Should TBC come with a gold wipe? Why or why not?

[Magical Mudcrab]

How can people defend the idea of keeping gold?

There are some players who have hoarded dozens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of gold at this point. That would not only ruin the economy, and keep it from the start in the hands of few, but also completely trivialize or offer unfair advantages to those who will be immediately able to buy epic flier, full tailoring/LW sets etc.

That would be a HUGE deterrent for any new player, and there's a lot that quit classic early because of the boring end-game but would absolutely love to play tbc.

Huge NO

This entire blurb could be applied to the Shadowlands expansion launch, and it would be rightly laughed at. The idea that players should have to sacrifice hundreds of hours of progress going into a new expansion, without warning and without this precedent being set prior to Classic, is insane. It's not fair to the active player base, it's not a reasonable request, and there will be no meaningful change that will occur other than inconveniencing most players.

- - - Updated - - -

I need to be super clear about this when I talk about this subject here. It is not about destroying someone elses work just because they are ahead of me. I am sitting on 15kish gold across all my toons, this change will without a doubt be a negative for me. This is about the health of the game for the majority of players. Your selfishness can actually impact a majority of players experience in this game and actually ruin the game as a whole just because you think you deserve something when in reality you were never promised a thing.

If you look at these issues objectively and not emotionally you might get a better understanding of what is wrong right now.

Your reasoning is flawed. A gold wipe would not curb those who have cash stacks in the tens of thousands from becoming dominant again, all it will do is leave the majority of players without any funds needed in order to participate in the economy effectively. Here is what will happen in TBC: the best farming areas will be held down by the dominant faction, likely shared between a coalition of dominant guilds similarly to the Devilsaur Mafia. All other effective farming spots will be a competition between groups of the minority faction and smaller guilds of the dominant faction. Players who have not hoarded some degree of gold, typically casual players or raid loggers, will be relegated to slow, inefficient farms.

A gold wipe is not going to stop the currently established dominance hierarchies from being reestablished, it's just going to severely penalize players who do not have the fortune of being in a dominant guild or being part of the dominant faction.

[Monster Hunter]

Having discussion =/= getting upset

Nothing more to say to you

clearly you do.

and your not here for a disscussion as you have made obviouse by your responces to those who say people should keep there gold, your here for the same reason 99% of the complainers come here, to try to find validation for your feelings / guage the support for your grivance's, nothing more, because this isnt the offical forums so there nothing to be gained from making this thread other than those 2 stated things.

something understandable if it was about a game that actualy mattered, was competative with a shifting meta, something worth getting that invested in, but your splitting hairs over a 15 year old game's relaunched economy thats in perpetual closed system with a start middle and end, that has nothing difficult or challenging in it, and every one is going to see all the content no matter how they go in, and once the content is consumed it will always just sit there unchanging.

like seriously think about what it exactly is your getting so invested into.

[Synical123]

This entire blurb could be applied to the Shadowlands expansion launch, and it would be rightly laughed at. The idea that players should have to sacrifice hundreds of hours of progress going into a new expansion, without warning and without this precedent being set prior to Classic, is insane. It's not fair to the active player base, it's not a reasonable request, and there will be no meaningful change that will occur other than inconveniencing most players.

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Your reasoning is flawed. A gold wipe would not curb those who have cash stacks in the tens of thousands from becoming dominant again, all it will do is leave the majority of players without any funds needed in order to participate in the economy effectively. Here is what will happen in TBC: the best farming areas will be held down by the dominant faction, likely shared between a coalition of dominant guilds similarly to the Devilsaur Mafia. All other effective farming spots will be a competition between groups of the minority faction and smaller guilds of the dominant faction. Players who have not hoarded some degree of gold, typically casual players or raid loggers, will be relegated to slow, inefficient farms.

A gold wipe is not going to stop the currently established dominance hierarchies from being reestablished, it's just going to severely penalize players who do not have the fortune of being in a dominant guild or being part of the dominant faction.

I think you need to read into what my actual argument is before you start posting something that I never once stated.

