Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
LastLast
  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    You said they raided heroic only once, which obviously is not true. Hard to admit you were wrong or what?

    I also don't know why you're talking about the number of mythic dungeons because it has absolutely nothing to do with your claim.
    I thought we were talking about gearing for mythic raiding. Good mythic raiders get 1 heroic raid, or 2. They do a significant amount of mythic dungeons. That's problematic. That's my claim.

    It's that mythic dungeons are a huge loot source for mythic raids. It's literally my only claim. Not sure how you missed that.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If one is lower than the other you would just use the other to out-gear the other.

    People who prefer M+ would feel forced to raid to out-gear M+.
    People who prefer raiding would feel forced to M+ to out-gear raids.

    If they provide the same gear they can focus on their own activity. It would probably be better if the gear were comparable.
    Theres a few flaws on that logic, cause it's also rate at which you get the gear and the difficulty to organise.
    So, something's got to give. This design makes sense.
    An alternative design would be for mythic+ to have a weekly lockout and drop no loot until the weekly chest where it would drop a number of loot equivalent to the challenge. In short, it would get convoluted.

    This design is a good compromise.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    I thought we were talking about gearing for mythic raiding. Good mythic raiders get 1 heroic raid, or 2. They do a significant amount of mythic dungeons. That's problematic. That's my claim.

    It's that mythic dungeons are a huge loot source for mythic raids. It's literally my only claim. Not sure how you missed that.
    I was talking about mythic raids. And TOP mythic raiders clear heroic more than once, I even provided you YouTube link where world #1 raider said they clear heroic SEVERAL times.

    You said there is no incentive to clear it more than once, so why top guild clears it many times? Not sure how you manage to miss the fault with your claim.

    But I completely agree that the m+ spam was problematic. The loot needs to be somehow limited if it provides better rewards than HC.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Theres a few flaws on that logic, cause it's also rate at which you get the gear and the difficulty to organise.
    So, something's got to give. This design makes sense.
    An alternative design would be for mythic+ to have a weekly lockout and drop no loot until the weekly chest where it would drop a number of loot equivalent to the challenge. In short, it would get convoluted.

    This design is a good compromise.
    I think that (only having loot appear at the end of a week all at once) would just feel bad. Having to wait to get all your loot at the end of the week would make raiding feel like the only fast way to get gear. It would feel mandatory for M+ players. Do your raids first, THEN go do M+ is what the logic would be (also punishing for people who would rather raid later in the week, right). It also presents of problem of you won't have any idea if you got your loot on your 10th run of the week or your 30th run of the week, and so people would burn themselves out trying to get as many runs in all their dungeons as possible trying to get as many upgrades in that weekly chest as possible - compared to perhaps live where people can temper themselves once in a while when they get a piece of loot they've been after and are placated. And understandably when people get their ideal upgrade for a dungeon they move onto the next one -- but under this system they would just keep grinding that dungeon because they wouldn't know if they got it yet or not so just to be safe let's keep grinding this one dungeon over and over and over again to make sure they got their weapons or trinkets or whatever is the best upgrade.

    This could lead to not only a lot of burnout but also a lot of repetition in terms of focusing one dungeon beyond what they were previously where natural drops were telling them now they're ready to move onto the next item at a different place - that you can do something else now. And again, consider at the same time people feel forced to do raids first to get loot off bosses the normal way faster -- people who don't like to raid would feel burnout not only from having to raid, but also M+ their preferred activity starts to feel worse because all of a sudden it isn't dropping loot normally like literally every other source of loot in the game dropping off bosses as things should. Plus, M+ wouldn't have bonus loot from the chest, only what you would have normally gotten - meanwhile raiding would get extra loot from its chest in addition to getting immediate boss drop rewards. You can see how unfair this seems by comparison. I don't think this situation of all loot all at once for M+ in the chest would be very good, ultimately. I think it just increases the hostilities between M+ and Raiding and it makes the differences worse. Currently, Raiding and M+ are only really so different in much less minor ways and I think for now I have trouble seeing how this could be better.

  5. #225
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Orgrimmar
    Posts
    20,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It'll take longer than the current patch is, well current to gear up in dungeons though. Mythic raids will still just take you a few weeks.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it won't and it sure as heck won't take 20+ weeks as it would in dungeons and thats IF you're lucky enough.
    You might very well get just bracers every week from the random lottery.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, dungeons drop are not the same as mythic gear and yes you do get 233 from raids as well.
    That is the point. You either raid or you play something else. It has nothing to do with "welfare", It's not like raids are harder than dungeons.

