Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Shalcker]

1> Money isn't flowing from rural to urban. Money is flowing from workers to the capitalists. This is literally the point and purpose of a capitalist system. If it bothers you, reject capitalism already.

No objections from me, as far as i'm concerned capitalism is free to die tomorrow!

But even within capitalist system those flows can be regulated, and development plans can be established.

With increased remote work bringing high-speed internet to rural areas could move at least some jobs away from metro areas, and that's the kind of investment that could happen on federal dime.

5> Anticompetitive practices are, again, capitalism in a nutshell. Antitrust actions are not easy to prosecute, because those corporations will invest millions in their own defense. Particularly difficult when not all anticompetitive actions are even illegal. Because, again, breaking down the competition is how capitalism works.

That's regulatory failure. "Legal" is whatever is written in laws; laws that are written and passed by legislators.

6> Literally admits that antitrust enforcement is part of Biden's plan, but whines that it doesn't matter, because this guy had his mind made up and it literally did not matter what Biden's platform was, he was gonna hate it.

Where do you see "hate it"???

It's Democrat activist in deep-Red area, all he is saying is that it is distrusted - and distrusted for a reason given similar promises by Obama and subsequent failure.

7> Seriously, for all the attacks on Democrats in this, itemize what Republicans have actually done for rural America. Not empty campaign promises, actual passed legislation. He skips over this, because it's indefensible.

He doesn't; he attacks Trump if you would bother reading actual article.

8> They're literally arguing against change, while claiming to desire change. His final paragraph is a desire to return to a mythical past that never existed, while refusing to consider actual, meaningful change and adaptation to circumstances, moving forward into a new future.

Which "meaningful change/adaptation" are you talking about?

Naturally people hope to avoid anything that looks like "Rural must die".

[Endus]

That's regulatory failure. "Legal" is whatever is written in laws; laws that are written and passed by legislators.

Nope. Expected and desired outcomes cannot be construed as regulatory failures.

This is capitalism. If you don't think it's great, let's talk about shifting to a different economic model.

Where do you see "hate it"???

Where he admits that Biden's platform contains exactly what he's looking for, but dismisses it because it doesn't have a high enough number for him, when those numbers are effectively meaningless and in no way a priority system.

That's a stance that only comes from an assumption that you'll hate a thing no matter what it says.

It's Democrat activist in deep-Red area, all he is saying is that it is distrusted - and distrusted for a reason given similar promises by Obama and subsequent failure.

To be frank, I couldn't give two fucks about his affiliation. I judge people and their views on the merits of their opinions and words (or lack thereof). If you expect me to take his word because he's a Democrat, you're expecting me to engage in blind, unthinking partisanship. Not gonna happen.

Which "meaningful change/adaptation" are you talking about?

Retraining rural workers and adapting rural America to a future-oriented economic strategy, rather than trying to preserve dying industries past their lifespan.

Naturally people hope to avoid anything that looks like "Rural must die".

Literally nobody is arguing that rural America should die. That's a straw man.

[Shalcker]

Nope. Expected and desired outcomes cannot be construed as regulatory failures.

"Expected and desired" by whom exactly, and to what end?

From rural perspective that is regulatory failure. Some regulations existed and worked for quite a while; they were either weakened, stopped being enforced, or new regulation was enacted that stripped control from rural side.

Why they cannot hope to get "expected and desired outcome" like the one put at the end of the article instead if same regulatory path produced desired outcomes for others?

This is capitalism. If you don't think it's great, let's talk about shifting to a different economic model.

Monopolization of markets certainly isn't how ideal capitalism is envisioned, even if actual capitalism pretty much always leans that way.

Where he admits that Biden's platform contains exactly what he's looking for, but dismisses it because it doesn't have a high enough number for him, when those numbers are effectively meaningless and in no way a priority system.

That's a stance that only comes from an assumption that you'll hate a thing no matter what it says.

I feel like you're jumping to conclusions there.

That's your rural Democrat supporter; trying to imagine him equivalent to Trumpster just because you already have that image well-defined is just lazy thinking.

