Should TBC come with a gold wipe? Why or why not?

[Eternal2u]

no because then youll have to limit the items you can carry over so they dont just liqudate in valuable or preceived valueable item.

Also the gold inflation in tbc will fix some of the rich vs poor mentality in classic right now and allow people gold to actually spend on things

[Relapses]

All of you arguing for a gold wipe ignore this: You want to talk away gold from people who have legitimately earned it for one of two reasons that have been put here: 1) You think the game will be 'better' in some way or 2) you think there's gold farmers who have illegitimately gotten tons of gold (vs people who farm for gold by playing and don't sell it, etc).

You haven't, though, made any compelling argument for stealing the gold of tens, probably hundreds of thousands players. For the first case, arguing for a wipe is arrogant - your way idea of a better game is more important that the work all those people legitimately put in to get gold. In the second case, you simply don't know the scale of the issue. No. Stop. You don't. No one outside of Blizz does. Your anecdotes are not data.

"But instead of wiping we could allow people to take over X gold" fails too. You're again arguing that some people should lose they work they put in, you're just reducing that number. At the end of the day, you have no right to steal the efforts of tens or hundreds of thousands of people.

"I don't like arguments that disagree with what I think therefore they're wrong."

Nice argument, dude. Pretending there isn't a problem is the exact reason this discussion has reached 20+ pages.

[Synical123]

"I don't like arguments that disagree with what I think therefore they're wrong."

Nice argument, dude. Pretending there isn't a problem is the exact reason this discussion has reached 20+ pages.

My favorite part of these post are they always say “you haven’t made any compelling arguments” when there’s literally 20 pages worth of just that. And the only thing the other side has to say is “it’s bad because my gold goes away”.

[Seranthor]

All of you arguing for a gold wipe ignore this: You want to talk away gold from people who have legitimately earned it for one of two reasons that have been put here: 1) You think the game will be 'better' in some way or 2) you think there's gold farmers who have illegitimately gotten tons of gold (vs people who farm for gold by playing and don't sell it, etc).

You haven't, though, made any compelling argument for stealing the gold of tens, probably hundreds of thousands players. For the first case, arguing for a wipe is arrogant - your way idea of a better game is more important that the work all those people legitimately put in to get gold. In the second case, you simply don't know the scale of the issue. No. Stop. You don't. No one outside of Blizz does. Your anecdotes are not data.

"But instead of wiping we could allow people to take over X gold" fails too. You're again arguing that some people should lose they work they put in, you're just reducing that number. At the end of the day, you have no right to steal the efforts of tens or hundreds of thousands of people.

I especially love the ones that bleet But but but the 'health of the game',
and the ones that throw up 'the gold farmers are going to need to find 'new' places to farm gold'... no, they'll return to the places they used during TBC.

The undeniable fact is the faction that advocates for a gold wipe believe they have the right to decide not only their fate, but everyone elses.

The irony is that none of us even know 1) if TBC Classic is even going to exist; and 2) If transfers are even going to be allowed.

we are at 20 pages because the PTBs allow it.

[Multitorix Davlen]

This'll probably be the only thing ill be a #nochanges person about. It has also probably also been said before in the thread, but im not gunna sift through 20+ pages to see who did. There wasn't a gold wipe going from original vanilla to original tbc. Why should there be one going from classic to tbc classic.

[roboscorcher]

"Big agree on the gold wipe! Here's my thoughts:

- Existing chars can remain on amalgamated Classic servers.
- You can copy as many chars over as you want, but only once (perhaps determined by a new boolean field on the account record).
- Only soulbound items transfer, and they have a sell value of 0 bronze when vendored (another boolean field).
- Close any other loopholes people find for turning soulbound items into quick gold."



None of this is any good.
The best solution is to do nothing. Just turn on TBC and off we go.

I'm guessing you farmed lots of gold and think you deserve an advantage in TBC. If so, realize that gold farmers will have a MUCH bigger advantage, and the TBC economy will start off just as horribly broken as it is now.

