Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[Varodoc]

Funny thing is I feel the same way about Alleria. She keeps playing with powers she doesn't understand and is an unwitting pawn of the Void Lords.

Anduin is another pawn, to think of it, very few main character's in wow aren't pawns of one power or another.

Alleria is pawn to no one. She is her own master. The Void Lords can try to whisper in her ear as long as they want, as they have tried for centuries. They will always fail.

[Powerogue]

We are not redeeming Sylvanas. Quote me on it.

Someone having motivations beyond "bwar har we're evil" is not the same thing. Though I do think this is hinting that, by the end, we will fundamentally alter how the Shadowlands works rather than resuming it to the system we started with, which we have established between this and Uther's cinematic has its fair share of problems even before Sylvanas started breaking things.

[VladlTutushkin]

We are not redeeming Sylvanas. Quote me on it.

Someone having motivations beyond "bwar har we're evil" is not the same thing. Though I do think this is hinting that, by the end, we will fundamentally alter how the Shadowlands works rather than resuming it to the system we started with, which we have established between this and Uther's cinematic has its fair share of problems even before Sylvanas started breaking things.

Uther IS the problem. Arguably he did more harm to the system then good and also more harm to people outside of it when he allowed his anger over Arthas to cloud the judgement of an Arbiter. He is the showcase of WHY Kyrians need to be clean, stripped of memories - so that kind of lynching of souls didnt happened. Imagine a horde soldier’s soul tasked to ferry an Alliance member... He would chuck poor sob into the Maw for sure.

[Coconut]

Ok, I think I figured out what their angle is with Sylvanas and her issue with the Shadowlands. I'm not sure I like it, it's based on a retcon and I don't really trust the writers to pull it off in a way that isn't cheesy, but it does seem to tie a few cinematics and stories together.

That child from the Warbringer cinematic? They will reveal that's her secret love child with Nathanos, and the "unjust system" either has to do with what happened to the child's soul, or with the fact that her soul couldn't go to the same afterlife. How it ties together with other story elements:

- In the Warbringer cinematic, Sylvanas says "Take her! Run!" to the elf with the child. Sounds more like something you would say to a caretaker concerning your own child than to a mother already trying to escape.
- It ties together better with the "You will soon join your loved ones" line. Now all family members go to the same place (even though it's horrible).
- It explains the hate towards life and hope a little bit better; at least it's a step ahead of teen angst. If she lost her child, the cycle of life failed her, she lost "hope" in a future generation. Her perception could be that this chain is always going to break at one point or another. It also explains why she was enraged when Delaryn naively stated that life always wins.
- It makes use of all the hints at a Sylvanas-Nathanos relationship without pushing their "love story" in the present (arguably, Nathanos himself might not even know or care about this love child).
- Living-Sylvanas acting maternal with Nathanos's young cousin in Dark Mirror could have been a hint that she was pregnant or wanted a child.
- It explains her "we can't even choose..." moment in the latest cinematic. "We can't even choose who we [spend eternity with]", when referring to a lost child, is less corny than when it refers to an arrogant undead lover boy.
- It ties in with her previous obsession about the Undead being unable to procreate.
- It makes Sylvanas more sympathetic at face value, and immediate emotional reaction is what the writers seem to be going for; it's unlikely that they would get people to sympathize with her if her motivation is abstract.

Of course, this would throw most of Edge of Night out the window, but that story already doesn't mesh well with Shadowlands lore. They could even retcon her motivation for seeking beings who can stop death from trying to live forever to trying to locate and bring back the child's soul.

[Super Dickmann]

Uther IS the problem. Arguably he did more harm to the system then good and also more harm to people outside of it when he allowed his anger over Arthas to cloud the judgement of an Arbiter. He is the showcase of WHY Kyrians need to be clean, stripped of memories - so that kind of lynching of souls didnt happened. Imagine a horde soldier’s soul tasked to ferry an Alliance member... He would chuck poor sob into the Maw for sure.

