Shadowlands Plothole?

[razorpax]

Well we do know that Argus soul is unlikely to be in the Shadowlands, as the Titans are supposed to have their own afterlife, just like demons....

But i have heard people say that he was not a full titan so that may have affected its afterlife (i doubt it)

We have never seen a titan die for real
Argus is a complete unknown

[Nerovar]

So, I just watched the cinematic in which the Winter Queen and the Archon learn of Denathrius' betrayal. Can someone explain to me why the leader of the Kyrians is surprised that the Maw is growing when her blue bloys were literally yeeting every single soul in there for years now? How can the leader of a major faction of immortal beings be this retarded?

[Soon-TM]

So, I just watched the cinematic in which the Winter Queen and the Archon learn of Denathrius' betrayal. Can someone explain to me why the leader of the Kyrians is surprised that the Maw is growing when her blue bloys were literally yeeting every single soul in there for years now? How can the leader of a major faction of immortal beings be this retarded?

To be fair, we don't know whether Bluther and/or Devos have had predecessors/imitators. But given how there seems to be a sizeable amount of Forsworn, it is safe to assume that this Archon gal is barely aware about what (some of) her subordinates are doing.

[zaxlor]

I still maintain that ACTI/BLIZZ EXECS are naughty little thieves and MONEY don't belong to them by default. As we've seen before, other GAME PUBLISHERS are also capable of taking the MONEY away. Basically, it's free real estate for whoever's the fastest. It's a constant battle for your MONEY. How poetic.

Was this what you were eluding with that post? Kappa

[Crillam]

we've seen Sargeras, from the space, plant his bigass sword in the planet and there was no glass bubble around azeroth.

It's in another dimension that we shouldn't be able to see or interact with. However with the helm breaking we gained access to this new dimension. Kinda like the 4th dimension we humans are theorising about. Something that is there but we have no way of sensing it.

Also about that the Legion created the helm, it have been changed/retconned. The helm was crafted by the Runecarver and then the Dreadlords either stole it or got it from the Shadowlands thanks (probably) to Sire Denathrius who is A or maybe is THE Dreadlord. I agree that there are some major plotholes. But these are things that actually are explained pretty well.

[bagina]

Was this what you were eluding with that post? Kappa

LMAOOO I love this

[baskev]

I was just wondering how bolvar is raising death knights (I.e Allied races) if every soul is stuck in the Maw

Didnt every soul go straight into the maw after Sylvanas made the pact with the jailer/Helya in legion? Does Bolvar have the ability to just pull people out of the shadowlands at command? What happened to no one escapes the maw

We do not know when it happend during legion. It says it happend during that time. And a big red thingie hit the arberiter. But we do not know when it happend. So thats the first problem.

I think the lich king borrows the souls from the jailor. Its clearly stated that the helm of domination had a master ( think jailor). And jailor wanted more people fed into his maw. So giving the lich king 1000 souls, so he can kill a 10.000 more is a good deal for the jailor. So i think he let them free.

So no plot hole here.

Also, doesent technically all death knights and undead remember the shadowlands? Why is it being treated as a mystery?

No, clearly it shows in several zones people do not know what is happening when they die. Hell even druid souls get reborn from it. So maybe it delete's the memory. Or they are not awake during the time.

Minor plot hole here.

The Entire Sylvanas Jailer plot just doesen't make sense to me. So the Jailer draws souls from the entire universe, but where exactly does Sylvanas fit in? If millions/Billions are dying every day across the stars, what kind of significance does burning teldrassil even have? Hundreds of thousand lives lost is basically a drop in the ocean compared to the billions across the star. Not to talk about Old gods and burning legion battling it out and burning/corrupting worlds killing further millions. Teldrassil just seems so insignifcant on a galactic scale, how in the world was that enough to break the jailer free?

He did not. he got a very small portion. The rest got a chance to redeem themselves or find a new way of afterlife.
Sylvanas fed him more souls. Maybe other worlds are peacefull, and extra souls from all the death around WoW feeds him more. And its clearly shown, what ever broke the arbiter. Cam with all the other souls from the living side.

as for teldrassil: before the jailor get 99% or 100% of all the souls. Only a very small fraction went to him.
After all of it went to him only normal deaths and some minor battles etc would feed him. If he wanted to make sure arbiter did not wake up or primus or someone responded. He needs power fast. easy way is just to do a mass murder to feed the start of this plan.

