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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I can easily run 50 M+ dungeons in one week with my group. This means I statistically will get 10 pieces of 210 loot IN ONE WEEK. I would never be able to do that in raiding and that's why M+ loot is lower ilvl. Plus I didn't even count the 226 ilvl I will get from the weekly chest.
    We can close this thread now.
    That's all there is to it and there is no counter argument against facts.
    Thanks for the heads up!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    So a shift towards rewards from weekly lottery instead of rewarding actual gameplay. You will still be far behind raiders because they also get vault in addition to loot dropping from bosses.
    - Raid bosses will drop 3 pieces of loot per boss for 20 people. Gearing in raiding will be very slow. You will on average get 1.5 pieces of loot per week from the raid itself.

    - Heroic raiding will only get 213 gear in the weekly chest while M+ will give 226.

    - You can easily farm full 210 gear in 1-2 weeks in M+. You will never be able to do that in raiding unless you run extreme split runs. If you only do heroic raids then it will take A LONG time to get full 213 gear.

    - If you are ready to put in the time then you can potentially gear much much much faster in M+ than raiding. Raiding got a cap, M+ doesn't. I can easily run 50 M+ dungeons in one week with my group.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-11-30 at 02:45 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by paragraphgorilla View Post
    Sure, if you want a weekly loot lockout on M+.
    There always has been a weekly loot lockout on the max M+ rewards (in the chest) ...

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by froschhure View Post
    M+ needs to scale to mythic raid content (ilvl wise) or I am afraid this whole design is garbage :-)
    No it doesn not.
    In the end you will be at the same iLvL as mythic raiders via the weekly chest. Maybe 1 or 2 behind because of the increase in ilvl of the last too bosses, which nearly no one sees anyway if ou look at the whole playerbase.
    Mythic+ is spammable. And required the moment it is the way you asked.

    A normal heroic raiding guild won't have a problem to do the Mythic 15 key. You completly invalidade Raid gearing if the loot is that good and abundant in Mythic+.

    Raiding is still the top PvE endgame. And if you look at rankings you see that way more people raid, than do high level Mythic Keys. It is a fun system. For me. But many don't like it because of it nature of being time restricted.

    You WILL be at the highest itemlevel via Mythic+. Just not in week one. I would argue you are not even that much slower. I had so many weeks where i did not get one piece of loot out of raids that i needed. But i spammed mythic+ until i was sick of it because it is such an easy and ridiciulously fast source of gear.

    You will be quite high quite fast via mythic+ only. Raiders only will catchup and be on the highest iLvl faster than Mythic+ only players. In the end they will be at the same iLvL.

    Also, and i think that is way more important. There are nearly no players who ONLY do raids or mythic+ on a level where the ilvl cap of mythic+ matters. I don't know any highkey player who does not raid anyway and vice versa.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    This is the same reasoning I found myself disagreeing on way back when the argument was 10m against 25m.

    The only sensible difference is that closing a key and failing it still awards you some reward and the Vault chance. But to be honest, and I'll take the chance to address other answers, power might be the issue here but raids award better cosmetics regardless, on top of having the general edge (aside from the current situation of course, where it's the clear cut overall winner), and cosmetics last the test of time - the scythe of Argus serves one of my guildmates better than the coveted Aman'thul does nowadays.

    Mythic raiding in itself isn't overly complicated, it's just that it requires a number of hoops and stuff to be done, namely 20ish people at around the same skill level or willingness to perform and play what's fotm, and adequate hardware.
    I mean it is simply more difficult then a 15 even taking into account all that.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I mean it is simply more difficult then a 15 even taking into account all that.
    But it's mechanics, not logistics. A group able to close a 15 in time has the skillset needed to perform in a mythic environment, and it makes no sense to state otherwise.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    If you want mythic raid loot then do mythic raiding. Players need to stop expecting the best gear for minimal work. It's bad for the game and causes entitlement like we are seeing in here.
    So if a player wants to play the game but doesn't have the time to commit to do mythic raiding shouldn't be able to get the gear ? Who sounds entitled now ?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    To push keys you need gear, and you need this gear to be good.
    So far, the dungeon trinkets aren't shaping up to be great. But it's to be expected: raid always gave better trinkets (and in certain cases weapons), it was always one of the reasons to have a side progress when it came down to M+ specifically.

    But now M+ cannot give meaningful gear to progress in a M+ only environment. You have to be raiding to have the edge you need to push.

    The argument can be made on barring a content that requires less people in a situation where population seems to suffer, but we can't say for sure because Blizzard stopped giving numbers. Overall it's a questionable decision, and one that actively hurts the nature of the environment in which operates.
    I guess? Didn't Blizzard heavily nerf the amount of gear you get from M+ though? Also, like I said, because of the SL gear differences, going to Nathria with Mythic 0 gear is not that big a deal.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    If you want mythic raid loot then do mythic raiding. Players need to stop expecting the best gear for minimal work. It's bad for the game and causes entitlement like we are seeing in here.
    Remember those chests you would get from the sometimes weekly complete 5 dungeons quest? The best case scenario for me would be if they started selling those in the blizz store (especially if the chest was mythic version) . I love RnG boxes and to be able to purchase gear or progression instantly instead of all the waiting that comes into raiding, Dungeons & weekly resets.

    I've already played another game with such a system for years, and it would be a dream if blizz would implement that in WoW as well.
    Last edited by Nalam the Venom; 2020-11-30 at 03:10 PM.

