Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[jonnysensible]

I think people eagerly await the grand "Push him Left!" strategy in action; or confirmation that we are just playing witness to the DNC Cinematic Universe and its fandom.

what the fuck are you talking about? cinematic universe? what fucking cult have you joined now where talking like this makes sense?

[szechuan]

It is strange to me that you would embrace the logic of "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare" for your case, but do go off King.

Yet you're suggesting that increasing employee wages and benefits equates to Corporations are a person.

Corporations are not a person.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You know, I've been going through this thread, and for as much as @Edge- and @Endus have talked about retraining programs, they've gotten a lot of hate from the usual suspects. Oddly enough though, the usual suspects just pretend that retraining programs never work and that it's all just some big conspiracy to get coal miners to work for the educated liberal glory!

Man when you look at what they're trying to say, it actually sounds like a really freaking silly conspiracy theory huh? Even better is that these people who are shitting on retraining programs HAVE YET TO EVEN PROPOSE A SOLUTION. They laugh at the very remote notion that "Hey, we want to support you til you get back on your feet, but you need to work hard to get back on your feet so you can start supporting yourself." as some kind of "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" statement? Bootstrap statements are cold and heartless, and it's hilarious that people like @Theodarzna are shitting on the one solution to the nation's regional poverty and has yet to actually offer some kind of working solution? Is it so much to expect someone to have a goal for being able to support themselves? Why do you criticize retraining programs which contain an effort to give people who are literally just starving, another chance at life, especially when you yourself have no working solution? I've probably donated more to local charities for the poor than Theo's made in her life.

[Felya]

You know, I've been going through this thread, and for as much as @Edge- and @Endus have talked about retraining programs, they've gotten a lot of hate from the usual suspects. Oddly enough though, the usual suspects just pretend that retraining programs never work and that it's all just some big conspiracy to get coal miners to work for the educated liberal glory!

Man when you look at what they're trying to say, it actually sounds like a really freaking silly conspiracy theory huh? Even better is that these people who are shitting on retraining programs HAVE YET TO EVEN PROPOSE A SOLUTION. They laugh at the very remote notion that "Hey, we want to support you til you get back on your feet, but you need to work hard to get back on your feet so you can start supporting yourself." as some kind of "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" statement? Bootstrap statements are cold and heartless, and it's hilarious that people like @Theodarzna are shitting on the one solution to the nation's regional poverty and has yet to actually offer some kind of working solution? Is it so much to expect someone to have a goal for being able to support themselves? Why do you criticize retraining programs which contain an effort to give people who are literally just starving, another chance at life, especially when you yourself have no working solution? I've probably donated more to local charities for the poor than Theo's made in her life.

Because common people are the problem for authoritarians. It makes more sense, if you have a superiority complex, and simply believe the public is lazy and stupid. They don’t believe teaching the public to ride a bike will work, so they argue for various forms of training wheels instead.

Edit: As I already said... I don’t care if it makes me seem soft or uncool... I believe in American people...

[Omega10]

You know, I've been going through this thread, and for as much as @Edge- and @Endus have talked about retraining programs, they've gotten a lot of hate from the usual suspects. Oddly enough though, the usual suspects just pretend that retraining programs never work and that it's all just some big conspiracy to get coal miners to work for the educated liberal glory!

Man when you look at what they're trying to say, it actually sounds like a really freaking silly conspiracy theory huh? Even better is that these people who are shitting on retraining programs HAVE YET TO EVEN PROPOSE A SOLUTION. They laugh at the very remote notion that "Hey, we want to support you til you get back on your feet, but you need to work hard to get back on your feet so you can start supporting yourself." as some kind of "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" statement? Bootstrap statements are cold and heartless, and it's hilarious that people like @Theodarzna are shitting on the one solution to the nation's regional poverty and has yet to actually offer some kind of working solution? Is it so much to expect someone to have a goal for being able to support themselves? Why do you criticize retraining programs which contain an effort to give people who are literally just starving, another chance at life, especially when you yourself have no working solution? I've probably donated more to local charities for the poor than Theo's made in her life.

Edge and Endus and others have done a good job of explaining and defending what retraining programs are all about, their shortcomings, and why overall they are desirable and even necessary. We live in a world where businesses go bankrupt, and even entire industries get replaced. Retraining programs are quite necessary in helping the citizens of the country in dealing with these realities.