We do not know what happens to old god victims or legion victims. Seeing as void and death are not a best of terms i guess that they stop them. And the legion used all of the death to fuel their ...legion. and all the legions deaths just get reborn.

No plot hole here.

Speaking of souls, then what are wisps or any ghosts for that matter? Have they escaped the shadowlands? The Elven spirits in dire maul or the ghosts of Karazhan, has there been any explaination?

ty

Wisps? maybe souls that have not excepted their deaths. Or souls on the way to be reborn or blizzard forget them.

So minor plothole here.



Think you ask some fair questions. But some are also easy to answer. For me the things that stand out the most of your response are:

- what are undead souls ( wisps , diremaul etc) how are they here.
- why do people not know off the shadowlands.

[huth]

- why do people not know off the shadowlands.

Was answered in one of the recent interviews. You don't keep the knowledge when you get called back to the mortal realm.

Wisps just never go to the Shadowlands in the first place. Same for ghosts(not counting those forced back by Necromancy).

Keep in mind that transfer to the Shadowlands is not automatic; that's the entire reason the Kyrian exist to begin with.

And its clearly shown, what ever broke the arbiter. Cam with all the other souls from the living side.

Actually, it's pretty visible that it didn't. The trajectory doesn't match the normal stream of souls, suggesting that it's coming from somewhere else. Given what else we learn, Denathrius seems the most likely culprit.

[Dimmak]

Its like people don't read all the quests or something. The shadowlands holds tons of qorlds just like the twisting nether. And I suspect they touch but that's a different discussion.

As far as the four realms , 6 if you count Oribos and the Maw, being the only ones we see is most likely because the five first ones created them. They flatly tell you their pantheon is broken and the jailed the 5th sibling. Oribos is a giant machine that divvie up the souls to worlds most compatible. The existence of the brokers and their side talk point towars other soul engines elsewhere. They bring goods between them and are traversing them without the Oribos conduits.

I suspect the brokers keep this navigation technique a secret because its immensely profitable.

The long story short is our universe's Oribos death engine is broken and cannot send souls to thei normal shadowlands. Our Oribos is pulling the souls from our universe, Azeroth, Draenor, and Argus etc... We're only seeing a small part of our Shadowland region because we're basically not suppose to access it in the first place.

Also note that the Kyrian are not the only ones ferrying souls. Bwonsamdi makes packs with troll bloodlines to take their souls. Helya steal souls into her titan realm but is really copying what Odyn is doing with his Vyrkul. Even the night elf wisps are explained in lore that they are tied to the world trees and despite Telldrasil being burned there are still several world trees on azeroth.

When the Lich King raised Death Knights they had the helm of Nerhzul, helm of domination, which we now know is using tech and or magic from the Maw. We know the shadow forces attacked Maldraxus and the Light attacked Venthyr. The cosmic beings are clearly trading souls as fuel and Azeroth just happens to be the center point.

I haven't actually found any potholes when you look at everything.

[Whitedragon]

It's because you dying is not canon. It's just a game mechanic, like being able to resurrect people. It's a game mechanic, not a canon part of the game.

That last little bit isn't wholly true, reresection dose actually exist in lore. Though I do believe its much herder to accomplish them in game would have you believe.

[Saltysquidoon]

Resurrection is absolutely canon. It happens in WCIII, the shrines exist in wow and the belf priest casts it in the TBC cinematic. I would say the method of just some random running back to their corpse is probably non-canon though.
That said PC's have died and been resurrected in raid encounters in WoW (Arthas and Argus spring to mind), so PCs having died and been resurrected is also canon.

[Soon-TM]

Resurrection is absolutely canon. It happens in WCIII, the shrines exist in wow and the belf priest casts it in the TBC cinematic. I would say the method of just some random running back to their corpse is probably non-canon though.
That said PC's have died and been resurrected in raid encounters in WoW (Arthas and Argus spring to mind), so PCs having died and been resurrected is also canon.

It is canon, sure, but it certainly is a lot harder than what gameplay would have you assume. Liadrin or Hamuul Runetotem didn't even attempt to resurrect Vol'jin, their freaking Warchief. Genn evidently was a dick when he buried his son instead of trying to resurrect him. Or maybe there wasn't a single Priest or Druid nearby, who knows.

As a matter of fact, the only two canonical resurrections are those from the ICC and Antorus raids, as you pointed.

