Shadowlands Plothole?

[Gaidax]

Souls do not immediately and/or automatically move on to Shadowlands, they linger for a while in their home realm. Sometimes a VERY long while, if they are held back in some way.

Additionally you have in Kyrian covenant campaign a quest where you are shown that souls need to be ferried by Kyrian and do not really go automatically to Shadowlands by themselves. There are other entities that can also ferry souls either to Shadowlands or some other place.

[Dastreus]

Then you haven't played Hevensward, HW has the best mmo writing ever, I'd even say it has some of the best videogame writing ever.

Shadowbringers says hello. (But also HW is second best to ShB)

[Mehrunes]

I dont know what game it was but they decided to make all endings canon, even the contradicting ones. Especialy contradicting ones.

Also, quicksave is canon superpower in Morrowind at least.

It was Daggerfall. I guess stuff like Dragonbreaks (the first one made almost a thousand years disappear from history) can be described as trippy. But I was wondering if they were by any chance referring to Kirkbride's material. Because that crap isn't canon.

[shadowmatrix]

Then why does ol Bwon want us to collect 1000 soulds for him among the Blood Trolls, who don't worship him?

Because they are free agents that serve no other loa? It's not like Ghuun is going to complain to anyone.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Then why does ol Bwon want us to collect 1000 soulds for him among the Blood Trolls, who don't worship him?

Maybe he's just really lonely, and just wants some friends? Or, he's hungry, and those souls were his snacks

[bagina]

I still maintain that Kyrians are naughty little thieves and souls don't belong to them by default. As we've seen before, other entities are also capable of taking the souls away. Basically, it's free real estate for whoever's the fastest. It's a constant battle for your soul. How poetic.

[Eapoe]

I was just wondering how bolvar is raising death knights (I.e Allied races) if every soul is stuck in the Maw

Didnt every soul go straight into the maw after Sylvanas made the pact with the jailer/Helya in legion? Does Bolvar have the ability to just pull people out of the shadowlands at command? What happened to no one escapes the maw

Also, doesent technically all death knights and undead remember the shadowlands? Why is it being treated as a mystery?

The Entire Sylvanas Jailer plot just doesen't make sense to me. So the Jailer draws souls from the entire universe, but where exactly does Sylvanas fit in? If millions/Billions are dying every day across the stars, what kind of significance does burning teldrassil even have? Hundreds of thousand lives lost is basically a drop in the ocean compared to the billions across the star. Not to talk about Old gods and burning legion battling it out and burning/corrupting worlds killing further millions. Teldrassil just seems so insignifcant on a galactic scale, how in the world was that enough to break the jailer free?

Speaking of souls, then what are wisps or any ghosts for that matter? Have they escaped the shadowlands? The Elven spirits in dire maul or the ghosts of Karazhan, has there been any explaination?

ty

Per canon, the only souls Bolvar pulled out as DKs happened, at the latest, in Legion. They are also people who died long before then so they wouldn’t be in the Maw, depending on how they lived obviously. If you want to talk about new ones, such as Vulpera and the like, this is easily justified as “having died before the machine of death broke.”
There’s no answer for what souls remember. Maybe they have a trace of it, maybe they don’t. How many humans in real life die and come back and speak of an afterlife they witnessed while so many more do not?
Who says millions and billions are dying every day? Blizzard stated they all share the same afterlife. The flip side is we don’t know how many there actually are, let alone how many have souls still left there before the machine broke. Sylvanas could have also made the deal with him and orchestrated many wars and genocides across multiple AUs, or maybe there’s something about this reality considering it seems to be the one that influences so many others.
As to your question about wisps. They are former NEs who have become one with nature. It’s entirely possible that they don’t all go off to Ardenweald, or that they can move freely back and forth. Ardenweald is designed for nature spirits who are ready to be rejuvenated and returned to life, namely wild gods.
Also, your definition of a plot hole in this instance is wrong. A plot hole is an issue in the middle of a story that was created when the beginning and the end are told and the middle has contradictory information as to how the two align. We haven’t been shown the end, nor have these things come up and are open ended. Therefore, there is no plot hole but unanswered questions, some of which we’ll probably never get the answer to.

[RobertMugabe]

This thread is literally just "I refuse to read quest texts or look up the answers to this from interviews so I'll just rant".

If you actually cared you wouldn't be making this.

End of discussion.

Was about to write the same. Almost every post is super cringy and it's clear that none bothered to actually read the story and yet they rant and insult blizzards writing team.