It's a weird case since there's actually some nuance to it as far as Blizzard writing goes. Playing through Bastion softened me a lot on the Kyrian since it only makes sense that you don't want people who can chuck you into super hell to be biased. On the other hand, Devos was cleared of all history and still went in the same direction as Uther, ditto Lysonia and bias will always have a role provided the kyrian keep the virtues that made them who they are. If a Kyrian, who's by nature a virtuous and heroic fellow, was going to collect the soul of say a serial killer taken out in the act and experienced what he did and how he felt great doing it, the temptation to chuck the dude into hell would be there for anyone who's not a robot. Keeping the memories though means that instead of a moral judgment, it's also a party political one. Teldrassil victim having to pick up one of the dudes on the catapults, or Stonespire tauren one of the dwarven riflemen can't exactly be trusted to ignore their personal thoughts and just bring them to the Arbiter and understandably so.

[bagina]

Uh-huh, then maybe send constructs to collect the souls, better yet, don't send guys who might have a personal history with the dead soul. That's how it should work. Judges don't need to be mind wiped to remain unbiased. Your Kyrians training should teach you self control, not wipe your mind. And like it was said, Devos still choose to disobey the system even after she got the wipe

Coaxing someone into self-harm (in this case mind wipe) is still shady as fuck, no matter how much the victim believes they want it.

Also, if they don't trust the Arbiter to make a fair judgement then maybe something's wrong with her? If every soul really got what they deserved then there wouldn't be a problem. Kyrians would know the wicked would go to the Maw anyway.

[Kumorii]

Uh-huh, then maybe send constructs to collect the souls, better yet, don't send guys who might have a personal history with the dead soul. That's how it should work. Judges don't need to be mind wiped to remain unbiased. Your Kyrians training should teach you self control, not wipe your mind. And like it was said, Devos still choose to disobey the system even after she got the wipe

Coaxing someone into self-harm (in this case mind wipe) is still shady as fuck, no matter how much the victim believes they want it.

Also, if they don't trust the Arbiter to make a fair judgement then maybe something's wrong with her? If every soul really got what they deserved then there wouldn't be a problem. Kyrians would know the wicked would go to the Maw anyway.

Kyrians are the true enemy. Disgusting practices.

[VladlTutushkin]

It's a weird case since there's actually some nuance to it as far as Blizzard writing goes. Playing through Bastion softened me a lot on the Kyrian since it only makes sense that you don't want people who can chuck you into super hell to be biased. On the other hand, Devos was cleared of all history and still went in the same direction as Uther, ditto Lysonia and bias will always have a role provided the kyrian keep the virtues that made them who they are. If a Kyrian, who's by nature a virtuous and heroic fellow, was going to collect the soul of say a serial killer taken out in the act and experienced what he did and how he felt great doing it, the temptation to chuck the dude into hell would be there for anyone who's not a robot. Keeping the memories though means that instead of a moral judgment, it's also a party political one. Teldrassil victim having to pick up one of the dudes on the catapults, or Stonespire tauren one of the dwarven riflemen can't exactly be trusted to ignore their personal thoughts and just bring them to the Arbiter and understandably so.

Devos is clearly an anomaly and she was influenced by Bluether. A rusted cog that broken in a machine so to say. Because until her and Bluether there were no disobedience or deviance there, no Forsworn and no hickups in soul delivery... Aside from sylvanas but that is most likely because Jailer plucked her soul from Azeroth so fast Kyrian wasnt even there yet.

- - - Updated - - -

Uh-huh, then maybe send constructs to collect the souls, better yet, don't send guys who might have a personal history with the dead soul. That's how it should work. Judges don't need to be mind wiped to remain unbiased. Your Kyrians training should teach you self control, not wipe your mind. And like it was said, Devos still choose to disobey the system even after she got the wipe

Coaxing someone into self-harm (in this case mind wipe) is still shady as fuck, no matter how much the victim believes they want it.