[benting]

So, I just watched the cinematic in which the Winter Queen and the Archon learn of Denathrius' betrayal. Can someone explain to me why the leader of the Kyrians is surprised that the Maw is growing when her blue bloys were literally yeeting every single soul in there for years now? How can the leader of a major faction of immortal beings be this retarded?

In the Spires of Ascension, Devos refers to the 'impotent Arbiter'. It is at least the case that the Kyrian leader knew of the Aribiter, but maybe not others. I think its explained by the fact that they are just devoted to bringing souls and not to question it. The reason that there are so many fallen Kyrian is that many are questioning it now.

[Otaka]

So, I just watched the cinematic in which the Winter Queen and the Archon learn of Denathrius' betrayal. Can someone explain to me why the leader of the Kyrians is surprised that the Maw is growing when her blue bloys were literally yeeting every single soul in there for years now? How can the leader of a major faction of immortal beings be this retarded?

Youre assuming too much.
Before this expansion how do you think souls went into shadowlands? it wasnt exactly as easy as enter a portal in orgrimmar/stormwind. Valkyr also exist on azeroth and they take souls into the halls of valor so not all souls end up in shadowlands.

Youre also assuming every kyrian knows everything... youve fallen into the classic hole: you as a player know everything therefor all npcs know aswell. Thats not the case... not everyone knows the arbiter was down and do we even know how they transport souls? maybe its a bit of a longer process than just blink into azeroth and blink back.
Since shadowlands is the place where majority of the souls in the cosmos go theres surely more kyrian than we can ever see in the bastion, its like a transportation company: only a few are at a desk in the office while the rest are drivers going around transporting stuff. Bastion being the desk in this case.

[Nerovar]

In the Spires of Ascension, Devos refers to the 'impotent Arbiter'. It is at least the case that the Kyrian leader knew of the Aribiter, but maybe not others. I think its explained by the fact that they are just devoted to bringing souls and not to question it. The reason that there are so many fallen Kyrian is that many are questioning it now.

That doesn't make any sense. How would they not know? Their job is to bring the souls before the Arbiter but they can't see that she's "sleeping" and the giant stream of souls heading exclusively into the maw?

Youre assuming too much.
Before this expansion how do you think souls went into shadowlands? it wasnt exactly as easy as enter a portal in orgrimmar/stormwind. Valkyr also exist on azeroth and they take souls into the halls of valor so not all souls end up in shadowlands.

Youre also assuming every kyrian knows everything... youve fallen into the classic hole: you as a player know everything therefor all npcs know aswell. Thats not the case... not everyone knows the arbiter was down and do we even know how they transport souls? maybe its a bit of a longer process than just blink into azeroth and blink back.
Since shadowlands is the place where majority of the souls in the cosmos go theres surely more kyrian than we can ever see in the bastion, its like a transportation company: only a few are at a desk in the office while the rest are drivers going around transporting stuff. Bastion being the desk in this case.

The only things I'm assuming are the things that are clearly visible and knowable.
A) Kyrians bring souls before the Arbiter (Our mission is one to service -- carrying souls to Oribos and placing them before the Arbiter.)
B) Arbiter is clearly defunct
C) The big stream of Souls goes straight into the Maw

[tommyhil622]

Have you seen any Kyrians flying above Oribos?

[huth]

That last little bit isn't wholly true, reresection dose actually exist in lore. Though I do believe its much herder to accomplish them in game would have you believe.

You could probably count the total cases of true resurrection in known lore on one hand, outside of beings that have self-resurrection as an explicit ability like Demons.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you seen any Kyrians flying above Oribos?

I don't think they're doing it by physically carrying them there. More like collecting and then putting them on a soul conveyor.

[Nerovar]

Have you seen any Kyrians flying above Oribos?

I literally gave the quote from the game.

[huth]

I literally gave the quote from the game.

And you're taking it far to literally. Their job is to send them there. Not physically carry them there. Given how many souls there appear to be arriving every second, all the Kyrians would just cause a massive traffic jam.

[Nerovar]

And you're taking it far to literally. Their job is to send them there. Not physically carry them there. Given how many souls there appear to be arriving every second, all the Kyrians would just cause a massive traffic jam.

This does in no way relate to my original comment. Whether they physically hurl them over to Oribos or put them on Reichsbahn trains heading straight into the Maw is a completely meaningless distinction. What matters is the role they play and the unquestioning nature in which they fulfill their function in condemning thousands/millions (who knows) of innocent of souls to suffer inside the Maw.