[loras]

I was just wondering how bolvar is raising death knights (I.e Allied races) if every soul is stuck in the Maw

Didnt every soul go straight into the maw after Sylvanas made the pact with the jailer/Helya in legion? Does Bolvar have the ability to just pull people out of the shadowlands at command? What happened to no one escapes the maw

Also, doesent technically all death knights and undead remember the shadowlands? Why is it being treated as a mystery?

The Entire Sylvanas Jailer plot just doesen't make sense to me. So the Jailer draws souls from the entire universe, but where exactly does Sylvanas fit in? If millions/Billions are dying every day across the stars, what kind of significance does burning teldrassil even have? Hundreds of thousand lives lost is basically a drop in the ocean compared to the billions across the star. Not to talk about Old gods and burning legion battling it out and burning/corrupting worlds killing further millions. Teldrassil just seems so insignifcant on a galactic scale, how in the world was that enough to break the jailer free?

Speaking of souls, then what are wisps or any ghosts for that matter? Have they escaped the shadowlands? The Elven spirits in dire maul or the ghosts of Karazhan, has there been any explaination?

ty

Nope, it's as of right now unknown what caused the arbiter to fail during Legion, though the venthyr claim Denathrius did it and the red color of the "missile" striking the arbiter implies as much too. It might have been Argus soul or some other powerful soul that died during Legion, or something else entirely, but we do not yet know.

Many powerful creatures can pull souls out if the Shadowlands, Bwonsamdi does this in a structured manner for troll souls and is assaulted for that reason during one of the dungeons. Other creatures that can clearly do that include Eyir (Val'kyr leader under Odyn), Helya and apparantly Bolvar, though it should be noted that all player death knights are created before he loses the Lich King's helmet.

You generally do not remember your time in the Shadowlands as a truly dead soul, barring a rare few exceptions.

Teldrassil wasn't relevant on a cosmic scale due to its slaughter, Saurfang had it right that the main consequence was that "They will come for us now!"; it was likely intended to weaken the horde and alliance, much like the release of N'zoth and the destruction of the fleets in Nazjatar was.
Even Bolvar mentions that the Legion's arrival was way worse than the fourth war while not having any notable effect on the realm of death.

Teldrassil did not set the jailer free, also he is not free yet even after the events of Shadowlands.

Whisps and ghosts are souls that by some power do not pass on into the Shadowlands at all, i presume that whisps in example use the magic of life to remain, while many ghosts sre bound by powers of the arcane, fel, void (rarely i think) and sometimes plain old necromancy (death magic).
Dire Maul and Karazhan are both known to have seen a lot of arcane and fel abuse, perhaps even some void magic.

[Beuargh]

NOONE has read quest text. Ever.

Hyperbole of course but if Blizzard can't tell a decent coherebt narrative without then that is not the fault of the players

This.

If I have to go outside the game and look for interviews and shit to understand the story that the game is supposed to tell, there is something wrong with the game's storytelling obviously.....

The worst part is, when you look for it and find something, it sounds like they first wrote the SL story and then try to make it fit the existing lore. Hair pulled and forced as fuck.

[Jastall]

What's trippy about TES lore?

A buncha things; for example instead of Blizzard's usual retcons where they pretend inconvenient facts never happened, ES actually says that the universe was changed due to divine intervention or timelines crashing together or whatnot, their demon-equivalents are actually somewhat mysterious and threatening and not just treated as raid boss fodder, and the entire setting is strongly implied to just be the fever dreams of a dying god or something along those lines. Point is, the backstory delves very strongly into the metaphysical and it's pretty interesting overall, shame the actual games practically never show this and are a complete bore.

[Beuargh]

there is no plot hole but unanswered questions, some of which we’ll probably never get the answer to.

Lol..... so practical.... easy way out. Nothing to see.

[Gurahk]

If you guys bothered to read the lore you're complaining about, then this would be good criticism. But this "plothole" is already solved, souls linger before they go to the shadowlands. Bolvar raises the freshly-killed as DKs so their souls don't go there, this doesn't apply to those killed before the arbiter stopped working in the middle of legion.

[Thage]

You seem to actually be more in agreement of what I said than trying to counter it.

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing, just providing additional context. You are correct in this regard (most of the afterlives we go to are pretty awful, but the people sent to them are the people who would find fulfillment in those afterlives; obviously you or I would be sent elsewhere to a more fulfilling afterlife).