Btw, i got that article from Yang twitter.

Retraining rural workers and adapting rural America to a future-oriented economic strategy, rather than trying to preserve dying industries past their lifespan.

That requires investment into rural internet infrastructure - something article talks about, and that is certainly quite achievable.

There is nothing particularly "dying" about farm industries either - unless you consider every industry where profits are increasingly syphoned away from producers to be "dying" (which i guess would make most of US industry "dying").

[Orange Joe]

Then you need a new plan,

Whats YOUR plan. You talk all this shit how everyone else is wrong. So whats the right answer?

[Endus]

"Expected and desired" by whom exactly, and to what end?

By capitalists, and by anyone who supports a capitalist model (at least, those who understand what capitalism is and how it functions).

From rural perspective that is regulatory failure. Some regulations existed and worked for quite a while; they were either weakened, stopped being enforced, or new regulation was enacted that stripped control from rural side.

From the perspective of some rural people. Those who buy a franchise for Wal-Mart are "rural" just as much as the farmers in their community, y'know.

Why they cannot hope to get "expected and desired outcome" like the one put at the end of the article instead if same regulatory path produced desired outcomes for others?

I'm gonna get repetitive.

Capitalism.

Capitalism is a system whereby those who own the means of production exploit everyone else in the economy for their personal profit.

If you've got an issue with that, you should be opposed to capitalist systems entirely, because that's what every single capitalist system is about.

Monopolization of markets certainly isn't how ideal capitalism is envisioned, even if actual capitalism pretty much always leans that way.

I couldn't give less of a fuck about someone's idealized imaginary theories about how super-duper capitalism could be. I care about real-world facts.

I feel like you're jumping to conclusions there.

That's your rural Democrat supporter; trying to imagine him equivalent to Trumpster just because you already have that image well-defined is just lazy thinking.

I never once said he was the same as a Trump supporter. You're making shit up, at this point.

[Theodarzna]

Whats YOUR plan. You talk all this shit how everyone else is wrong. So whats the right answer?

As was given earlier, a Federal Jobs Program, a Works Progress Admin level but on some serious steroids. Nuclear power plans, and given the rural beauty of the region, radically expanding the parks service and park ranger positions as well. Jobs in those communities with the same level of job security and reliability as had been there before and stuff the towns can center around.

More broadly a recognition of reality, yes we are going to have to acknowledge that NAFTA came at a terrible cost, and the benefits were not evenly distributed and the costs we definitely not evenly shared.

[Machismo]

As was given earlier, a Federal Jobs Program, a Works Progress Admin level but on some serious steroids. Nuclear power plans, and given the rural beauty of the region, radically expanding the parks service and park ranger positions as well. Jobs in those communities with the same level of job security and reliability as had been there before and stuff the towns can center around.

More broadly a recognition of reality, yes we are going to have to acknowledge that NAFTA came at a terrible cost, and the benefits were not evenly distributed and the costs we definitely not evenly shared.

So, instead of learning to code.. you want them to learn to rake the forest?

[Shalcker]

By capitalists, and by anyone who supports a capitalist model (at least, those who understand what capitalism is and how it functions).
From the perspective of some rural people. Those who buy a franchise for Wal-Mart are "rural" just as much as the farmers in their community, y'know.
I'm gonna get repetitive.
Capitalism.
Capitalism is a system whereby those who own the means of production exploit everyone else in the economy for their personal profit.

Even in capitalist system farmers do own means of production.

There is nothing in capitalist mode of operation that requires them to be exploited by multiple middlemen and to be at mercy of agroholding, banks, and seed/equipment companies - they could just as well be the ones exploiting everyone else, hoarding their produce to rise prices while simultaneously enacting prohibitive tariffs on anything produced outside the country (which is hinted upon with that "country of origin" marking mention).

If you've got an issue with that, you should be opposed to capitalist systems entirely, because that's what every single capitalist system is about.

It's quite typical for people who are still hoping to "make it" in a capitalist system to imagine themselves as beneficiaries of it rather then trying to burn it down.

Why exactly do you think they have no future like the one they imagine?