This reminds me of the Brexit thread, where Dribbles gives the EU team a chance to both explain and also sell the EU and to present information about why it exists, what it's goals are, and how it tries to achieve them. I was always pro-EU anyways, but that thread has increased my admiration for what it's trying to accomplish by quite a lot. The fact that the EU team openly acknowledges its deficiencies and discusses the actions that EU is taking to try to mitigate these deficiencies strengthens their arguments by quite a bit.

In a similar fashion, Edge and Endus and others have done a remarkable job of explaining what retraining programs are all about, what their advantages are, and why they are necessary and desirable. And their deficiencies have also been acknowledged. No one can force people to use these retraining programs, and there are no guarantees that you won't spend a year or so retraining and then end up not getting a job anyways.

Effective retraining programs are crucial for capitalism to work, allowing people to adjust to the changing realities of the business community. Shout out especially to Edge and Endus for explaining this so well

[Felya]

Edge and Endus and others have done a good job of explaining and defending what retraining programs are all about, their shortcomings, and why overall they are desirable and even necessary. We live in a world where businesses go bankrupt, and even entire industries get replaced. Retraining programs are quite necessary in helping the citizens of the country in dealing with these realities.

Which is also why IT pays so much... a friend of mine made a fortune on knowing Cold Fusion in the late 90s... pretty much worthless now. How about Cobalt, that went from only code maintenance jobs, to being the most thought out skill in 99. I didn’t learn about wifi, mobile devices or cloud servers, when I was in school in the 90s...

The thing is, we are dancing around the real issue here. If the 50k coal miners that exist in US, went for IT retraining, they would have an advantage over HS graduates, that decades working in the coal mine, didn’t provide. Now imagine if they learned this in HS, then were coal miners or manufacturing? Imagine if US schools had the curriculum that included enough education, that when said coal miners loses his job, they can seek an entry level job in IT, instead of BK.

Maybe that’s how we get outsourcing jobs back from India and Poland... there is obviously demand...

[Felya]

If even social democratic measures can't work, I really have nothing left. Its just going to get worse and worse for the working poor. A bunch of coal miners going into coding or IT won't change it for those who don't make it.

This way outside my field.

‘Not coming to US anytime soon’, means that it can work. You just need to figure out why it’s not working. I’d start with assuming the working poor are lazy idiots, being the elephant in that room. You won’t get support and shouldn’t get support, from people you treat like morons.

‘The general public can’t learn’ is an ostensibly conservative ideology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dewey

How about being a bit of a leftist, to consider that the statistics you claim shows re-education fails, is the result of shit implementation and curriculum? What if we try again, but this time rely on John Dewey’s pedagogical theory? Sounds kinda... “progressive”, “classic” liberal, to me...

[JohnBrown1917]

Nevermind my last post, seems I deleted a huge part of it on accident.

[Felya]

Nevermind my last post, seems I deleted a huge part of it on accident.

It’s all right... it’s preserved in my reply... I can totally see where a large part is missing... queue the Borat meme...

[Omega10]

If even social democratic measures can't work, I really have nothing left. Its just going to get worse and worse for the working poor. A bunch of coal miners going into coding or IT won't change it for those who don't make it.

This way outside my field.

Well a social net, or some version of UBI, is also necessary as well.

This won't happen in the US anytime soon as Trump supporters just went on a huge anti-socialism rampage and were rewarded handsomely at the polls. M4A isn't going to happen anytime soon much less effective programs to help the working poor and the unemployed.

And I agree that it is just going to get worse and worse for both the working poor and the unemployed. And there are a lot more unemployed than ever before. But in today's current political climate, there is exactly zero chance of moving forward on even starting to fix this. Oh there might be some sort of band aid solution so that the country can say it's trying to fix things - SEE IT'S ALL BETTER NOW.

High quality education and retraining programs are necessary to help people succeed. A strong safety net is also necessary. Maintaining a healthy economy requires a lot of work, and right now the US has made it clear that it just does not want to do what it takes to make it happen. The US won't even do what it takes to control the virus, and in this case it is QUITE clear what needs to be done.

[Orange Joe]

I think people eagerly await the grand "Push him Left!" strategy in action; or confirmation that we are just playing witness to the DNC Cinematic Universe and its fandom.