Also, if they don't trust the Arbiter to make a fair judgement then maybe something's wrong with her? If every soul really got what they deserved then there wouldn't be a problem. Kyrians would know the wicked would go to the Maw anyway.

Because by default almost NO SOULS go to the Maw. Its a 1% so to say. A smallest portion of souls so utterly evil, wicked and cruel that no amount of whipping in Revendreth will make them better or at least less destructive. A pure monsters of endless malice and evil. Arbiter judges most wicked souls to Revendreth where they receive an ass whooping and then go to other realms or stay there as "regulars".

[caervek]

Kyrians are the true enemy. Disgusting practices.

Indeed. I was pretty disgusted the whole way through the Kyrian part of the story and decided against picking them for covenant out of principle. I don't normally get reactive playing wow but this is the most vile questline I've been presented with since Cata and Alexstraza's ethnic cleansing chain.

[VladlTutushkin]

Indeed. I was pretty disgusted the whole way through the Kyrian part of the story and decided against picking them for covenant out of principle. I don't normally get reactive playing wow but this is the most vile questline I've been presented with since Cata and Alexstraza's ethnic cleansing chain.

If you play horde you might just choke on hypocrisy so prepare for a Heimlich maneuver.

[Varodoc]

Indeed. I was pretty disgusted the whole way through the Kyrian part of the story and decided against picking them for covenant out of principle. I don't normally get reactive playing wow but this is the most vile questline I've been presented with since Cata and Alexstraza's ethnic cleansing chain.

It's similar to the ethnic cleansing questline Sylvanas gave you in the BfA pre-patch too.

[bagina]

If you play horde you might just choke on hypocrisy so prepare for a Heimlich maneuver.

"B-B-BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HORDE"
Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference is the game wants you to treat the Kyrians as the good guys and assumes in advance you'd want to help them.

[MikeBogina]

So Sylvanas wants to destroy shadowlands, kill millions and have the jailer enslave us because the system is unfair. Sargeras wanted to destroy planets and enslave the survivors to save the universe from the void. sylvanas = sargeras

iirc Sargeras is using the legion and all this necessary evil to wipe out the entire universe and once it's done, he will then remake it into a paradise that the Void and probably the Light can't ever get into again. Only a small Legion members know of this, obviously Archimonde and KJ which makes more sense why they went along with this in the first place.

Now that we know that shadowlands is basically the other side of the coin to the physical universe, and the Jailer wants to basically destroy the system and remake it for the better, it could be that these 2 were in league and planned to remake the physical universe and the shadowlands together. If what the Jailer says is true to Sylvanas(going based off what she's said) then yeah him and Sargeras are basically Ends Justify the Means evil dudes, but with good intentions.

I think a lot of people are expecting the Jailer to betray sylvanas, or "Gotcha" but he seems to not look down at her as a minion, almost feels like how Sargeras and Archimonde/KJs relationship probably was, unlike how Azshara and N'zoth backstabbed each other.

So I would say Sylvanas = KJ, and drank the coolaid of Zovaal = Sargeras

[VladlTutushkin]

"B-B-BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HORDE"
Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference is the game wants you to treat the Kyrians as the good guys and assumes in advance you'd want to help them.

"B-B-BUT DONT BRING IN ARGUMENTS THAT MAKE MY OUTRAGE SOUND HYPOCRITICAL AND LAUGHABLE! ITS NO FAIR!"
All things are known in comparison, an old russian proverb which implies that you can only judge by comparing one act to another and that everything exists in context of other events.

- - - Updated - - -

iirc Sargeras is using the legion and all this necessary evil to wipe out the entire universe and once it's done, he will then remake it into a paradise that the Void and probably the Light can't ever get into again. Only a small Legion members know of this, obviously Archimonde and KJ which makes more sense why they went along with this in the first place.

Now that we know that shadowlands is basically the other side of the coin to the physical universe, and the Jailer wants to basically destroy the system and remake it for the better, it could be that these 2 were in league and planned to remake the physical universe and the shadowlands together. If what the Jailer says is true to Sylvanas(going based off what she's said) then yeah him and Sargeras are basically Ends Justify the Means evil dudes, but with good intentions.