- - - Updated - - -

This'll probably be the only thing ill be a #nochanges person about. It has also probably also been said before in the thread, but im not gunna sift through 20+ pages to see who did. There wasn't a gold wipe going from original vanilla to original tbc. Why should there be one going from classic to tbc classic.

Because gold farming is much bigger industry now, and Blizz has shown they have no way of stopping it in Classic. Most current Classic players buy gold now, especially GDKP players. And because there is demand, there is a heavy incentive for botters. There are Youtube videos showing botters straight up flying in Classic dungeons. What makes you think they will pack up their bags when TBC rolls out?

A gold wipe allows real players a few weeks of enjoying a fresh economy until the bots start influencing everything again.

[Kralljin]

Why should there be one going from classic to tbc classic.

1.People have acquired far more gold in Classic than in Vanilla, thus turning benchmarks like epic flying into something most have on day one.
2.Gold is far more relevant due to very powerful craftable items (where gold is the factually a massive gatekeeper)
3.Sparse existence of instanced farming for those relevant materials, leading to even more overcrowded farmspots outdoors
4.People have abused Layering in order to acquire massive amounts of golds (Black Lotus layer hopping for example)
5.Goldsellers have ludicrous amounts of gold at the ready, which would heavily fuck their business, as they would have to start from scratch.

Nobody is pretending that botting or goldselling is an issue that gets magically resolved by this, but saying there should be no goldwipe because of botters is like giving criminals a bonus for robbing a bank, "because they'd do it regardless".

The irony is that none of us even know 1) if TBC Classic is even going to exist

Brack even said in the latest Investor's call that they have plans for the future of Classic, what do you think that will be, Classic+?

[Magical Mudcrab]

1.People have acquired far more gold in Classic than in Vanilla, thus turning benchmarks like epic flying into something most have on day one.
2.Gold is far more relevant due to very powerful craftable items (where gold is the factually a massive gatekeeper)
3.Sparse existence of instanced farming for those relevant materials, leading to even more overcrowded farmspots outdoors
4.People have abused Layering in order to acquire massive amounts of golds (Black Lotus layer hopping for example)
5.Goldsellers have ludicrous amounts of gold at the ready, which would heavily fuck their business, as they would have to start from scratch.

Nobody is pretending that botting or goldselling is an issue that gets magically resolved by this, but saying there should be no goldwipe because of botters is like giving criminals a bonus for robbing a bank, "because they'd do it regardless".

1) Whether or not there is more gold in circulation is not only is it not something which has never in the history of the game ever been accounted for, it also simply does not address the issues that people think it does. Gold farms in TBC can range upwards into the thousands of gold per hour, such as in the case of the Primal Fire farms. Dedicated players will trivialize flying, regardless.
2) This is not a reason why to perform a gold wipe. Players who have large sums of gold have always been able to afford the best preparation gear, whether it be craftables, BoE epics, etc., and this has always conferred some benefits on them; however, it's not required for raiding or necessary to access any content.
3) The best farm spots, like in Classic, will be controlled by coalitions of players, with cross-faction collusion on PvP servers making it nearly impossible for solo players to farm any materials.
4) And people will be abusing layering in TBC, which will likely make a comeback for the start to handle player load, in order to make money. Whether it was abused once already does not matter, especially when the TBC gold farms are so much more profitable.
5) Botters and goldsellers don't lose from this, they would retain the gold on classic and sell that at the same price; however, they then focus their efforts on TBC. With all gold drained from the economy, gold's price will rise due to lack of supply. The less gold there is, the more gold costs. This is why the price of gold has always trended downwards, as it has become more ubiquitous.

[Kralljin]

1) Whether or not there is more gold in circulation is not only is it not something which has never in the history of the game ever been accounted for, it also simply does not address the issues that people think it does.

Considering they stopped doing anything with gold, barring Goldsinks and the odd BoE's, i think their design has accounted that.
People weren't lying when they said "Gold is a much bigger deal in Classic", because it is.