^^^


This people is when someone thinks they are making a coherent thought/argument, but in reality it's just gibberish.....

[Endus]

And their deficiencies have also been acknowledged. No one can force people to use these retraining programs, and there are no guarantees that you won't spend a year or so retraining and then end up not getting a job anyways.

That's perhaps something I didn't explain well enough.

The labor market is still gonna be a marketplace. Retraining for a job that isn't in-demand, or which isn't in demand in your area when you're unwilling to move, that's not gonna help you out of a hole. But that's not a problem with the concept of retraining, that's an issue with the distribution of employment throughout the market, and that's something everyone deals with.

And here's the thing; you don't hear stories about those who trained for a highly-demanded job and moved to where the work is. Because they're mostly doing fine and don't need retraining, because of those decisions. I'm not trying to say they're "better" or something, here, the point is that they were willing to make that effort, and it (largely) works out for them. It really shouldn't be surprising when people make poor decisions focused on their own unwillingness to be flexible, that those choices don't work out as well for them in the end. Which, again, isn't meant as condemnation; I'm not suggesting anyone's priorities must be their work. Sticking in your home town because of family and connections and getting by however you can, if that's more important to you, fine. Just accept that it's a choice.

People can still fuck off with the "you don't care about" horseshit; I support a basic income for everyone because the labor market shouldn't have this much power. But until/unless we can agree to implement something along those lines, you've gotta play the cards you're dealt, not sulk that the game's seven card stud rather than bridge. Or at least accept that you sitting in the corner while everyone enjoys the game is a choice you made. We can dream of a different world, but we gotta live in this one.

[Milchshake]

Screenshot of our revolutionary anti-elites complaining about Biden's latest appointments:



Fox News and the Jacobin/Intercept left, is there a difference?

Really, a bunch of commentators that went to elite schools. Complaining about people that use their degrees/expertise to get work done.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Edge and Endus and others have done a good job of explaining and defending what retraining programs are all about, their shortcomings, and why overall they are desirable and even necessary. We live in a world where businesses go bankrupt, and even entire industries get replaced. Retraining programs are quite necessary in helping the citizens of the country in dealing with these realities.

This reminds me of the Brexit thread, where Dribbles gives the EU team a chance to both explain and also sell the EU and to present information about why it exists, what it's goals are, and how it tries to achieve them. I was always pro-EU anyways, but that thread has increased my admiration for what it's trying to accomplish by quite a lot. The fact that the EU team openly acknowledges its deficiencies and discusses the actions that EU is taking to try to mitigate these deficiencies strengthens their arguments by quite a bit.

In a similar fashion, Edge and Endus and others have done a remarkable job of explaining what retraining programs are all about, what their advantages are, and why they are necessary and desirable. And their deficiencies have also been acknowledged. No one can force people to use these retraining programs, and there are no guarantees that you won't spend a year or so retraining and then end up not getting a job anyways.

Effective retraining programs are crucial for capitalism to work, allowing people to adjust to the changing realities of the business community. Shout out especially to Edge and Endus for explaining this so well

Basically yes. Retraining is not a perfect solution by any stretch. But it's far better than the alternative Republicans offer: comforting words of revitalizing dying industries and zero action. They can praise Republicans all they want for big promises, it's not helping anyone. They make big promises about casting resurrect on these dying industries. They campaign on it. Then they do jack shit, or subsidize the jobs with government money for a few months and then it gets automated anyway. And of course when Republicans campaign on getting coal miners back into mining coal, Theo PRAISES them for knowing exactly what these people want to hear. And then it's 4 more years of coal jobs going down the toilet with zero action. I'd ask "Where's the criticism for Republicans doing jack shit?" but we know that Theo is too busy frothing at the mouth, screaming about the Democrat neo liberal cabal taking over the world to worry about how shitty a job Republicans are doing.

- - - Updated - - -

Screenshot of our revolutionary anti-elites complaining about Biden's latest appointments:



Fox News and the Jacobin/Intercept left, is there a difference?

Really, a bunch of commentators that went to elite schools. Complaining about people that use their degrees/expertise to get work done.

It's really hilarious how these people peddle the "anti-elite" line and their adoring fanbase slurps it up like thirsty animals. The right wing elite are telling their adoring base to hate the left wing elite because Democrats. Just another day that ends in Y.

