The Titans & The Shadowlands

[Season2mask]

Apologies for the barrage of questions. Please just answer whatever you feel like. I'm so confused.

I'm not entirely sure how to word this thread as there's a lot to think about concerning the Titans and the Shadowlands. I find myself wondering, how do the Titans relate to things like the Arbiter and The Jailer? A strange question perhaps but, would Sargeras have known of the Shadowlands? Surely Aman'thul would have? Who's more important, The Arbiter or Aman'thul? How do the Void Lords relate to the afterlife for the entire universe?

As a side note: I'm not a lore buff at all so I do wonder how Sargeras fits into the shadowlands as wasn't it his plan to tell KJ to make the Lich King? So he must have known about the power of the Maw for Arthas to wield it?

Any information on how the Titans would have thought of the Shadowlands, if they knew of it at all, would be great.

Thanks.

[Aucald]

The Titans knew that the Shadowlands existed, but knew little to nothing of them - their concern was the physical universe, bringing order to chaotic worlds, and finding and tending to the maturation of their own kind (e.g. World-Souls like Azeroth herself). They were creatures of the universe and concerned themselves primarily with it. Insofar as to how the Titans compare to the Eternal Ones, the pantheon of Death, we don't really know. Some of have claimed the Eternal Ones are slightly more powerful, where others have said their powers are the same or at least closely matched. I'm inclined to believe the latter, but the real answer is we don't quite know yet. Insofar as individuals go, I would say the Jailer is to the Eternal Ones what Sargeras proved to be to the Titan Pantheon, the most powerful of their number and a creature of evil intent. In terms of importance I would say the Arbiter edges out Aman'thul as the Arbiter has a critical role in the functioning of the metacosm of Warcraft, whereas Aman'thul while imporant doesn't necessarily serve a critical role to the function of the universe.

The Void Lords, and the Void itself, stand apart from Death - and has directly attacked the Shadowlands in ages past. All of the primordial metacosmic realms sort of stand for themselves, and the physical universe as the "center" of the metacosm is connected to them all in a variety of ways. As for the connection of the Legion to the schemes of the Jailer and the Shadowlands, this is likely (though again not verified) connected to the Nathrezim and their likely connection to Death, the text called "Enemy Infiltration - Preface" which seems to implicate the Dreadlords as creatures of Death involved in an elaborate plot against all the other realms of the metacosm. If this connection is true, then that would go a long way toward explaining how the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne wound up in the hands of the Legion Dreadlords, which was then passed on to Kil'jaeden and into the hands of the Lich King.

[Feanoro]

OP, the theme of Shadowlands is "totally new, original ideas that actually inspired content that came decades before it!" Retcons so blatant they utterly destroy what came before, out of the writers' complete disrepect for their predecessors. Even long term lore buffs have thrown up their hands and said "what is this shit".

Maladraxxus - The Scourge, but Scourgier!
The Eternal Ones - Titans, but Titanier!
Bastion - Paladins, but paladinier!

WoW has never been great literature by any means, as Metzen was a talented ripoff artist, but the new crew doesn't even try to be consistent. They've openly stated they view existing canon as constraining.

[Wazooty]

While I am hopeful that Elune will be some great link between their older lore and newer "made up" lore in a satisfying way, there's no doubt that this wasn't planned...

[Season2mask]

The Titans knew that the Shadowlands existed, but knew little to nothing of them - their concern was the physical universe, bringing order to chaotic worlds, and finding and tending to the maturation of their own kind (e.g. World-Souls like Azeroth herself). They were creatures of the universe and concerned themselves primarily with it. Insofar as to how the Titans compare to the Eternal Ones, the pantheon of Death, we don't really know. Some of have claimed the Eternal Ones are slightly more powerful, where others have said their powers are the same or at least closely matched. I'm inclined to believe the latter, but the real answer is we don't quite know yet. Insofar as individuals go, I would say the Jailer is to the Eternal Ones what Sargeras proved to be to the Titan Pantheon, the most powerful of their number and a creature of evil intent. In terms of importance I would say the Arbiter edges out Aman'thul as the Arbiter has a critical role in the functioning of the metacosm of Warcraft, whereas Aman'thul while imporant doesn't necessarily serve a critical role to the function of the universe.

The Void Lords, and the Void itself, stand apart from Death - and has directly attacked the Shadowlands in ages past. All of the primordial metacosmic realms sort of stand for themselves, and the physical universe as the "center" of the metacosm is connected to them all in a variety of ways. As for the connection of the Legion to the schemes of the Jailer and the Shadowlands, this is likely (though again not verified) connected to the Nathrezim and their likely connection to Death, the text called "Enemy Infiltration - Preface" which seems to implicate the Dreadlords as creatures of Death involved in an elaborate plot against all the other realms of the metacosm. If this connection is true, then that would go a long way toward explaining how the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne wound up in the hands of the Legion Dreadlords, which was then passed on to Kil'jaeden and into the hands of the Lich King.

Thanks for this post, Aucald. Much appreciated.

[Soon-TM]

While I am hopeful that Elune will be some great link between their older lore and newer "made up" lore in a satisfying way, there's no doubt that this wasn't planned...

