Sylvannas is going to be Arthas did nothing wrong 2.0

[Varodoc]

come on now..... give me a break. it sounds like a debate from the 90's. "oh!! video games are bad, kids are killing people in a pixel world"... this is a phantasy game where people are proud to show their "bloodthirsty" or "death bringer" title. leave me alone with your "terrible message to the mass of kids who play this game". exept maybe a couple of nutjob, nobody's getting any "message" from this game.

People are proud to show those titles not because they can RP as bloodthirsty psychos, but because they put time and effort into obtaining those titles.

The story written by Blizzard (not Beuargh) never endorses the idea that you are a bloodthirsty psycho. In fact, it frowns upon bloodthirsty psychos. Garrosh is shown as the villain, Sylvanas is shown as the villain, etc. Ion went as far as to call the player character the "Hero", and a hero is not a bloodthirsty psycho. Blizzard never endorsed that. You can put in your TRP3 profile that you are a bloodthirsty cultist of Sargeras, but in Blizzard's story that will never be endorsed as a good quality.

And this is the same company that just removed the word "bitch" from the Cataclysm questline because they deemed it too toxic for children. They will NEVER insinuate that genocide can be good. Warcraft (like every single piece of fiction in the history of humanity) has a message to tell the audience, as it's been the case since forever. They are not going to tell the audience that genocide can be justified. They will never frame Sylvanas as "good" for committing genocide at Teldrassil. They have never framed genocide in a good way, and no story ever has really... for obvious reasons.

[Kaver]

Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal." (lous F.R)

And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..

The point concerning Arthas is that he was unconscious. His actions was performed by another entity. That cannot be compared to Sylvanas at all.

[shise]

Well, Arthas in fact did nothing wrong lol, he was corrupted.

Uther fucked up by leaving such a burden on him.. and well.. fact is, look where Uther is now.

[Raven]

Might be missing something since i havent leveled yet becouse of work and not bothered to watch any cinematic other then the one when she is talking to Anduin, but get more of a feeling of her wanting freedom for all aslong as they do what she wants, then true freedom for all.

[Vrinara]

Comparing Sylvanas to Arthas now are we? These forums don't change at all.

Arthas is a better written character then the mustache twirling, Cartoon Villain we have with Sylvanas. So don't compare the two.

Seriously, Why do people defend Sylvanas? Is it because of all the porn videos there are of her that some 40 year old virgin posted on Twitter? Don't "Sylvanas did nothing wrong" me. She committed Genocide on another race. Enslaved a fellow leader of the horde, nearly had him killed, and not to mentioned turned her soldiers into undead. People are delusional if they thing she did nothing wrong.

It's the same with Garrosh. Garrosh wanted to paint Pandaria with blood. He even says it in his cutscene. With his very odd looking Model. He enslaved citizens of Orgrimmar, even had Dark Shamans enslave the elements (Which is a crime against Nature) how people can say he did nothing wrong is Beyond me. While yeah I do blame thrall for Garrosh and even do have pity for Garrosh cause what he said during the duel was true.

A villain can have good intentions and still be evil. There is no redemption for Sylvanas. Now to plan who is next to become Garrosh v3.

[Arikara]

In WC3 Illidan massacred night elf villages that got in his way, nearly caused the end of the world, and willingly served Kil'jaeden to save his own skin. In BC Illidan enslaved the broken, destroyed thousands of Draenei souls in order to power his portal, and ordered the kidnapping and forced corruption of Mag'har into Fel orcs.

You're neglecting the portion where he did those things with the aim of beating Arthas and destroying the Lich King and to establish some way to fight back against the Legion. Also, while using the Eye of Sargeras would've definitely been really fucking bad, it would hardly have 'destroyed all of Azeroth'. That doesn't excuse what he did and does not make him deserving of 'redemption', but ultimately he didn't do any of it for his own sake—unlike Sylvanas.

Cata Sylvanas on the other hand destroyed a few human villages, resurrected the dead (though gave them a choice either to remain undead to return to death- which is more than the Fel Orcs got), and invaded Gilneas. None of this even comes close to nearly destroying all of Azeroth or consuming thousands of innocent souls like Illidan did at Auchidoun.

You forgot a thing or two concerning an attempted genocide

[Tharivor]

You're neglecting the portion where he did those things with the aim of beating Arthas and destroying the Lich King and to establish some way to fight back against the Legion. Also, while using the Eye of Sargeras would've definitely been really fucking bad, it would hardly have 'destroyed all of Azeroth'. That doesn't excuse what he did and does not make him deserving of 'redemption', but ultimately he didn't do any of it for his own sake—unlike Sylvanas.