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by froschhure View Post
    M+ needs to scale to mythic raid content (ilvl wise) or I am afraid this whole design is garbage :-)
    the system is better than ever in sl,now...i agree that m+ is more challenging than mythic raiding if you do rly high keys,but the loot is gonna cap at a level where its not very hard

    the only way i could see m+ drops being on the same ilvl as mythic raids and have it be fair is if the dungeons had a lockout....but even then it would be far to good to just do those weekly,every mythic raider would be forced to do ALL m+ every week....nope,its just a bad idea

  11. #31
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    Just make m+ give increased loot up to 20+ instead of 15. Most people will struggle with 15s first season so it's not like it'll be easy.
    Hi

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    - Raid bosses will drop 3 pieces of loot per boss for 20 people. Gearing in raiding will be very slow. You will on average get 1.5 pieces of loot per week from the raid itself.

    - Heroic raiding will only get 213 gear in the weekly chest while M+ will give 226.

    - You can easily farm full 210 gear in 1-2 weeks in M+. You will never be able to do that in raiding unless you run extreme split runs. If you only do heroic raids then it will take A LONG time to get full 213 gear.

    - If you are ready to put in the time then you can potentially gear much much much faster in M+ than raiding. Raiding got a cap, M+ doesn't. I can easily run 50 M+ dungeons in one week with my group.
    Like I said, I think Blizzard stated they were heavily limiting the amount of gear you attain in M+ Dungeons, to avoid the wacky catch-up stuff from BFA, that ultimately led to Raids not feeling as rewarding. Not to mention the other factors such as Titanforging, etc.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    "Mythic Plus needs to scale to raid ilvl" It caps at 210, which is literally fucking perfect for Heroic Raiding. Mythic 0's alone are good enough to bring you to Castle Nathria Normal, even if barely.

    Let Mythic Raiding be for the top dogs. What's so hard to understand here?
    I don't necessarily agree with OP, but I think loot should scale to/past HC level for higher keys, not to mythic level but higher/equal to HC. It would be nice to get something, a timed reward for a +20 or a +25 in time - sort of Cutting Edge/Unique Mount equivalent/Challenge Tmog so it would set PvP, M+ and Mythic Raiding as equals. Now the challenge is only rewarded by 3rd party point system.

  14. #34
    "M+ needs to scale to mythic raid content (ilvl wise) or I am afraid this whole design is garbage :-)" Fuck that shit...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Moi2003 View Post
    So if a player wants to play the game but doesn't have the time to commit to do mythic raiding shouldn't be able to get the gear ? Who sounds entitled now ?
    You do, assuming what you posted reflects your own personal situation.

    Entitlement in this case stems from wanting to get the same loot without putting in the same amount of time/effort in as everyone else. If you don't have the time for mythic raiding, then don't expect to get the same rewards as people who put in the time/effort to mythic raid. One of the larger misconceptions is that just because someone pays a sub fee they are entitled to all the loot, which is not correct at all: you're entitled play the game and the loot you work for. If a sub fee is all it took, our mailboxes should be raining max level gear on a daily basis by just logging in.

    Irony is that the M+ scene is much more favorable for getting to your max ilvl gear set than it's ever been, and likely faster and easier with how the weekly Vault works. The only thing going away is getting full better-than-heroic-raid geared in about a week by spamming M+ end-of-dungeon chests, so short-term gearing is slower.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
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  16. #36
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    You do, assuming what you posted reflects your own personal situation.

    Entitlement in this case stems from wanting to get the same loot without putting in the same amount of time/effort in as everyone else. If you don't have the time for mythic raiding, then don't expect to get the same rewards as people who put in the time/effort to mythic raid. One of the larger misconceptions is that just because someone pays a sub fee they are entitled to all the loot, which is not correct at all: you're entitled play the game and the loot you work for. If a sub fee is all it took, our mailboxes should be raining max level gear on a daily basis by just logging in.

    Irony is that the M+ scene is much more favorable for getting to your max ilvl gear set than it's ever been, and likely faster and easier with how the weekly Vault works. The only thing going away is getting full better-than-heroic-raid geared in about a week by spamming M+ end-of-dungeon chests, so short-term gearing is slower.
    Have you considered the fact that the game is not a meritocracy and attempting to treat it as such will only serve to alienate players?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Moi2003 View Post
    So if a player wants to play the game but doesn't have the time to commit to do mythic raiding shouldn't be able to get the gear ? Who sounds entitled now ?
    If they dont mythic raid they dont need the gear. Simple as that. You get gear appropriate to the work you put in and activities you do. If you have only time for wqs and such, do you need 223 gear? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except it would only be "textbook" confirmation bias if I fully believed that a third spec was actually coming.

  18. #38
    Honestly, there needs to be room for heroic raiding too. Last Xpak, mythic+ outclassed the vast majority of raiding(and certainly all of heroic raiding) in nearly every way, making raiding a flavor side activity for those out of the meta. It almost ruined the game, and this change(well publicized on this forum) was much needed and one of the main reasons I'm even playing WoW again, so I disagree. Mythic + was too rewarding, now it isn't. It was bad for the game, not it isn't. BFA was bad, Shadowlands isn't. Easy to see, imo.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2020-11-30 at 03:28 PM.

  19. #39
    High Overlord Moi2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    If they dont mythic raid they dont need the gear. Simple as that. You get gear appropriate to the work you put in and activities you do. If you have only time for wqs and such, do you need 223 gear? No.
    In that case, why even have LFR, normal or heroic raiding ? just do mythic raiding

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    If you want mythic raid loot then do mythic raiding. Players need to stop expecting the best gear for minimal work. It's bad for the game and causes entitlement like we are seeing in here.
    You literally couldn't be further from truth. The wrongest statement in entire forum.

    I am mythic raider who does M+ occasionally. So I will have best gear, faster and more reliably than all M+ "scrubs" even if those M+ scrubs do far harder content than vast majority of mythic raiders by pushing some extreme levels.

    I am simply anti-Karen and think that everyone should be able to get good gear by playing content they like with enough effort.

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