[Orange Joe]

As was given earlier, a Federal Jobs Program, a Works Progress Admin level but on some serious steroids. Nuclear power plans, and given the rural beauty of the region, radically expanding the parks service and park ranger positions as well. Jobs in those communities with the same level of job security and reliability as had been there before and stuff the towns can center around.

More broadly a recognition of reality, yes we are going to have to acknowledge that NAFTA came at a terrible cost, and the benefits were not evenly distributed and the costs we definitely not evenly shared.

So in short. A job training program.... lmfao.....

Leave it to Theo to tell everyone job training is shit only to recommend job training..... I do believe there is a word for this

[beanman12345]

No offense, but retraining programs tend to have a really bad rep as it is.
Most of the time they're attempts at retraining laborers without higher degrees for jobs in which most companies nowadays expect a Bachelor's or Master's degree at minimum.

So, did you ever manage to get over here during the pandemic to illegally vote for your trump god king like you said you were going to?

[Felya]

So in short. A job training program.... lmfao.....

Leave it to Theo to tell everyone job training is shit only to recommend job training..... I do believe there is a word for this

It’s worse... their example is nuclear power plants... this is Simpsons logic... Being a nuclear scientist is harder than learning to code...

[Edge-]

Nuclear power plans, and given the rural beauty of the region

I'm sure those locals will LOVE the federal government coming in and putting a nuclear power plant in their back yard, I hear those are pretty popular. Will it be government-owned? Private? Locally co-op owned?

radically expanding the parks service and park ranger positions as well.

What if they don't want ranger jobs? Aren't those jobs tied to the federal budget anyways, making them far less "secure and reliable" given the whims of the two different parties when it comes to the number of government employees? What if the ranger jobs take them to other parts of the state or country?

Edit: Which region, btw? The midwest? Appalachia? Everywhere across the country so we're not leaving anyone out?

[Felya]

So, did you ever manage to get over here during the pandemic to illegally vote for your trump god king like you said you were going to?

You are like 3 characters behind... if you are going to be gaslit, might as well keep track. lol

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I'm sure those locals will LOVE the federal government coming in and putting a nuclear power plant in their back yard, I hear those are pretty popular. Will it be government-owned? Private? Locally co-op owned?

What if they don't want ranger jobs? Aren't those jobs tied to the federal budget anyways, making them far less "secure and reliable" given the whims of the two different parties when it comes to the number of government employees? What if the ranger jobs take them to other parts of the state or country?

Both Nuclear scientist and park ranger require training.........

[Edge-]

Both Nuclear scientist and park ranger require training.........

Hey, Homer Simpson has done it for decades in The Simpsons and he's an idiot. And Betty Reid Soskin can be a park ranger at 97, so it can't be that hard, right?!

[Theodarzna]

I'm sure those locals will LOVE the federal government coming in and putting a nuclear power plant in their back yard, I hear those are pretty popular. Will it be government-owned? Private? Locally co-op owned?

State, in no way should it be a private thing. And I think they'll love the jobs and a power plant more than "Learn to code, and driver for Uber you fucking hick!" If anything its the more misguided of the Liberals who aren't Atom-Pilled yet. Plus its cleaner than the coal fields. You can sell it if you aren't a patronizing jerk to them.

What if they don't want ranger jobs?

Then they can sell things to people with Ranger jobs, fix the cars of people with ranger and power plant jobs. Not everyone in a town is today SOLELY works in that factory or a steel mill or a mine. The Rangers, Power Plant Operators, the people who like Programming gotta buy food, car repairs and bread at some point.

[...]

What if's are great but I don't believe we should focus on jobs that require degrees to replace jobs that do not need them.

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Hey, Homer Simpson has done it for decades in The Simpsons and he's an idiot. And Betty Reid Soskin can be a park ranger at 97, so it can't be that hard, right?!

A Park ranger job is far easier to get at a Community College than a CC certificate in C# leading to a ritzy job at google.

My other idea is simply tax the people benefiting from NAFTA and give it to those that were sacrificed.