2) This is not a reason why to perform a gold wipe. Players who have large sums of gold have always been able to afford the best preparation gear, whether it be craftables, BoE epics, etc., and this has always conferred some benefits on them; however, it's not required for raiding or necessary to access any content.

Comparing TBC craftables to BoE is faulty, Frozen Shadowweave set lasts into BT for Warlocks, BoE are being discarded once you enter Heroic of the very first raid.

The argument "It's not necessary" is also terrible, you don't need 10+ Warriors either, yet turns out that raids stack them for some reason.

3) The best farm spots, like in Classic, will be controlled by coalitions of players, with cross-faction collusion on PvP servers making it nearly impossible for solo players to farm any materials.

Imagine the prices for Arcane Crystals, Gromsblood, Ghost Mushrooms or Dreamveil if DM:E was nonexistant and you sure as shit can't "control" DM:E.

That aside, i think it will be difficult to control these spots because of how many players will be pushing into them.
Mind you, no special skill is necessary to farm Primals, people who don't have skinning wouldn't farm Devilsaurs, same goes for Black Lotus.

It works in Classic because of isolated those single players that actually farm those, if you have 10-20 people hopping around on the Elemental Plateau, you need more than just 2-3 people to drive them off.

4) And people will be abusing layering in TBC, which will likely make a comeback for the start to handle player load, in order to make money. Whether it was abused once already does not matter, especially when the TBC gold farms are so much more profitable.

Putting that on the same level as Black Lotus is downright dishonest.

In Classic, you needed to loot a single herb, in TBC for layer abuse to you need to kill +10 Elemental mobs, takes a lot more time and leaves much more room for competition to arrive.
Not to mention that those farmspots will be pretty crowded from day one as leveling takes nowhere near as long as in Classic, whereas the high level zones (where Black Lotus actually spawned) were relatively sparse during the first days / weeks, but still layered because Layering is a (game)worldwide thing, not a zonewide thing.

This even disregards the fact that Layerhopping has been fixed a few weeks after release.

5) Botters and goldsellers don't lose from this, they would retain the gold on classic and sell that at the same price; however, they then focus their efforts on TBC.

Imagine for a moment what will happen with the goldprice the moment Blizzard announces that you can't take your gold with you into TBC.
It will drop through the floor, because people don't have any interest in buying a currency they are about to lose in a few months.

[Seranthor]

Brack even said in the latest Investor's call that they have plans for the future of Classic, what do you think that will be, Classic+?

I learned years ago not to assume anything with Blizzard, that way I am never disappointed.

[Kralljin]

I learned years ago not to assume anything with Blizzard, that way I am never disappointed.

When it makes them money, they will deliver.

The question is rather, what quality does the delivered good have.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Considering they stopped doing anything with gold, barring Goldsinks and the odd BoE's, i think their design has accounted that.
People weren't lying when they said "Gold is a much bigger deal in Classic", because it is.

Sure, but you're moving into an expansion that trivializes the gold earnings from prior farms. It's literally just cutting off your nose to spite your face, as you remove everyone's gold for the hopes of creating a level playing field, which will really just be dedicated players farming thousands of gold in optimal farms to recoup their losses, and casual players will be relegated to having to perform less viable farms, essentially making them non-competitive and with no resources to fallback on.

Comparing TBC craftables to BoE is faulty, Frozen Shadowweave set lasts into BT for Warlocks, BoE are being discarded once you enter Heroic of the very first raid.

The argument "It's not necessary" is also terrible, you don't need 10+ Warriors either, yet turns out that raids stack them for some reason.

It matters whether or not its necessary because it's not a barrier to entry. Acting like it is necessary when you can get along with heroic items and simply follow alternate gearing progression paths is being disingenuous. Additionally, you're comparing the actions of what tryhard speed runners do with what casual players/guilds do and acting like casual guilds must always perform at the same level and have the same requirements. What is going to happen is the guilds that care about speedrunning that use the 10+ warriors and are dedicated enough will have the resources for player craftables, regardless of gold wipe. The only group that will feel the loss are casual, less dedicated players.

Imagine the prices for Arcane Crystals, Gromsblood, Ghost Mushrooms or Dreamveil if DM:E was nonexistant and you sure as shit can't "control" DM:E.

That aside, i think it will be difficult to control these spots because of how many players will be pushing into them.
Mind you, no special skill is necessary to farm Primals, people who don't have skinning wouldn't farm Devilsaurs, same goes for Black Lotus.

It works in Classic because of isolated those single players that actually farm those, if you have 10-20 people hopping around on the Elemental Plateau, you need more than just 2-3 people to drive them off.

I'm obviously not referring to instanced farms being controlled, and any good faith reading would understand that. But do you genuinely think that gold farms within the thousands of gold/hour won't be controlled in similar ways to the Devilsaur mafia? We have seen degenerate player behaviour in which farms have been locked down for days on end, cross faction collusion, and price fixing for profitable, distributed farms. Centralized farms are not just going to be "2-3 people", it's going to be dozens of speedrunners and goldsellers working together, across faction, as we have seen happen in Classic. Assuming this won't happen is expecting something which goes against known player behaviour, especially in a community that will blacklist players for doing too many BGs and aren't a part of a PvP community.

Putting that on the same level as Black Lotus is downright dishonest.

In Classic, you needed to loot a single herb, in TBC for layer abuse to you need to kill +10 Elemental mobs, takes a lot more time and leaves much more room for competition to arrive.
Not to mention that those farmspots will be pretty crowded from day one as leveling takes nowhere near as long as in Classic, whereas the high level zones (where Black Lotus actually spawned) were relatively sparse during the first days / weeks, but still layered because Layering is a (game)worldwide thing, not a zonewide thing.

I'm not putting it on the same level as black lotus because the gp/h of black lotus is so low that it's not worth doing unless you are a bot, which is why special precautions were taken to make it harder for bots.

Imagine for a moment what will happen with the goldprice the moment Blizzard announces that you can't take your gold with you into TBC.
It will drop through the floor, because people don't have any interest in buying a currency they are about to lose in a few months.

Sure, a short-term reduction in gold prices on Classic, which wont matter because the people will be leaving the game. Those who remain will not have the hundreds of thousands of gold that will be left to rot as players leave for TBC; however, what will occur, is a massive inflation of gold prices on TBC due to lack of supply, and botters will be heavily incentivized to transition.

[Kralljin]

Sure, but you're moving into an expansion that trivializes the gold earnings from prior farms.

Calling TBC farms "trivial" is bogus.
Especially the introduction of the AoE Cap makes any form of rawgold farming much more difficult (if there are even possible spots to abuse like Classic).

It matters whether or not its necessary because it's not a barrier to entry.

Considering that virtually everything will be inflated, including consumables and whatnot, it will be a lot more difficult for people who don't have thousands of gold.

Of course, you keep saying "It's not necessary", but so are consumables or enchants in Classic, yet people still demand them.

I'm obviously not referring to instanced farms being controlled, and any good faith reading would understand that. But do you genuinely think that gold farms within the thousands of gold/hour won't be controlled in similar ways to the Devilsaur mafia?

Considering Blizzard killed the Devilsaur mafia by increasing the spawnrate (same goes for Lotus), i doubt it.

Not to mention that i am curious what sort of material you want to "control", both Devilsaur and Black Lotus were primarily possible because of their abysmal spawnrates within a rather small area.
I've already stated above why "controlling" Primals is damn difficult, especially on larger servers because there are way too many competitors.

Sure, a short-term reduction in gold prices on Classic, which wont matter because the people will be leaving the game. Those who remain will not have the hundreds of thousands of gold that will be left to rot as players leave for TBC; however, what will occur

I don't see any point in bringing up the situation of the Classic servers, those have nothing to do with the situation at hand.

what will occur, is a massive inflation of gold prices on TBC due to lack of supply, and botters will be heavily incentivized to transition.

1.That "Inflation" will occur regardless, because Gold will be in much higher demand than now in late Classic
2.Those bots need to farm gold first
3.Instanced farming isn't as lucrative (fewer sought after materials + lower mob density), thus bots will focus more on the outdoor world, where they face competition and are more prone to reporting
4.As if those bots wouldn't follow into TBC anyway

Botting isn't going anywhere, but if you allow goldsellers to take their gold into TBC, it'll be like a "welcoming" gift to them, because they don't even need to invest anything, they just need to sell already farmed goods.

[Autoriot]

I'd tend to agree, but only if going to TBC is an optional copy.

If they force every server over and classic ceases to exist, only TBC classic, then that's a different ballgame for me. For many people, there wasn't much to do in classic, so for whatever reason, they farmed gold. You can say what you want, but that effort was put in, and it should carry over - if people don't like it, then they should've farmed too.

If it's an optional copy, and that optional copy wipes the gold, then fine. You can say "you grinded gold in classic, and you have the choice to keep that gold in classic."

This 100%.
Keep your gear from your hard work (hey, it won't get replaced anytime soon and can really speed up leveling) but set a medium gold cap if that copy over is optional.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Calling TBC farms "trivial" is bogus.
Especially the introduction of the AoE Cap makes any form of rawgold farming much more difficult (if there are even possible spots to abuse like Classic).

If you think I'm calling TBC farms trivial, you did not read what I said. TBC farms trivializes the gold earned from Classic farms. To be clearer, TBC farms make so much more gold than Classic farms, the gold made from Classic by high-end players will seem like trivial accomplishments.

Considering that virtually everything will be inflated, including consumables and whatnot, it will be a lot more difficult for people who don't have thousands of gold.

Of course, you keep saying "It's not necessary", but so are consumables or enchants in Classic, yet people still demand them.

Consumables and enchantments are not demanded by most guilds, though they are typically preferred and incentivized. Moreover, guilds will typically help their members afford basic necessities, such as potions, enchantments, etc. That said, you're comparing apples and oranges in this circumstance. Though I disagree that they won't be accessible, you're trying to equate not having something, or not having access to something, with alternate gearing/progression paths. These are dissimilar things.

Considering Blizzard killed the Devilsaur mafia by increasing the spawnrate (same goes for Lotus), i doubt it.

Not to mention that i am curious what sort of material you want to "control", both Devilsaur and Black Lotus were primarily possible because of their abysmal spawnrates within a rather small area.
I've already stated above why "controlling" Primals is damn difficult, especially on larger servers because there are way too many competitors.

Yes, Blizzard can preemptively kill any farm they want, but relying on this to try and form some utopian ideal is silly. It took them over a year of player feedback before they took action against the Devilsaur Mafia, which only expedited the death of an already dying farm, and Lotus bots were only dealt with because bots were camping the spawns.

Regarding the controlling of resources, coalitions are typically between the top guilds. You are injecting competitors where none will reasonably exist. Same-faction competition will lead to blacklisting and getting priced out of the market, as what happened with people who tried to compete with Devilsaur farms. On PvE servers, there will be some competition, but PvP servers will have rotations between the factions.

Regarding the specific farms, they were controlled in different ways.
Devilsaurs were centralized un Un'goro, but they were incredibly spread out. This is why kill rotations and timers were used to track which location you had to be and when. Contrast this to, for example, mote farms (with the exception of water), whose mobs are incredibly centralized in a few areas (i.e.: Primal Fire; Throne of Kil'jaeden, Elemental Plateau, etc.). These small areas are much easier to lock down, especially as in TBC any individual area could easily be dominated by a few mages doing AoE farms.
Lotus was just exploited. This was never a farm in the same way that typical herb farming is done, this was just people dying near nodes and waiting to corpse rez once it spawned. The reason no one could compete is due to bots sitting at these spawn locations and automatically picking the herb.

I don't see any point in bringing up the situation of the Classic servers, those have nothing to do with the situation at hand.

You brought up what would happen to gold prices on Classic servers, saying it would drop through the floor. Why bring up a point and then question why it is responded to?