[JohnBrown1917]

Well a social net, or some version of UBI, is also necessary as well.

This won't happen in the US anytime soon as Trump supporters just went on a huge anti-socialism rampage and were rewarded handsomely at the polls. M4A isn't going to happen anytime soon much less effective programs to help the working poor and the unemployed.

And I agree that it is just going to get worse and worse for both the working poor and the unemployed. And there are a lot more unemployed than ever before. But in today's current political climate, there is exactly zero chance of moving forward on even starting to fix this. Oh there might be some sort of band aid solution so that the country can say it's trying to fix things - SEE IT'S ALL BETTER NOW.

High quality education and retraining programs are necessary to help people succeed. A strong safety net is also necessary. Maintaining a healthy economy requires a lot of work, and right now the US has made it clear that it just does not want to do what it takes to make it happen. The US won't even do what it takes to control the virus, and in this case it is QUITE clear what needs to be done.

My bad, that post was directed at somebody else but I messed up the quoting/deleted parts of it by accident.
Post made no sense out of context so I deleted it.

[Theodarzna]

Man, you love your SAT words, don't you Theo.

What sort of burn are you trying to do here? "HA! Theo knows lots of words!" yeah, apologies? I don't know what you want me to say or do about that?

[Edge-]

What sort of burn are you trying to do here? "HA! Theo knows lots of words!" yeah, apologies? I don't know what you want me to say or do about that?

It...wasn't? Not everything is some kind of personal attack or slight against you, Theo. Power down weapons, lower shields.

[Theodarzna]

It...wasn't? Not everything is some kind of personal attack or slight against you, Theo. Power down weapons, lower shields.

It was vague enough that It can be taken that way. Plus you've had a habit of insulting me before.

[JohnBrown1917]

Screenshot of our revolutionary anti-elites complaining about Biden's latest appointments:



Fox News and the Jacobin/Intercept left, is there a difference?

Really, a bunch of commentators that went to elite schools. Complaining about people that use their degrees/expertise to get work done.

So its just going to be 4 years of you screeching at anybody who has critism of who Biden picks to run anything without actually pointing out why they are "wrong"?

[Theodarzna]

Edge and Endus and others have done a good job of explaining and defending what retraining programs are all about, their shortcomings, and why overall they are desirable and even necessary. We live in a world where businesses go bankrupt, and even entire industries get replaced. Retraining programs are quite necessary in helping the citizens of the country in dealing with these realities.

This reminds me of the Brexit thread, where Dribbles gives the EU team a chance to both explain and also sell the EU and to present information about why it exists, what it's goals are, and how it tries to achieve them. I was always pro-EU anyways, but that thread has increased my admiration for what it's trying to accomplish by quite a lot. The fact that the EU team openly acknowledges its deficiencies and discusses the actions that EU is taking to try to mitigate these deficiencies strengthens their arguments by quite a bit.

In a similar fashion, Edge and Endus and others have done a remarkable job of explaining what retraining programs are all about, what their advantages are, and why they are necessary and desirable. And their deficiencies have also been acknowledged. No one can force people to use these retraining programs, and there are no guarantees that you won't spend a year or so retraining and then end up not getting a job anyways.

Effective retraining programs are crucial for capitalism to work, allowing people to adjust to the changing realities of the business community. Shout out especially to Edge and Endus for explaining this so well

They've defended a type of retraining that as of yet does no actually exist. I know you guys love them, for a variety of reasons, but I do love that we are acknowledging the logic of these programs as essentially "Remake these people to serve Capitalism" after laws were enacted which ruined these communities. A fact which is constantly mystified and ignored or hand waved, as if to pretend that it was an unavoidable accident. Plus they are discussing "Retraining" in absolute theory, not how they have actually worked.

These plans have not worked in twenty years. Why we would keep trying is beyond me when clearly the better option is industrial policy and spending in those areas which has historically worked. Versus the plan that sounds good and can be argued for but hasn't actually worked the entire time they have been advocated for.

- - - Updated - - -

So its just going to be 4 years of you screeching at anybody who has critism of who Biden picks to run anything without actually pointing out why they are "wrong"?

Dude, we are just witnessing the Fandom and its rituals.