Whether or not Maldraxxus is necessary for defence, it seems pretty ambivalent about the moral compass of who ends up there. Indeed your idea that it’s using them for their martial prowess to defend the place makes it sound even worse.

Indeed! The Necrolords are morally ambivalent, so long as your fealty is to the Shadowlands. This is an issue, as seen with the leveling story in Maldraxxus and the Draka short, because it means those with ambitions beyond defending the Shadowlands can 'game the system.' I believe we will see the theme of 'a better path forward' that shows in the Kyrian and Venthyr will repeat itself in the Necrolords, and possibly the Night Fae (although the Night Fae are the least-morally ambiguous of the bunch, being that their commitment is to the natural cycle of life, death, and rebirth).

I also didn’t get the impression Bastion wanted to change. It felt more like it’s failure to get memories erased was proving the point of its necessity. I particularly found the idea of the Owlkin that serve as part of the environment and atmosphere that service of some unseen higher power was the be all and end all of eternity very jarring, along with the conversation sign offs of “go in service”. It’s too entrenched to be something that looks like anyone is questioning. It felt, and the zone looked, like it was run by a despot like North Korea, replete with massive, clean architecture, all put there and maintained by serfs - but never for their (or any real) use.

I don't want to spoil anything, but by the end of Shadowlands questing there is a growing sentiment that the way things are is not working and something needs to be re-examined. In a way, Uther and Arthas helped expose a significant flaw in the path the Kyrian follow, and I expect going forward divesting your mortal memories to be a choice rather than a requirement for ascension depending on how well you can cope with leaving your past behind to focus on your duty, or at least use your past experiences to strengthen your belief in your duty, or if you desire a clean slate and fresh start.

It’s only Ardenweald that doesn’t really fit the overall hellscape, but we know little of who ends up there, though what we do see, it seems rather to be some kind of limbo where those who’ve done awful things under duress are able to heal.

Sort of. The Venthyr are more likely where those souls go; the cycle of rebirth in Ardenweald is reserved for nature spirits like the Wild Gods/Ancients (and possibly loa) and those whose belief in the sanctity of the natural cycle is chief among their beliefs.

Lastly it being called the Shadowlands doesn’t exactly give it an aura of nicety either.

Nice, no, but dark is not evil. Misguided and too close to the situation to see significant flaws, absolutely. But fresh eyes on the situation and a different perspective are helping bring those issues to light so they can be addressed.

[Steelangel]

Was about to write the same. Almost every post is super cringy and it's clear that none bothered to actually read the story and yet they rant and insult blizzards writing team.

Par for the course around here. Some people build up their own headcanons and then it’s “bad writing” when the actual writers don’t match their expectations perfectly.

Or it’s seemingly inconsistent minutae in game that in their minds drives them mad.

[Super Dickmann]

Necromancy being able to get you out of the Maw or the afterlife in general is as old as the idea of a hell dimension itself. I can see how one can miss this, given that it's been Sylvanas's entire motivation for years on end and a point has been made about people not remembering the afterlife they went to in any great detail. Ditto, Bwon, Odyn and Helya have been nabbing souls since they've been introduced.

[Mehrunes]

A buncha things; for example instead of Blizzard's usual retcons where they pretend inconvenient facts never happened, ES actually says that the universe was changed due to divine intervention or timelines crashing together or whatnot, their demon-equivalents are actually somewhat mysterious and threatening and not just treated as raid boss fodder, and the entire setting is strongly implied to just be the fever dreams of a dying god or something along those lines. Point is, the backstory delves very strongly into the metaphysical and it's pretty interesting overall, shame the actual games practically never show this and are a complete bore.

Fair enough. Though the universe changing/timelines crashing isn't usually due to retcons (though occasionally it is, like in case of Cyrodiil's ecosystem), but to cover things like multiple endings of Daggerfall (where they all somehow happened despite being mutually excusive). Or sometimes just for world building that had nothing to do with in-game events, like the first Dragonbreak. I wouldn't personally call the Daedra not being treated as fodder as trippy though. Just a deeper take on things than "hohoho you disagree with Anduin so you bad".

Though that's not to say I dislike TES background lore. Not in the least. There's a reason why I chose my nickname after a Daedric Prince, after all. But personally the biggest strength of it is that TES realized there are going to appear divergent takes on history, especially parts of history that are parts myth and legend. Which is pretty organic. So we have conflicting creation myth, various stories about Tiber Septim, different views on Lorkhan's treachery and so on. And then there's the part that there is no "while some cultures believe X, Y is what factually happened" shoved in there. Because mysteries like that are not only good, but also make sense because things get lost in time.