The extent to which intention matters if the results are far worse is a matter of debate. And its Malfurion who says using the Eye on Icecrown would have destroyed Azeroth, but he may have been exaggerating. In any case I would say his most egregious offenses are those he committed in Outland- I imagine the consumed souls from Auchindoun alone outnumber Sylvanas' pre-BfA casualties, and that's even without the meta-horror of the fact that he destroyed their very souls.

You forgot a thing or two concerning an attempted genocide

Invading Gilneas is an attempted genocide now? I'm not sure chemically bombing a single city constitutes genocide, especially when most of the remaining civilians had already left. The daggers questline in Cata even indicates that there are still humans living in the area. Regardless of what word you use to describe it the invasion of Gilneas still don't come close to Illidan's atrocities.

[Powerogue]

But Arthas was doing the wrong thing, and we killed him for it.

So yeah.

[Soon-TM]

My hope is that his "redemption" is limited to him being a useful asset and then tossed back in Revendreth to be judged properly once all's said and done. He shouldn't be made the hero of the piece ala Illidan, that would be just too stupid. But the story is governed by hype more than by what makes sense, and players love Arthas, so Illidan 2.0 is absolutely not out of the question.

Oh, there can be little doubt at this point that we're absolutely getting an Illidan 2.0... The question is whether it is going to be Arthas or Sylvie. Both are looking like perfect candidates

[Maxilian]

I just want to have Sylvanas die by Tyrande, and before her death, have Tyrande compare her to Arthas, just to have Sylvanas point out, if that's true, that then Tyrande is just the new her (Sylvanas)

[bagina]

I just want to have Sylvanas die by Tyrande, and before her death, have Tyrande compare her to Arthas, just to have Sylvanas point out, if that's true, that then Tyrande is just the new her (Sylvanas)

I just want to see a badass full HD cinematic of them fighting, no holds barred. See Tyrande slap Sylvanas around a little. They'd win so many people back with that Oh boy!

[Soon-TM]

I just want to see a badass full HD cinematic of them fighting, no holds barred. See Tyrande slap Sylvanas around a little. They'd win so many people back with that Oh boy!

As cool as that would be, it wouldn't be complete without Malfie getting captured or tricked somehow

[eurojust]

You're neglecting the portion where he did those things with the aim of beating Arthas and destroying the Lich King and to establish some way to fight back against the Legion. Also, while using the Eye of Sargeras would've definitely been really fucking bad, it would hardly have 'destroyed all of Azeroth'. That doesn't excuse what he did and does not make him deserving of 'redemption', but ultimately he didn't do any of it for his own sake—unlike Sylvanas.

Illidan did this to help the Legion. Not because he personally wanted to kill the LK. He didn't care about it, and only went back to try killing him a second time because KJ threatened him.

[Dervrak]

God, I really hope they don't go the Illidan route and turn Sylvannas into some sort of anti-hero who was doing the right thing all along, but we were all just too dumb to realize it. If the final cut scene in Shadowlands has her and Tyrande hugging and Tyrande say, "I realize now why you had to destroy the world tree and kill all my people and I forgive you....."

Well I might just puke....

[bagina]

God, I really hope they don't go the Illidan route and turn Sylvannas into some sort of anti-hero who was doing the right thing all along, but we were all just too dumb to realize it. If the final cut scene in Shadowlands has her and Tyrande hugging and Tyrande say, "I realize now why you had to destroy the world tree and kill all my people and I forgive you....."

Well I might just puke....

When did something like that happen with Illidan? We don't have to choose between two extremes.

[loras]

People are proud to show those titles not because they can RP as bloodthirsty psychos, but because they put time and effort into obtaining those titles.

The story written by Blizzard (not Beuargh) never endorses the idea that you are a bloodthirsty psycho. In fact, it frowns upon bloodthirsty psychos. Garrosh is shown as the villain, Sylvanas is shown as the villain, etc. Ion went as far as to call the player character the "Hero", and a hero is not a bloodthirsty psycho. Blizzard never endorsed that. You can put in your TRP3 profile that you are a bloodthirsty cultist of Sargeras, but in Blizzard's story that will never be endorsed as a good quality.

And this is the same company that just removed the word "bitch" from the Cataclysm questline because they deemed it too toxic for children. They will NEVER insinuate that genocide can be good. Warcraft (like every single piece of fiction in the history of humanity) has a message to tell the audience, as it's been the case since forever. They are not going to tell the audience that genocide can be justified. They will never frame Sylvanas as "good" for committing genocide at Teldrassil. They have never framed genocide in a good way, and no story ever has really... for obvious reasons.