[Felya]

What if's are great but I don't believe we should focus on jobs that require degrees to replace jobs that do not need them.

IT jobs in Poland and India do not require degrees... it’s why outsourcing is slated to grow by nearly 100 billion by 2024. Both park ranger and nuclear scientist, require more training that some IT courses...

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A Park ranger job is far easier to get at a Community College than a CC certificate in C# leading to a ritzy job at google.

There are only 422 national parks in US... and vast majority of IT jobs do not require C#. I’m at senior level in IT, without any degree.

https://www.coursereport.com/blog/ar...camps-worth-it

[Edge-]

State, in no way should it be a private thing. And I think they'll love the jobs and a power plant more than "Learn to code, and driver for Uber you fucking hick!"

It's a good thing that's not, and has never been, the extent of my argument, then!

Also, about those nuclear reactors - https://energynews.us/2020/08/31/mid...uclear-plants/

A report released last week by Moody’s Investor Services found that five of Exelon’s six Illinois plants are at “high risk” and/or more extreme “red flag” risk for both heat and water stress. Exelon’s Quad Cities plant on the Mississippi River, meanwhile, is considered at high risk of flooding.

Other Midwestern plants are also considered at high risk for heat and/or water stress, including the Davis-Besse plant in Ohio, NextEra Energy Resources’ Point Beach plant in Wisconsin, NextEra’s Duane Arnold Energy Center in Iowa, Entergy’s Palisades plant in Michigan and Northern States Power Company’s Monticello plant in Minnesota, which is also at high risk of flooding.

While some of these folks may have higher tolerances for risk, the very real threat of climate change when it comes to nuclear power generation is important to keep in mind.

Also, I don't know why you even mention the gig economy when I've repeatedly, in this thread and others, for months (if not years) expressed my hatred of the gig economy. You keep attacking me for positions I do not, and have ne

Then they can sell things to people with Ranger jobs, fix the cars of people with ranger and power plant jobs.

Oh, so you're talking about bringing in a local industry? What if the tourists don't show up? What if visitors are scarce? Not gonna generate much in the way of revenue with what is realistically, in the current environment, a tourist-focused approach to their economic problems.

This is pretty much the same argument for making third world countries tourist destinations rather than them creating any actual local industries. I guess we're importing exploitative tourist-capitalism now?

What if's are great but I don't believe we should focus on jobs that require degrees to replace jobs that do not need them.

I'll repeat myself for what feels like the millionth time in the past few pages, I've argued in support of the German approach which does not focus purely on academic education. It focuses on education, both academic and trades, while also factoring in apprenticeships to get them the on-the-job training they'll need to enter good jobs (rather than basic entry level low paying jobs) once the training program is completed.

You love to focus on the college thing. It's not just a college thing we're talking about.

A Park ranger job is far easier to get at a Community College than a CC certificate in C# leading to a ritzy job at google.

It is! But what if nobody wants those park ranger jobs?

https://www.payscale.com/research/US..._Ranger/Salary

At a 40K salary average (likely well below that for lower level folks and folks working in more remote/less populated areas), that's not exactly bringing home manufacturing wages, as you've pointed out when it comes to some of the job alternatives I've listed.

My other idea is simply tax the people benefiting from NAFTA and give it to those that were sacrificed.

Why? It's not their fault that POLICY helped them out, why should they be punished? Shouldn't the companies, rather than the employees, be the ones to shoulder those burdens?

[Felya]

There are 422 national parks... what the fuck are 50000 coal miners, turning into new park rangers, who just suffered massive layoffs due to covid, going to do? That’s more than a 100 new park rangers per national park...

I will repeat... there 2.1 million IT jobs... with over 300000 being created per year. There are 6 IT companies, per every coal miner.

422 national parks...

WTF?

[Stormspellz]

Leave it to Theo to tell everyone job training is shit only to recommend job training..... )

I mean if there is a one liner that sums up Theo lately its sure as hell this.

[Felya]

I mean if there is a one liner that sums up Theo lately its sure as hell this.

Let’s spread propaganda about IT, so people stop talking about military complex and big energy.