As for the Godhead thing, it's all Kirkbride's stuff that he wrote years after leaving Bethesda altogether. And while Bethesda occasionally throws his fans a bone by making some character use some of the terminology appearing in Kirkbride's work like CHIM, personally I'd say there's kinda a reason why most of the time the character they choose for that is a lunatic like Mankar Camoran (who was quite clearly wrong about certain things he preached about, like Lorkhan being a Deadra or Nirn being a plane of Oblivion) or that annoying priest from Whiterun.

And speaking of Kirkbride, looping back to what I think is one of Elder Scrolls greatest strengths when it comes to the story, the reason I find Kirkbride so annoying is that whenever he approaches a topic where there are multiple conflicting sources his one and only solution is LEL THEY ARE ALL TRUE AT THE SAME TIME. Who's the Underking, Zurin Arctus or Ysmir Wulfharth? Why, the both of them together, of course. They are also both Talos together with Tiber Spetim, because why the hell not. Different races call the same god by different names, which is a completely natural phenomenon? Akshually, they are all separate gods! That are also a part of the greater god! Which creation myth is real? Obviously all at once, and not in the simplified fashion of the in-game Monomyth book.

And if he did that shit occasionally, that'd be one thing. But he does it all the time, which turns it from a weird aspect of TES lore like the Daggerfall ending to utterly cheap gimmick that goes against the very nature of TES lore. And just as Blizzard did with the Chronicles, he also commits the sin of answering every mystery, even when it cheapens things (which also goes against the very nature of TES lore). The above is already an example of that.

But let's look at parts of Kirkbride's stuff that appear in the game as well without being preached by crazy people. Like the towers. While in game the towers are referred to in prophecies, more or less vague books and equally vague Thalmor plans in Skyrim, in Kirkbride's work they are also thoroughly answered, leaving no room for imagination or mystery. When all towers fall, Nirn is unraveled and the state of the cosmos goes back to before Lorkhan's treachery so that the Mer can go back to being divine (because their creation myth is objectively factual, like all the others). That's all. Yay. Glad I had the metaphysical stuff laid out on the table for me.

Hell, the aforementioned Godhead is also an example of him explaining what really didn't need to be explained. In canon TES lore the answer to "how the universe came to be" is "here's 50000 different takes on that that may just well all be wrong". In Kirkbride's work it's LEL 'TIS ALL A DREAM, . It's the same kind of pointless fluff that in the end only cheapens things like when Blizzard decided to spell it out that the universe came to be when the Light and the Void bumped uglies by accident. Not to mention that to me the Godhead always slightly reeked off an attempt at a fourth wall break of "this world isn't real because it's actually a game".

[Oneirophobia]

I feel like they wanted to use Garona but remembered she's still alive, so they instead opted for relative blank-slate Draka to fill the gap. Which, alright, sure, go wild, but maybe have her character grow with us to show how she comes into her own rather than just drop her off at our porch already one of the top dogs in the Necrolords.

edit: Like... Draka was alright in WoD and all but I can't tell you off the top of my head anything really noteworthy she did even though she tagged along fairly often and I was always down to see her when she did show up.

I don't understand why they didn't just use Lady Vashj, she got a sick unique model, she's a familiar face from WC3, they started a weird subplot with her being some sort of family-legacy ruining exile in Vashj'ir, they could hint at what Azshara is now up to, AND she's already in Maldraxxus.

[Thage]

I don't understand why they didn't just use Lady Vashj, she got a sick unique model, she's a familiar face from WC3, they started a weird subplot with her being some sort of family-legacy ruining exile in Vashj'ir, they could hint at what Azshara is now up to, AND she's already in Maldraxxus.

No clue. I really hope they don't underutilize Vashj, though. I'm liking this whole thing where we have leftover beef but she's down to throw down alongside us 'cause she's got bigger fish to fry, pun intended.

[Yuli]

There's a few troll souls around Bastion and the Maw. Shouldn't they be in De Other Side? Or, does Bwonsamdi not claim every trollian soul? I'm confuse

I don't know if someone already gave an answer to that. You can look into Shadows Rising or the adventure journal for De Other Side. Bwonsamdi can't save every troll, that would drain him of his powers, he tries to save the most important and powerful and that's why Mueh'zala wants him gone.