I never said this will make it so a couple people aren’t the ‘dominant’ gold acquirers. I honestly don’t even know where you possibly came up with that.

[chrisnumbers]

Here's a question:
Is there any other instance of this happening, whether it be in video games or in real life? I feel like it's impossible to just delete everyone's currency and have it be all good.

I want to play this out:
Let's say for the sake of argument that Blizzard decides they want to delete all gold. They would announce it beforehand, without a doubt, they wouldn't just spring it on us 2 seconds before TBC launch. So they announce gold deletion, say, a few weeks before launch. What happens next? What will the wealthy players do? Do they start turning their gold into items, etc? I imagine a lot of players not taking it lightly and trying to figure out ways around it.

What do you think?

[Relapses]

Here's a question:
Is there any other instance of this happening, whether it be in video games or in real life? I feel like it's impossible to just delete everyone's currency and have it be all good.

I want to play this out:
Let's say for the sake of argument that Blizzard decides they want to delete all gold. They would announce it beforehand, without a doubt, they wouldn't just spring it on us 2 seconds before TBC launch. So they announce gold deletion, say, a few weeks before launch. What happens next? What will the wealthy players do? Do they start turning their gold into items, etc? I imagine a lot of players not taking it lightly and trying to figure out ways around it.

What do you think?

This hasn't ever been a problem in any other expansion because no other expansion has experienced the same levels of ridiculous inflation. That said, there is a solution to the inflation which does allow players to keep their current gold; but it's a phrase so dirty it rocks the Classic community to its core: The WoW token.

[Synical123]

This hasn't ever been a problem in any other expansion because no other expansion has experienced the same levels of ridiculous inflation. That said, there is a solution to the inflation which does allow players to keep their current gold; but it's a phrase so dirty it rocks the Classic community to its core: The WoW token.

I don’t personally see how the wow token fixes the inflation. The wow token basically just says “ok guys everything is basically fucked so we are going to make some money by allowing buying gold to be legal”.

[Relapses]

I don’t personally see how the wow token fixes the inflation. The wow token basically just says “ok guys everything is basically fucked so we are going to make some money by allowing buying gold to be legal”.

If Blizzard doesn't do something about inflation, the only real option for new/returning players will be to buy gold illegally. The WoW token is a lazy compromise that appeases both sides of the argument without actually fixing anything. Perhaps my viewpoint is a bit cynical but the fact that Classic already has a token in China seems to indicate it's not entirely out of the picture.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I think you need to read into what my actual argument is before you start posting something that I never once stated.

I never said this will make it so a couple people aren’t the ‘dominant’ gold acquirers. I honestly don’t even know where you possibly came up with that.

I have read what you've said, but I'll be more explicit. One of the things you've talked about is about how gold is made, such as TBC farming areas being competitive in ways that Classic farms are not; however, this will not be the case in practice. What will happen is that guild coalitions will, as we've seen happen in open world farms in Classic, dominate high-demand areas and deny access to these resources to other guilds, players, and the non dominant faction. The argument for a reset, on this basis, is just an argument to remove people's ability to afford the materials that will be locked down (incl. cross-faction coordination on PvP realms to stop same-faction competition).

The reason why I bring up dominant earners is because they are the ones who are targeted by a gold reset. We can add any false pretense we want, but a discussion of removing gold for the purpose of improving the health of the game is just a discussion of the whether to penalize the players who have earned a lot of gold. It's a silly idea, applicable to any and every expansion that would rightly be laughed at in any other context, and would not improve the health of the game. What's detrimental to the health of the game is the strategies used by the top earning players to earn their money, such as cross faction collaboration and dominating resources, not the gold they have already accrued.

[Synical123]

I have read what you've said, but I'll be more explicit. One of the things you've talked about is about how gold is made, such as TBC farming areas being competitive in ways that Classic farms are not; however, this will not be the case in practice. What will happen is that guild coalitions will, as we've seen happen in open world farms in Classic, dominate high-demand areas and deny access to these resources to other guilds, players, and the non dominant faction. The argument for a reset, on this basis, is just an argument to remove people's ability to afford the materials that will be locked down (incl. cross-faction coordination on PvP realms to stop same-faction competition).