    That was the point of all this: Dungeons are dead as rewarding content. That you don't like M+ has nothing to do with it.
    There will be 30 pieces of gear dropped in each Mythic raid. There are 20 people. On average a player will get 1.5 pieces of loot a week. Even with lucky weekly vaults the earliest the entire raid would be geared in full mythic raiding gear is about 2.5 months. Probably more like 3-4 months until everyone has their full BIS. Mythic+/heroic raid gear and The weekly vault will not be pointless for even the best players until the next raid is nearly out.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If one is lower than the other you would just use the other to out-gear the other.

    People who prefer M+ would feel forced to raid to out-gear M+.
    People who prefer raiding would feel forced to M+ to out-gear raids.

    If they provide the same gear they can focus on their own activity. It would probably be better if the gear were comparable.
    Indeed. I would also like if you could get mythic raid ilvl in m+. Like, m+20 or something. Only need a 15 to max weekly but up to +20 you can still upgrade yourself.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    I was talking about mythic raids. And TOP mythic raiders clear heroic more than once, I even provided you YouTube link where world #1 raider said they clear heroic SEVERAL times.

    You said there is no incentive to clear it more than once, so why top guild clears it many times? Not sure how you manage to miss the fault with your claim.

    But I completely agree that the m+ spam was problematic. The loot needs to be somehow limited if it provides better rewards than HC.
    It's irrelevant how many times heroic is "cleared." What's relevant is how many times they get loot from a source. The answer for heroic raiding is one. The answer for mythic dungeons is up to infinity.

    There's no gear incentive to clear it more. We are talking about gearing. You can only clear heroic once. Not sure how you don't understand this. They clear mythic dungeons multiple times, and can receive infinite loot. The conversation is about where gear comes from, and the answer is mythic dungeons. That's problematic.
    Last edited by Jonnusthegreat; 2020-11-30 at 02:57 PM.

  8. #228
    Be glad you have that. Many, including myself, would have preferred Mythic+ to become just like challenge mode in MoP - just rewarding cosmetic gear, realm first titles for each season and dungeon. No actual loot.

  9. #229
    Get rid of gear entirely from M+ except from a weekly cache if you want same rewards of raiding (which also has a weekly lockout). Bet the same people wanting to grind out best gear in a week from m+ would cry foul.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except it would only be "textbook" confirmation bias if I fully believed that a third spec was actually coming.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    Be glad you have that. Many, including myself, would have preferred Mythic+ to become just like challenge mode in MoP - just rewarding cosmetic gear, realm first titles for each season and dungeon. No actual loot.
    I don't see why it can't be both. I wouldn't mind the challenge mode rewards making a return. Cap out M+ for gear and give cosmetic rewards for going even higher.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #231
    Remember those chests you would get from the sometimes weekly complete 5 dungeons quest? The best case scenario for me would be if they started selling those in the blizz store (especially if the chest was mythic version) . I love RnG boxes and to be able to purchase gear or progression instantly instead of all the waiting that comes into raiding, Dungeons & weekly resets.

    I've already played another game with such a system for years, and it would be a dream if blizz would implement that in WoW as well.

    Awsome signature and avatar made by Kuragalolz

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Honestly past the world first and the Mythic + invitationals I can't tell you either one, because both are pretty boring to look at for the common joe. As I said in the last post dose anyone really care after someone gets the first kill for raiding, and likewise dose anyone give a dang after the mythic dungeon invitational is over? Yes I can probably tell you who got world first and second in raiding, likewise I can probably tell you who was leading Mythic + during the event months ago but ask me anything now and it goes into the *shrug* folder...

    Past that It really comes down to what people play and what has more representation, and on the note of this topic, it's one thing to have a lower I level then mythic, it's another to have a lower I level then heroic which absolutely no one cares about competitively....
    Compare twitch viewers between both events and the answer is obvious. The Mythic world first was bigger and wasn't even sponsored by Blizzard.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Top raiders clear heroic raids multiple times on their alts, not the same toon every time c'mon...

    You can only get loot from a source once a week, don't matter how many times you kill it.
    Well no shit mister obvious, that's some valuable input

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    By this standard, no mythic raider would ever set foot in heroic except to learn fights. The primary gearing method would be the dungeons. That's problematic.
    Why would that be an issue...?