I'm anxious to see how they butcher Elune now

[Minikin]

The Titans knew that the Shadowlands existed, but knew little to nothing of them - their concern was the physical universe, bringing order to chaotic worlds, and finding and tending to the maturation of their own kind (e.g. World-Souls like Azeroth herself). They were creatures of the universe and concerned themselves primarily with it. Insofar as to how the Titans compare to the Eternal Ones, the pantheon of Death, we don't really know. Some of have claimed the Eternal Ones are slightly more powerful, where others have said their powers are the same or at least closely matched. I'm inclined to believe the latter, but the real answer is we don't quite know yet. Insofar as individuals go, I would say the Jailer is to the Eternal Ones what Sargeras proved to be to the Titan Pantheon, the most powerful of their number and a creature of evil intent. In terms of importance I would say the Arbiter edges out Aman'thul as the Arbiter has a critical role in the functioning of the metacosm of Warcraft, whereas Aman'thul while imporant doesn't necessarily serve a critical role to the function of the universe.

The Void Lords, and the Void itself, stand apart from Death - and has directly attacked the Shadowlands in ages past. All of the primordial metacosmic realms sort of stand for themselves, and the physical universe as the "center" of the metacosm is connected to them all in a variety of ways. As for the connection of the Legion to the schemes of the Jailer and the Shadowlands, this is likely (though again not verified) connected to the Nathrezim and their likely connection to Death, the text called "Enemy Infiltration - Preface" which seems to implicate the Dreadlords as creatures of Death involved in an elaborate plot against all the other realms of the metacosm. If this connection is true, then that would go a long way toward explaining how the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne wound up in the hands of the Legion Dreadlords, which was then passed on to Kil'jaeden and into the hands of the Lich King.

Sums it up pretty nicely

[Varodoc]

Sargeras, the "Light Lords", and the Void Lords are all aware of he Shadowlands.

Sargeras' forces were enemies of Maldraxxus, as shown in the Draka cinematic, where the orc was sent to spy on a Legion forward base. It should also be mentioned that Sargeras sought to destroy THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE with his Dark Pantheon, and the Shadowlands are a part of it. He was probably going to break into the afterlife with said Dark Pantheon.

The Light launched a massive invasion of Revendreth to punish Denathrius for his constant transgressions against its sanctity. The forces of the Light were led by the Naaru Z'rali, and the Light scorched a massive area of Revendreth, turning it into the Ember Ward.

The Void launched two separate invasions, one in Bastion and one in Maldraxxus. In Bastion, they came close to engulfing the entire region in darkness, while in Maldraxxus they had a giant battle with the Maldraxxi near the Seat of the Primus (you visit that battlefield early on in the Maldraxxus storyline).

Furthermore, N'Zoth the Old God was very well aware of the Shadowlands and the threat posed by the Jailer. He berated the hero (you) for being "blind" to the truth. He alone knew that the Jailer was coming for the World Soul, and sought to secure it for himself instead.

I think that the Void Lords remain the most powerful entities in the entire franchise, by far. They are so powerful and terrifying that they cannot even manifest in the material universe, their presence is simply unfathomable, their power unending. The mere notion of the Void Lords was able to drive even the mighty Sargeras into insanity. Their dark whispers have driven mad even the godly children of the Titans (though there are SOME mortals who can resist them).

[tommyhil622]

I think that the Void Lords remain the most powerful entities in the entire franchise, by far. They are so powerful and terrifying that they cannot even manifest in the material universe, their presence is simply unfathomable, their power unending. The mere notion of the Void Lords was able to drive even the mighty Sargeras into insanity. Their dark whispers have driven mad even the godly children of the Titans (though there are SOME mortals who can resist them).

Just to clarify, Sargeras wasn't driven insane, he had fundamental change within his mind. I think about inception. Where an idea was planted in his mind that grew into a purpose, a mission. That idea grew to define him which changed everything about him. He literally became a new person, and evil one, but not an insane one imo.

As for the void lords, he wasn't afraid of the void lords per say, he was afraid of a void titan. The void lords can't manifest themselves long in the material world so he does not care about them. What he cares about is a void titan that circumvents the void lords weakness of not being able to manifest in the physical world for long periods of time.

[Houle]

Just to clarify, Sargeras wasn't driven insane, he had fundamental change within his mind. I think about inception. Where an idea was planted in his mind that grew into a purpose, a mission. That idea grew to define him which changed everything about him. He literally became a new person, and evil one, but not an insane one imo.

As for the void lords, he wasn't afraid of the void lords per say, he was afraid of a void titan. The void lords can't manifest themselves long in the material world so he does not care about them. What he cares about is a void titan that circumvents the void lords weakness of not being able to manifest in the physical world for long periods of time.

dont try it man.
he/she will never accept anything but beloved alleria and the void being the single most important and powerful thing in the warcraft cosmos.
facts that contradict that, like sargeras only being scared bc of a void titan (a TITAN) or titans being immune to the void lords corruption, are ignored in favour of that.
its almost as cringy as danuser is with sylvanas, i know, but thats just how it is. pointless to argue about that with said person

[Varodoc]

Just to clarify, Sargeras wasn't driven insane, he had fundamental change within his mind. I think about inception. Where an idea was planted in his mind that grew into a purpose, a mission. That idea grew to define him which changed everything about him. He literally became a new person, and evil one, but not an insane one imo.