The reason why I bring up dominant earners is because they are the ones who are targeted by a gold reset. We can add any false pretense we want, but a discussion of removing gold for the purpose of improving the health of the game is just a discussion of the whether to penalize the players who have earned a lot of gold. It's a silly idea, applicable to any and every expansion that would rightly be laughed at in any other context, and would not improve the health of the game. What's detrimental to the health of the game is the strategies used by the top earning players to earn their money, such as cross faction collaboration and dominating resources, not the gold they have already accrued.

Ok there is a lot that is wrong with what you’re pushing. I’ll just start off with the fundamental part of my argument because you are missing it.

I’m not solely saying we need the gold reset so new players can go out and farm mats in the world themselves because others won’t have epic flyer. Not even close.

What I’m saying is with a gold wipe, mats will objectively be cheaper, without question. So this opens up different avenues of making gold in order to purchase these goods, such as dailies, or just questing in general. But this ALSO allows players a BETTER chance at farming items themselves without having everyone and their dog having an epic flyer day one. The flying part isn’t the main reason, but it is a reason.

Without the wipe, static gold farms becomes obsolete. Without question. If a primal might costs 400g, doing dailies as your main income become quite literally worthless. SO this would force you out into farming in contested areas, where you are going to be competing against 90% of the players out there with epic flyers. And if you don’t have that epic speed, you won’t be competing at all. So you won’t make money off of mats, you won’t make money off of dailies (relative to what prices would be), so you won’t be participating in the market at all unless you REALLY REALLY grind to get yourself there (or just buy gold illegally which is what is actually going to happen).

Also, just going to point out that these cross faction monopolies you are talking about don’t really happen that often. And blizzard has actually banned quite a few guilds for even attempting to do this (devilsaur gang got slammed multiple times in classic). Also, that issue is literally only limited to pvp servers. Pvp is going to happen on a pvp server. Shocker.

[chrisnumbers]

Without the wipe, static gold farms becomes obsolete. Without question. If a primal might costs 400g, doing dailies as your main income become quite literally worthless.

Although I've leaned a little bit your way, this right here still makes me wonder how much is really gained if all we want to do is stall the purchase of epic* flying mounts. Doing dailies for epic flying doesn't take all that long, I did it a bunch of times.

If it comes down to these 2 scenarios:
a) gold wipe + epic flying takes longer
b) no gold wipe + epic flying is bought instantly by the wealthy but your scraps get sold on the AH for higher
It just seems like tomato-tomahto
I don't think we're gaining as much as you think.

[Synical123]

Although I've leaned a little bit your way, this right here still makes me wonder how much is really gained if all we want to do is stall the purchase of epic* flying mounts. Doing dailies for epic flying doesn't take all that long, I did it a bunch of times.

If it comes down to these 2 scenarios:
a) gold wipe + epic flying takes longer
b) no gold wipe + epic flying is bought instantly by the wealthy but your scraps get sold on the AH for higher
It just seems like tomato-tomahto
I don't think we're gaining as much as you think.

My main goal isn’t stalling the purchase of epic flyer. I’m saying it’s one of them. And it isn’t just to ‘stall’ it. My main goal is to allow new players to participate in the market, because without a wipe it’s going to be extremely difficult to buy or farm for high quality items like primal mights, explained here

Without the wipe, static gold farms becomes obsolete. Without question. If a primal might costs 400g, doing dailies as your main income become quite literally worthless. SO this would force you out into farming in contested areas, where you are going to be competing against 90% of the players out there with epic flyers. And if you don’t have that epic speed, you won’t be competing at all. So you won’t make money off of mats, you won’t make money off of dailies (relative to what prices would be), so you won’t be participating in the market at all unless you REALLY REALLY grind to get yourself there (or just buy gold illegally which is what is actually going to happen).

My main point here was with a gold wipe, new players can purchase goods off the AH with other avenues of farming gold, like dailies. Without a wipe, you are handcuffing them to mat farming. But then I mention that not only are you forcing them to mat farm, but the mat farm is going to be infinitely harder for them than vets.

But if you want to focus on the flyer then think of it like this, it’s not about delaying it, it’s about allowing everyone to have the opportunity to earn it at more ‘equal’ time. But even still, without the flyer you will still be able to earn more gold relative to the economy through things like dailies. That was my point.

[durenas]

My main goal isn’t stalling the purchase of epic flyer. I’m saying it’s one of them. And it isn’t just to ‘stall’ it. My main goal is to allow new players to participate in the market, because without a wipe it’s going to be extremely difficult to buy or farm for high quality items like primal mights, explained here



My main point here was with a gold wipe, new players can purchase goods off the AH with other avenues of farming gold, like dailies. Without a wipe, you are handcuffing them to mat farming. But then I mention that not only are you forcing them to mat farm, but the mat farm is going to be infinitely harder for them than vets.

But if you want to focus on the flyer then think of it like this, it’s not about delaying it, it’s about allowing everyone to have the opportunity to earn it at more ‘equal’ time. But even still, without the flyer you will still be able to earn more gold relative to the economy through things like dailies. That was my point.

These new players have the opportunity. Right now. There is no better time to roll a new toon on classic.

[Synical123]

These new players have the opportunity. Right now. There is no better time to roll a new toon on classic.

This is a silly, silly, thing to suggest. I don’t even need to waste my time on this. “Want to be decent at a classic version of the expansion you liked? Yeah sorry you should have played the version that you really don’t like if you want to experience it again”. In a real, progressive mmo, this makes sense. Not in a remake. Sorry bud.

[durenas]

This is a silly, silly, thing to suggest. I don’t even need to waste my time on this. “Want to be decent at a classic version of the expansion you liked? Yeah sorry you should have played the version that you really don’t like if you want to experience it again”. In a real, progressive mmo, this makes sense. Not in a remake. Sorry bud.

You snooze, you lose. Don't try to legislate victory when you've already lost.

[Synical123]

You snooze, you lose. Don't try to legislate victory when you've already lost.

I lost? That’s funny because I have two level 60 characters ready for tbc with epic riding and around 8ish thousands gold each. I’m doing just fine.

I know this might sound crazy, but sometimes people can want a change to the game even if it negatively effects them.

[durenas]

I lost? That’s funny because I have two level 60 characters ready for tbc with epic riding and around 8ish thousands gold each. I’m doing just fine.

I know this might sound crazy, but sometimes people can want a change to the game even if it negatively effects them.

You're right, it does sound crazy. So crazy, that I legitimately doubt you're being honest. However, it doesn't really matter whether you're being truthful or not, because what you're proposing will never happen. This is not the first time that Blizzard has had to deal with runaway inflation in WoW. It happened in WoD with garrisons, just to use one very big example. Blizzard did eventually take away the things people were using to earn money, but they didn't actually take away anyone's gold(unless it was obviously exploiting broken unintended behavior, for example, there was a brief duping scandal that got axed).

Blizzard knows that players legitimately don't like it when they lose something they've worked hard for. You see all the complaints that players make about Legion Artifacts going away - or losing Azerite powers from BFA. The constant memes about temporary expansion powers. Blizzard was always upfront that these were temporary, and we had plenty of warning that they were going to go away, so we've gotten used to it. But gold? Never. Blizzard solves inflation problems by providing new sinks, not by just deleting currency. And the idea that it would be okay to delete players' hard earned gold in classic, because somehow it's not a real game like retail, 'just a remake', so players aren't as attached? That's garbage. Time is money, and I spent the same amount of time earning gold in classic as I could have in retail. It's just as real to me.

Blizzard is no stranger to making hard decisions for the overall health of the game, but resetting all gold to zero would not help the game. The reset would alienate players, be strictly temporary(because we'd have all that gold back within weeks) and ultimately solve nothing. There will always be players joining the game for the first time. These inequalities won't just go away because gold has an expiry date attached to it.

Anyway, I applaud you for being willing to give up your 16000 gold at the beginning of TBC. I look forward to your video of you deleting your gold.

[Magical Mudcrab]

What I’m saying is with a gold wipe, mats will objectively be cheaper, without question. So this opens up different avenues of making gold in order to purchase these goods, such as dailies, or just questing in general. But this ALSO allows players a BETTER chance at farming items themselves without having everyone and their dog having an epic flyer day one. The flying part isn’t the main reason, but it is a reason.

Without the wipe, static gold farms becomes obsolete. Without question. If a primal might costs 400g, doing dailies as your main income become quite literally worthless. SO this would force you out into farming in contested areas, where you are going to be competing against 90% of the players out there with epic flyers. And if you don’t have that epic speed, you won’t be competing at all. So you won’t make money off of mats, you won’t make money off of dailies (relative to what prices would be), so you won’t be participating in the market at all unless you REALLY REALLY grind to get yourself there (or just buy gold illegally which is what is actually going to happen).

Also, just going to point out that these cross faction monopolies you are talking about don’t really happen that often. And blizzard has actually banned quite a few guilds for even attempting to do this (devilsaur gang got slammed multiple times in classic). Also, that issue is literally only limited to pvp servers. Pvp is going to happen on a pvp server. Shocker.

The problem I'm having is that this does not seem an accurate representation of what will occur. We have no basis on which to believe that players who were not competitive in Classic will somehow be competitive in TBC, especially when the farms are more open to exploitation from open-world groups in TBC, especially on PvP servers. Dailies won't become a viable source of income, regardless of whether a gold reset occurs, as all that is going to happen is that players will move from material farming to exploiting raw gold farming to get their 280% flying speedaw. The few players who do not have the ability to acquire the gold ahead of time are not going to be any better off, they're just going to have no gold going into TBC.

Regarding coalitions, this is not restricted to pvp servers, anly cross-faction enforcement groups are restricted in this way. I should also note that the devilsaur mafia, and other cross-faction coalitions, did not have meaningful action taken against them. Cross-faction collusion has not been against the ToS for years. The only reason they ended up falling apart was due to (1) prices falling as the gear was no longer the best available, (2) Blizzard reducing the spawn time of the devilsaurs, increasing the leathers availability. The coalitions were not dealt with using bans, they were dealt with by making a failing market less profitable.

[Seranthor]

Although I've leaned a little bit your way, this right here still makes me wonder how much is really gained if all we want to do is stall the purchase of epic* flying mounts. Doing dailies for epic flying doesn't take all that long, I did it a bunch of times.

If it comes down to these 2 scenarios:
a) gold wipe + epic flying takes longer
b) no gold wipe + epic flying is bought instantly by the wealthy but your scraps get sold on the AH for higher
It just seems like tomato-tomahto
I don't think we're gaining as much as you think.

The gold sellers will make a fortune, and absolutely support the idea of a gold wipe.

[VinceVega]

These new players have the opportunity. Right now. There is no better time to roll a new toon on classic.

Nah i despise classic. Horrible game (imho before someone jumps at my throat)
But i loved BC. Having to play classic and farm money like a madman just so i can keep up in any way with the moneybanks in BC... noooooooo....

I will try BC. If i turns out that the inflation si just too strong and i have no way in catching up i will just quit again. No resaon to play a game i have no way ever to catch up to majority of players.

In vanilla that was not a big problem as nearly all poeple did not have this kind of money.

[Outofmana]

I cba to farm motes on a 10x higher pop server than back in the day, no gold wipe please.

Don't see the deal with people getting epic mount instantly, you can put in all the work now for TBC as you could in ph1, it's actually healthy for classic guilds/communities if people keep playing from naxx release until TBC aquiring more gold that they can bring into TBC. If anything, a 10k max gold per account might get rid of some of the excesses, but even that would screw over legitimate farmers, having farmed 4k in dm east the past 2 weeks already.

Economy gets ruined anyway from botting within a month, no matter what you'd do.

The only part of WoW that needs a true goldwipe + soulbind all inventories on expansion release is retail.