I think a lot of people are expecting the Jailer to betray sylvanas, or "Gotcha" but he seems to not look down at her as a minion, almost feels like how Sargeras and Archimonde/KJs relationship probably was, unlike how Azshara and N'zoth backstabbed each other.

So I would say Sylvanas = KJ, and drank the coolaid of Zovaal = Sargeras

And you trust the Jailer to create a better, fairer and more liberal system when he takes over? And people criticize unwashed and uneducated peasants for buying into communists promising them all kinds of goodies if they start waving red flags...

[bagina]

"B-B-BUT DONT BRING IN ARGUMENTS THAT MAKE MY OUTRAGE SOUND HYPOCRITICAL AND LAUGHABLE! ITS NO FAIR!"
All things are known in comparison, an old russian proverb which implies that you can only judge by comparing one act to another.

Whataboutism is not an argument.

[Varodoc]

iirc Sargeras is using the legion and all this necessary evil to wipe out the entire universe and once it's done, he will then remake it into a paradise that the Void and probably the Light can't ever get into again. Only a small Legion members know of this, obviously Archimonde and KJ which makes more sense why they went along with this in the first place.

Now that we know that shadowlands is basically the other side of the coin to the physical universe, and the Jailer wants to basically destroy the system and remake it for the better, it could be that these 2 were in league and planned to remake the physical universe and the shadowlands together. If what the Jailer says is true to Sylvanas(going based off what she's said) then yeah him and Sargeras are basically Ends Justify the Means evil dudes, but with good intentions.

I think a lot of people are expecting the Jailer to betray sylvanas, or "Gotcha" but he seems to not look down at her as a minion, almost feels like how Sargeras and Archimonde/KJs relationship probably was, unlike how Azshara and N'zoth backstabbed each other.

So I would say Sylvanas = KJ, and drank the coolaid of Zovaal = Sargeras

The Jailer absolutely does not care about the freedom of mortals, since it's already been repeated many times that he is unambiguously evil and seeks to consume all of reality. He's blatantly manipulating Sylvanas.

Sargeras definitely saw Kil'jaeden as a pawn, I have no idea why you think he would see Kil'jaeden as equal. He literally tricked him into servitude by showing visions of a glorious future for the Burning Crusade.

[VladlTutushkin]

Whataboutism is not an argument.

Maybe in your perception. Ignoring context and surrounding events is wrong. Things dont exist in a vacuum, all events are tied to one another and influence one another.

[MikeBogina]

If you play horde you might just choke on hypocrisy so prepare for a Heimlich maneuver.

Alliance:
Garithos sentenced the blood elves to death
Daelin tried to wipe out all the orcs
The Alliance hunted down the forsaken(In a vision, Varian would have wiped out the Forsaken in the future)
Alliance forces hunting the Darkspear on their own island
Jaina and her racial purge of Dalaran

I mean hypocrisy amirite?

[VladlTutushkin]

Alliance:
Garithos sentenced the blood elves to death
Daelin tried to wipe out all the orcs
The Alliance hunted down the forsaken(In a vision, Varian would have wiped out the Forsaken in the future)
Alliance forces hunting the Darkspear on their own island
Jaina and her racial purge of Dalaran

I mean hypocrisy amirite?

I can break down those and either bring the reason for that from horde's own actions or disprove those but that thread is not about that. And anyway, i am not outraging about Kyrians unlike some here.

[bagina]

Maybe in your perception. Ignoring context and surrounding events is wrong. Things dont exist in a vacuum, all events are tied to one another and influence one another.

You still didn't give an argument. Other being bad doesn't make Kyrians good. The difference is the game never tried to portray others as good, but does so with Kyrians. You don't see the difference? Kyrians are free to be whatever they want, but don't force me to pretend they're the good guys or that they have the moral highground. Like helping them is the only correct thing to do.