Hey, my female gnomelock, conquered orgrimmar and is evil and proud of it!
Also Private Parts, Salty Balls and various others say hi.
I think that in the end titles are a lot like transmogs, people just use what fits their character.

[Varodoc]

Hey, my female gnomelock, conquered orgrimmar and is evil and proud of it!
Also Private Parts, Salty Balls and various others say hi.
I think that in the end titles are a lot like transmogs, people just use what fits their character.

Blizzard also says Hi, and Ion literally said the PC is a hero.

That's quite fine, if you want to headcanon your PC as an evil psycho, that's your choice. Just know that Blizzard and their canon won't acknowledge it. And that's why we call it "headcanon".

I RP my Void elf character as a chaotic neutral/lawful "evil" individual. But I won't pretend that Blizzard HAS to abide by the rules that I set up for my PC. Ultimately, I realize that it's impossible for Blizzard to develop two branches in the storyline, one for "good" characters, and one for "neutral/selfish/evil" characters.

That's something that some people still haven't realized, after like 16 years. There are countless RPers in this game, and they RP their characters in a plethora of different ways, so you can't expect Blizzard to pander to every kind of moral alignment.

[loras]

Blizzard also says Hi, and Ion literally said the PC is a hero.

That's quite fine, if you want to headcanon your PC as an evil psycho, that's your choice. Just know that Blizzard and their canon won't acknowledge it. And that's why we call it "headcanon".

I RP my Void elf character as a chaotic neutral/lawful "evil" individual. But I won't pretend that Blizzard HAS to abide by the rules that I set up for my PC. Ultimately, I realize that it's impossible for Blizzard to develop two branches in the storyline, one for "good" characters, and one for "neutral/selfish/evil" characters.

That's something that some people still haven't realized, after like 16 years. There are countless RPers in this game, and they RP their characters in a plethora of different ways, so you can't expect Blizzard to pander to every kind of moral alignment.

Don't worry, i know. It's mostly as an auto taunt to horde players in normal battlegrounds. I tend to mog her into looking like someone wearing shabby greens and then watch as they get annoyed by the endless squaks of a gnome being hit without dying, all the while dancing and cursing around.
It's the greatest.

As to the rest: most of my characters are neutral ish, though i've recently made an undead lock titled "the Beloved" that's going to pick all the wrong options whenever possible.

[MikeBogina]

Gotta love some people bending over backwards trying to whitewash Arthas and downplay the number of his crimes, claiming he's "not as bad as Sylvanas!". Just say you hate female characters beating your precious Bolvars and be done with it. Just a simple fact that Arthas was THE ONE who created Sylvanas the banshee, the warped undead, makes him indirectly responsible for every evil shit she's committed. On top of his own crimes.

DK Arthas created Sylvanas
DK Arthas =/= Real Arthas

I've been arguing this for years now, 11 exactly on this site and nothing to do with Sylvanas, but Arthas besides what he did in life, wasn't in control as a DK, it wasn't him but some kind of "Shade" in control, like Akama or even more recently like corrupted Ysera. I used to call it Frostmourne Arthas tbh lol
I also think that this "Shade" applies to other characters aswell, like the Death Knights are all twisted, despite some being honorable people in life(Bolvar has you slaughter so many) and I think this applies to Sylvanas and others aswell. Sylvanas' "Shade" was never "welcome to the team!" like others but was tormented by this Arthas. DK Darion was loyal af to Arthas until he learned Arthas was throwing his life away, not because he was broke from this evil control with some light powers.

So yeah, Arthas and Sylvanas did nothing wrong. DK Arthas and Banshee Sylvanas did a lot wrong.

[loras]

DK Arthas created Sylvanas
DK Arthas =/= Real Arthas

I've been arguing this for years now, 11 exactly on this site and nothing to do with Sylvanas, but Arthas besides what he did in life, wasn't in control as a DK, it wasn't him but some kind of "Shade" in control, like Akama or even more recently like corrupted Ysera. I used to call it Frostmourne Arthas tbh lol
I also think that this "Shade" applies to other characters aswell, like the Death Knights are all twisted, despite some being honorable people in life(Bolvar has you slaughter so many) and I think this applies to Sylvanas and others aswell. Sylvanas' "Shade" was never "welcome to the team!" like others but was tormented by this Arthas. DK Darion was loyal af to Arthas until he learned Arthas was throwing his life away, not because he was broke from this evil control with some light powers.

So yeah, Arthas and Sylvanas did nothing wrong. DK Arthas and Banshee Sylvanas did a lot wrong.

It's almost like they're dead to you.