As for the void lords, he wasn't afraid of the void lords per say, he was afraid of a void titan. The void lords can't manifest themselves long in the material world so he does not care about them. What he cares about is a void titan that circumvents the void lords weakness of not being able to manifest in the physical world for long periods of time.

Sargeras was definitely insane. Someone who loses hope and resolves to destroy everything is insane.

"Power" is defined by different parameters, the Void Lords don't have to be mightier than Sargeras to be more powerful. Their ability to control World Souls makes them more powerful than anyone else. The meddlesome Jailer is now trying to emulate their plans, but he will fail.

[Nerovar]

I'm anxious to see how they butcher Elune now

At this point they'll have to butcher her. There's almost nothing left.

[Tartys]

The Titans knew that the Shadowlands existed.

Winter Queen could be Eonar's sister, due the fact that she calls Ysera "her sister's pet".

If Eonar is the Winter Queen's sister... Shadowlands its more than something The Titans kwen to exist.. it's part of the family!

[Dhrizzle]

OP, the theme of Shadowlands is "totally new, original ideas that actually inspired content that came decades before it!" Retcons so blatant they utterly destroy what came before, out of the writers' complete disrepect for their predecessors. Even long term lore buffs have thrown up their hands and said "what is this shit".

Maladraxxus - The Scourge, but Scourgier!
The Eternal Ones - Titans, but Titanier!
Bastion - Paladins, but paladinier!

WoW has never been great literature by any means, as Metzen was a talented ripoff artist, but the new crew doesn't even try to be consistent. They've openly stated they view existing canon as constraining.

This is how Blizzard has always operated, even back in TBC they decided to retcon the Draenei to connect them to the Eredar (and accidentally retconned the origin of Sargeras at the same time.) WoW is much closer to something like Marvel and other comic universes where long term consistency comes second to the story they want to tell at that time.

- - - Updated - - -

The Titans must have had some idea of the Shadowlands as Odyn's group on the Broken Isles managed to create their own afterlives that must be connected somehow. I'm willing to wager that it is their messing around that allowed for Sylvanas and the Jailer to make trouble.

[tommyhil622]

Sargeras was definitely insane. Someone who loses hope and resolves to destroy everything is insane.

"Power" is defined by different parameters, the Void Lords don't have to be mightier than Sargeras to be more powerful. Their ability to control World Souls makes them more powerful than anyone else. The meddlesome Jailer is now trying to emulate their plans, but he will fail.

I disagree. Again you are creating a measure to reinterpret lore. The void is so powerful yet? The are not the dominant power in the universe and never have been. The titans were uncontested and were undone not by the void but by one of their own.

At this point in time, ths void has known nothing but failure. And has yet to do anything of significance to warrant your assessment that they are the most powerful.

The point is Sargeras was not afraid of the void lords. He's was afraid of the potential of a void infused titan. Its important to know that distinction.

[Varodoc]

I disagree. Again you are creating a measure to reinterpret lore. The void is so powerful yet? The are not the dominant power in the universe and never have been. The titans were uncontested and were undone not by the void but by one of their own.

At this point in time, ths void has known nothing but failure. And has yet to do anything of significance to warrant your assessment that they are the most powerful.

The point is Sargeras was not afraid of the void lords. He's was afraid of the potential of a void infused titan. Its important to know that distinction.

Remind me, who would create said Void Titan?

[Saltysquidoon]

This is how Blizzard has always operated, even back in TBC they decided to retcon the Draenei to connect them to the Eredar (and accidentally retconned the origin of Sargeras at the same time.) WoW is much closer to something like Marvel and other comic universes where long term consistency comes second to the story they want to tell at that time..

Except that in TBC they didn't decide to do that retcon it was an accident, Metzan himself took time out of his busy schedule of snorting coke off the doomhammer to write up a mea culpa about it.

That is a universe away from whatever Betauser thinks he's doing.

[Lakrin]

Winter Queen could be Eonar's sister, due the fact that she calls Ysera "her sister's pet".

If Eonar is the Winter Queen's sister... Shadowlands its more than something The Titans kwen to exist.. it's part of the family!

I'm kind of hoping she's Elune's sister, actually. They made sure to highlight the moon imagery in the cinematics surrounding Ysera's death and rebirth, and that's basically all I have to go off of, but we've seen weaker connections turned into lore before.

[Zalatoby]

Remind me, who would create said Void Titan?

That would be said Void Lords.

But since they haven't yet, all they've shown for it is faliure.
As stated earlier in the thread.

[Varodoc]

That would be said Void Lords.

But since they haven't yet, all they've shown for it is faliure.
As stated earlier in the thread.

Now that Sargeras is gone they will start making power moves. For starters, Xal'atath is out there, and something tells me she's up to no good.