  15. #235
    Conduits are a huge reason to spam M+, raid doesn't drop potency conduits at all. Outside of buying upgrades with Stygia only way to get 213 ilvl potency conduits is from M+.

    Also M+ ilvl is only 3 below heroic, which is very minor considering you can still spam it infinitely to get perfect stats + sockets on gear making it better than heroic gear.

    +25s should not give Mythic gear like some have said unless there is weekly lockout on amount of that gear. Infinite max ilvl gear is bad. How is it fun to be maxed out in BiS in 1-2 weeks? We already had a huge problem in legion with gearing basically hitting huge plateau 2 weeks after Mythic raid came out, because you were decked from raids dropping so much loot+coins+TFing in M+. Its not good for the game when gearing process is so fast.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewalrus2010 View Post
    Why would that be an issue...?
    Because in my opinion it's stupid.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I think that (only having loot appear at the end of a week all at once) would just feel bad. Having to wait to get all your loot at the end of the week would make raiding feel like the only fast way to get gear. It would feel mandatory for M+ players. Do your raids first, THEN go do M+ is what the logic would be (also punishing for people who would rather raid later in the week, right). It also presents of problem of you won't have any idea if you got your loot on your 10th run of the week or your 30th run of the week, and so people would burn themselves out trying to get as many runs in all their dungeons as possible trying to get as many upgrades in that weekly chest as possible - compared to perhaps live where people can temper themselves once in a while when they get a piece of loot they've been after and are placated. And understandably when people get their ideal upgrade for a dungeon they move onto the next one -- but under this system they would just keep grinding that dungeon because they wouldn't know if they got it yet or not so just to be safe let's keep grinding this one dungeon over and over and over again to make sure they got their weapons or trinkets or whatever is the best upgrade.

    This could lead to not only a lot of burnout but also a lot of repetition in terms of focusing one dungeon beyond what they were previously where natural drops were telling them now they're ready to move onto the next item at a different place - that you can do something else now. And again, consider at the same time people feel forced to do raids first to get loot off bosses the normal way faster -- people who don't like to raid would feel burnout not only from having to raid, but also M+ their preferred activity starts to feel worse because all of a sudden it isn't dropping loot normally like literally every other source of loot in the game dropping off bosses as things should. Plus, M+ wouldn't have bonus loot from the chest, only what you would have normally gotten - meanwhile raiding would get extra loot from its chest in addition to getting immediate boss drop rewards. You can see how unfair this seems by comparison. I don't think this situation of all loot all at once for M+ in the chest would be very good, ultimately. I think it just increases the hostilities between M+ and Raiding and it makes the differences worse. Currently, Raiding and M+ are only really so different in much less minor ways and I think for now I have trouble seeing how this could be better.
    I think you took the sugestion a bit too seriously. I was playing devil's advocate.
    Exactly why there are numerous issues with it, the current design is a good compromise.

    Though i confess that is not what i had in mind when i said that. I mean weekly lockout the same way it works on mythic0. After you run it once, that's it. Of course many some alterations to the system would be needed. But, again, it was an example meant at demonstrating why the curremt design makes sense. Mythic+ was simply overpowered in terms of gear, and i say that as someone who regularly runs it.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-12-01 at 06:55 AM.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    It didn't seem so obvious from reading your previous posts, sorry.
    You should've read the whole discussion.

    The dude claimed the following when we discussed whether heroic should drop lower ilvl than m+ (which it did in prior expacs):
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    By this standard, no mythic raider would ever set foot in heroic except to learn fights. The primary gearing method would be the dungeons. That's problematic.
    After which I told him that top mythic guilds cleared HC 6 times. So there clearly was an incentive to clear it for gear and not for "learning the fights", why would they have cleared it six times on different chars with armor type stack if it wasn't for gear?

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Because in my opinion it's stupid.
    I mean I got that much from your original comment. Was merely wondering why, but if you don't feel like expanding on that answer that's cool. Just wondering.

  20. #240
    Im not excited for this either, everything else is fantastic but less gear, i doubt i will be playing many other characters. it seems they want to slow character progression but having characters with brilliant gear has never stopped me from wanting to play so this doesn't sit well with me, especially due to the fact that i've set two nights of the week to playing with a team. I feel like im torn between leaving my team for raiding guild to stay competitive. It is still early days so im going to have to see how it pans out.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •