Does the Kyrian covenant story make them any less horrendous?

[Jessicka]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.

[Nagawithlegs]

If you play the Spires of Ascension dungeon you can find that the Archon already questions it.

But no they don't revert it throughout the entire launch campaign. It's pretty obvious they will though.

[BrintoSFJ]

What people don't want to understand is that : it is DEATH! Dead things have no choice! Their choices are made by death dealers like Kyrians or Necrolords and the like. They didn't even have choice in life as to how they would die, what makes you think that they would have choice after death? Sylavanas is blindly believing that Jailer is trying to give everyone choice but we all know how it is going to end up. Things with power never allow weaker things to have actual meaningful choices. That is what it is. All in all, whether it is living or dead, they have no choice about how they are treated in life and death! Period!

[VinceVega]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.

That is the whole point of the campaign. Also: Only peopel with a high sense of honor, selflessness and willingness to serv for the greater good are send there.
They don't just roll a dice to where you go in your afterlive. But i guess you have too read the story for it and i am no going to tell it to you. It is there in the game.

And a whole lot more we don't know yet.

[ymirsson]

Sacrifice over individuality, a concept that is the antithesis to modern political correctness, even though it means no inherent evil for the community as a whole.

[Gaidax]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.

Oh don't worry, I did their covenant campaign in Beta and what you said is only scratching a surface.

They are the real evil player faction of Shlands.

[LedZeppelin]

they shuttle the souls between the living and the dead. it is important for them to remain unbiased hence giving up their past life/personality

[Sondrelk]

The reason for Kyrians being mind-wiped is clearly shown as the right thing when Uther threw Arthas into the Maw, potentially starting the process of freeing the Jailer.

Only the truly selfless go to Bastion, with an infinite amount of afterlives tailored to those who are not willing to make those sacrifices. Even with that Bastion does fully explain why it is needed, Kyrians are given massive amounts of power over life and death, and this kind of power could easily be abused if someone decides that they rather think someone deserves to go to Revendreth or even the Maw, or vice versa.

[CalamityHeart]

The short answer is yes.

The slightly longer answer is that the story direction for Bastion, the Kyrians, and the Forsworn, is pretty easy to take a guess at. It's not a particularly original story arc that they seem to be moving towards. It's not particularly surprising either. And it's not particularly... offensive.

I mean, you're free to think what you will. It's quite clear that there's no real "good guy" in Bastion, as far as how it operates. The Kyrians mean well, but their tenets are somewhat dubious, and the Archon's blind self-righteousness is what caused this. The Forsworn are justified in their skepticism of those tenets, but their rebellion is malicious, because Devos felt they had no other option. But there's... nothing sensitive or "horrendously offensive" about this storyline, or what it's shaping up to turn into.

[shoc]

Bastion is still a part of hell, it isn't exactly a heaven. By being mind-wiped the dead are literally denied a paradise afterlife which sounds like a very special hell indeed. Without this one characterization, it's an implication-free paradise where everything is great.

[bledgor]

? They weren't horrendous in the first place, they were a people of self-sacrifice that gave up their memories in order to perform an important tasks to the very functions of the realm of death, just because it seems foreign to us doesn't make it wrong, or not necessary. Uther already proved the fuck ups that can occur when you don't do what they do. I see them as the prime example of a necessary evil (and the evil part is very much debatable to me).

[Toppy]

The reason for Kyrians being mind-wiped is clearly shown as the right thing when Uther threw Arthas into the Maw, potentially starting the process of freeing the Jailer.

Only the truly selfless go to Bastion, with an infinite amount of afterlives tailored to those who are not willing to make those sacrifices. Even with that Bastion does fully explain why it is needed, Kyrians are given massive amounts of power over life and death, and this kind of power could easily be abused if someone decides that they rather think someone deserves to go to Revendreth or even the Maw, or vice versa.

Except a mind wiped Kyrian did that. The only way that the mind wipes would be justified in this scenario is if they happened constantly.

- - - Updated - - -

Bastion is still a part of hell, it isn't exactly a heaven. By being mind-wiped the dead are literally denied a paradise afterlife which sounds like a very special hell indeed. Without this one characterization, it's an implication-free paradise where everything is great.

The four places we have now arent "hells" they are "Afterlives" the only straight up hell is the Maw.

