watching it now. Guiliani is supposed to speak

[masterhorus8]

Don't ever tell me that this party as a whole represents America.

Nah, just 74 million people.

[Paranoid Android]

Oh I guess Giuliani is giving us witnesses. More to come!

- - - Updated - - -

Nah, just 74 million people.

Ooh edgelord, you got me! Obviously don't get I'm talking about them trying to overturn our Constitutional process of voting.

Okay @masterhorus8, I take it more as snark with your reply to Endus. I apologize if this was the case then. But I stand by my reply and the people who voted they have motives too long that I won't post here.

[Endus]

Nah, just 74 million people.

The real issue is how can the divide possibly be crossed, between reality and those 74 million, who are clearly willfully divorcing themselves from reality?

What possible argument or plea can you make, to get them to abandon their extremist propaganda and return to reasonable grounds for discussion and compromise?

You can't compromise with them as they are. They're not acting from a sense of justice, just power. The unjust will ask you for compromise, and when you take a step towards them, they'll take a step backwards, and then demand compromise once more. All you can do is resist and oppose them, and pray that you've got enough strength in the legislature to keep a cap on things.

Long-term, I'm not sure there is a solution. At least, not one that isn't horrendously evil, like slaughtering your opponents. Like a lot of these nutcases believe, ironically. And if there isn't a solution, it may be that the only real option is to find a way to salvage what can be saved. Cut off the diseased bits of the country and try and save the rest. Split the USA into two nations, with much debate of course and some leeway for a few years to allow individuals to migrate to where they want to be.

[Breccia]

First they are equating this to the Battle of Gettysburg

Wow that's stupid.

The Battle of Gettysburg was fought in mid 1863. Lee surrendered in April 1865.

Also, you said there's a bunch of people talking about a vast conspiracy. Okay. Are they taking it to court? Because if they're not taking it to court, then it doesn't really matter what they say.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I guess Giuliani is giving us witnesses.

In court? Because otherwise they're not witnesses. They're just people saying stuff.

[Paranoid Android]

Two witnesses so far are crying about the distance they were from the ballot counters. Throwing shit to see if it sticks from anything to they are just counting it as Biden, counting "illegitimate" ballots, etc. Again, NO EVIDENCE, just projection and conspiracy.

- - - Updated - - -

In court? Because otherwise they're not witnesses. They're just people saying stuff.

Alright you got me there.

LOL! Third witness first sentence admits she is in the cult of Trump. Saying 4 years ago "I watched Donald Trump come down and an escalator and joined the cult". I'm sorta paraphrasing.

[masterhorus8]

The real issue is how can the divide possibly be crossed, between reality and those 74 million, who are clearly willfully divorcing themselves from reality?

What possible argument or plea can you make, to get them to abandon their extremist propaganda and return to reasonable grounds for discussion and compromise?

You can't compromise with them as they are. They're not acting from a sense of justice, just power. The unjust will ask you for compromise, and when you take a step towards them, they'll take a step backwards, and then demand compromise once more. All you can do is resist and oppose them, and pray that you've got enough strength in the legislature to keep a cap on things.

Long-term, I'm not sure there is a solution. At least, not one that isn't horrendously evil, like slaughtering your opponents. Like a lot of these nutcases believe, ironically. And if there isn't a solution, it may be that the only real option is to find a way to salvage what can be saved. Cut off the diseased bits of the country and try and save the rest. Split the USA into two nations, with much debate of course and some leeway for a few years to allow individuals to migrate to where they want to be.

I agree with the first part. It's absolutely disgusting at how many people actually go along with this crap. As for how to deal with, ideally, it's to educate people. But due to just how many people there are and that it continues for generations, it just feels pointless.

[PhaelixWW]

Thirdly, we've now discovered that Rittenhouse has A> deliberately (and illegally) armed himself, to B> go into what he knew was a dangerous situation (if anyone/anything needed "protecting", that's a given), and he clearly was not prepared or ready to deal with that. Congrats; by establishing that the account is true, you've demonstrated Rittenhouse had intent to engage in lethal force. If you hadn't, you'd be in an even worse legal position, of course.

The charges of violating open carry laws are entirely state charges. If he was carrying illegally (which he was), then those are two separate crimes and thus separate charges in each of the two states. More importantly, there's no federal counterpart to those laws.

Even more importantly:

[Kyle Rittenhouse] will not be charged with gun crimes in his home state, an Illinois state prosecutor announced.

Lake County, Ill. State's Attorney Michael Nerheim's office said in a statement that an investigation conducted by local police "revealed the gun used in the Kenosha shooting was purchased, stored and used in Wisconsin."

"Additionally, there is no evidence the gun was ever physically possessed by Kyle Rittenhouse in Illinois," the state's attorney's office added.

The only charges in this case are from Wisconsin.

Fourth; now we get into the specifics of the actual shootings.

That's going to be the big problem with his defense; showing up armed to a dangerous situation is a demonstration of intent. It's like if a wife grabs a gun before confronting her husband and provoking an argument, and then shooting him. Her choice to grab the gun first is considered, under the law, a demonstration of intent. She can't later claim that the argument escalated and she panicked; she deliberately armed herself in preparation. The only way to escape a murder charge, in this circumstance, is by demonstrating that your husband posed a direct and immediate threat to you and was likely to kill you at any moment, and if you're the one who initiated and escalated the argument, that defense isn't gonna fly.

Intent does not mean you need to have a specific victim in mind. If I climb a clocktower with a sniper rifle, planning to shoot a half-dozen random people, I have clear intent, even if I have no specific target in mind.

There's plenty of time for the criminal intent to have started in Wisconsin before the shooting. After all, if the firearm wasn't possessed until he was Wisconsin, then even by your argument of when he made his "choice to grab the gun first" is objectively confined to Wisconsin, as well.

This is also all moot if the DA isn't arguing criminal intent all the way back to Illinois. Who's going to argue this, then, the defense?


EDIT: But this is going way far off-topic. Trump can't pardon Rittenhouse, as the charges aren't federal, whether or not anyone thinks they should be.

[Breccia]

Two witnesses so far are crying about the distance they were from the ballot counters.

My goodness, the outrage! They should challenge that in court and oh wait they did.

Also, this OP ED brings up a possible option to handle Trump being a fat obese fatass fat fatty obese fatass obstacle to the transition: President Pence.

It fits what we talked about before -- Trump wanting a pardon and also wanting to leave for Thanksgiving Christmas and not come back.

[Endus]

EDIT: But this is going way far off-topic. Trump can't pardon Rittenhouse, as the charges aren't federal, whether or not anyone thinks they should be.

I was primarily speaking against the idea that we can't determine intent off Rittenhouse's choice to arm himself and attend the protest, given the circumstances, not whether resulting charges would be in any particular jurisdiction or not. FWIW.

[Breccia]

Is this the thing Trump bailed on?

It's the thing I said Trump bailed on, but I haven't actually checked the feed.

[Redwyrm]

Is this the thing Trump bailed on?

That's the one. Trump canceled his appearance. Now it's just Guiliani, almost every republican PA state senator, and witness testimony

[solinari6]

I gave up watching. Witness testimony seems to be mostly: "I saw something that I didn't understand, so it must have been those tricksy democrats committing fraud!"