[Tharivor]

I don't know- I was actually thinking the Kyrian position is more reasonable than it first seems. I mean these people are dead. Their memories of their families are just that- memories with no bearing on their present existence. The Arbiter doesn't allow for reunions- once you're in Bastion there is no chance of you ever meeting any of those people ever again unless they happen to get sent there as well, which is a rather minimal chance. Those memories are therefore functionally meaningless at this point, more a memory of a past life rather than something relevant to your new one.

In light of this the Kyrian position does make some sense. You are bound to a new duty that requires complete impartiality: so retaining those memories is not only obsolete but also dangerous, as it increases the temptation you might use your new powers in order to try and re-establish contact or favour them in some way.

Were it not for just how painful the cleansing is and the fact that thanks to the Arbiter its not really consensual (I mean yes the Kyrians don't force you to ascend, but once the Arbiter assigns you to Bastion there isn't really any other path open to you unless you want to spend the rest of eternity as a bored aspirant), I don't think it would really be immoral. Its basically a kind of reincarnation except the memory loss doesn't happen automatically.

[Rendark]

If i had to pick between being a brainwashed slave or anything else, i would pick anything else.

[Nerovar]

Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.

Consider this: they knew that every soul went directly into the Maw (the worst punishment a soul can seemingly get in this universe) because the Arbiter broke in Legion and they still decided to throw them into the stream straight into hell because "it's their duty after all". They literally threw hundreds if not thousands of innocent children into this universe's equivalent of hell without even thinking about it.

[RyanEX]

If i had to pick between being a brainwashed slave or anything else, i would pick anything else.

You aren't brainwashed, get it right. You have your memories of what you were while alive erased, but beyond that you're mind and will is your own as seen by those two bickering over whether it's better to have flying lions or robot cats.

And when you take into account their role in the Shadowlands it makes sense. If George over there ended up having to ferry Jim who was the guy that bullied him while young to the afterlife he'd probably just dump him in the Maw as revenge regardless of if Jim regretted acting like an ass while 10 years old and had lived an exemplary life since then.

[Masternap]

I don't see the problem with wiping everyone's memories. You don't remember anything afterwards anyway, so who cares?

[Rendark]

You aren't brainwashed, get it right. You have your memories of what you were while alive erased, but beyond that you're mind and will is your own as seen by those two bickering over whether it's better to have flying lions or robot cats.

And when you take into account their role in the Shadowlands it makes sense. If George over there ended up having to ferry Jim who was the guy that bullied him while young to the afterlife he'd probably just dump him in the Maw as revenge regardless of if Jim regretted acting like an ass while 10 years old and had lived an exemplary life since then.

Sounds like brainwashing to me. Memories help make who you are.

[Sondrelk]

Except a mind wiped Kyrian did that. The only way that the mind wipes would be justified in this scenario is if they happened constantly.

- - - Updated - - -



The four places we have now arent "hells" they are "Afterlives" the only straight up hell is the Maw.

It was done by a partially mindwiped Uther after Devos looked at the memory and decided to overstep her bounds.

If a single memory can change someones mind like that then imagine what would happen if you had loads of Kyrians idly deciding to strike out and punish those they deem unworthy with essentially no oversight, it would likely lead to a war within the Shadowlands as the Kyrians could decide what realms prospered.

It's very simple really, memories leads to unequal treatment.

Someone pointed it out very succinctly in a different thread. What if a mother became a Kyrian and decided to punish all who killed a child, or sent all children to a place they did not deserve. What if a good person allowed a memory of being tortured by someone lead him to condemn all similar people to Revendreth, or worse the Maw.
They explain it perfectly well in Bastion. They are not meant to judge, instead simply taking souls to the Arbiter for judgment, memories could impede that, which could be devastating when it comes to those as powerful as the Kyrian.

[voidox]

I mean, there are legit reasons for why kyrians need to lose their memories as the ferrying job requires impartiality to work. You can't have any personal bias taint your decision or task while dealing with souls.

though why do the rest of kyrians need to also lose their memories when their job doesn't handle souls, like the guards or whoever.

so ya, archon after spires saying "kyrians need to talk" which will lead to some changes, I assume the ones who have to actually ferry the souls will still require the sacrifice, but the rest could keep their memories if they want to. I'm sure some don't care for memories seeing as this is the afterlife and those memories don't really matter.