1.That "Inflation" will occur regardless, because Gold will be in much higher demand than now in late Classic
2.Those bots need to farm gold first
3.Instanced farming isn't as lucrative (fewer sought after materials + lower mob density), thus bots will focus more on the outdoor world, where they face competition and are more prone to reporting

Botting isn't going anywhere, but if you allow goldsellers to take their gold into TBC, it'll be like a "welcoming" gift to them, because they don't even need to invest anything, they just need to sell already farmed goods.

No, the welcoming gift is reducing gold in circulation when gold sellers will have access to better farming methods. All that will happen is there will be less gold in circulation, increasing the value of gold at the start of the expansion and making the gold they can acquire more valuable. You don't seem to understand that gold sellers aren't just some small group in the Classic community. They frequently buy gold from and work with active players, and were one of the groups behind established farms like the Devilsaur Mafia, establishing legitimate farms of players to passively farm gold for them.

[Seranthor]

When it makes them money, they will deliver.

The question is rather, what quality does the delivered good have.

A very good question indeed.

[Kralljin]

If you think I'm calling TBC farms trivial, you did not read what I said. TBC farms trivializes the gold earned from Classic farms. To be clearer, TBC farms make so much more gold than Classic farms, the gold made from Classic by high-end players will seem like trivial accomplishments.

Anything that doesn't generate rawgold is utterly irrelevant in this context, because anything else has relative value.
You can't make thousands of gold early on in an economy right after a blank slate, because people don't have the money to buy those sorts of things.

Your reasoning is based to operating on an inflated economy, meaning you have to sell reagents to the people who have the gold, and if you don't do that, you're royally fucked because everything is inflated.

Consumables and enchantments are not demanded by most guilds, though they are typically preferred and incentivized. Moreover, guilds will typically help their members afford basic necessities, such as potions, enchantments

Guilds providing enchants and comsumables to ALL of their members being a common thing is new to me.

Especially in an enviroment where those things are a lot more costly.

Though I disagree that they won't be accessible, you're trying to equate not having something, or not having access to something, with alternate gearing/progression paths. These are dissimilar things.

If people cannot engage with the server economy in a reasonable manner, then it's going to cause disstatisfaction.

Regarding the specific farms, they were controlled in different ways.
Devilsaurs were centralized un Un'goro, but they were incredibly spread out. This is why kill rotations and timers were used to track which location you had to be and when. Contrast this to, for example, mote farms (with the exception of water), whose mobs are incredibly centralized in a few areas (i.e.: Primal Fire; Throne of Kil'jaeden, Elemental Plateau, etc.). These small areas are much easier to lock down, especially as in TBC any individual area could easily be dominated by a few mages doing AoE farms.

The difference that you keep ignoring is that too many people want a slice of that pie.
I told you already: Barely anyone could compete with the Devilsaur Mafia because they couldn't skin Devilsaurs, so there are only a handful of people to begin with that might actually compete with them.
It's not like every Warrior has skinning and wants to farm them all by themselves, because only a few people have skinning to begin with.

Primals however, can be farmed by everybody, meaning that the entire server presses into there, meaning you just don't fight against some isolated stragglers but almost the entire server.

"Locking down" those places as a minority group (which the "Mafia" always is) is going to require extreme manpower, dedication and time, at which point it is more than questionable whether it's actually economically feasible to do so, especially for an extended period.
Devilsaur works because few people are involved, the more people are involved, the more difficult it gets to maintain the whole thing.

You brought up what would happen to gold prices on Classic servers, saying it would drop through the floor. Why bring up a point and then question why it is responded to?

Except that your response has nothing to do with it?
If Blizzard announces a gold wipe, Goldsellers won't be able to sell the gold they have in store at current going rates, the prices will drop heavily, hence that will be bad business for them.

No, the welcoming gift is reducing gold in circulation when gold sellers will have access to better farming methods.

Yeah, months of work getting deleted, that will surely bounce back.

The assumption that they will come out ahead is a massive speculation on your part.

[perkocet]

We really aren't even trying to pretend to want no changes for this one, huh? Nice, saves energy

[Kralljin]

We really aren't even trying to pretend to want no changes for this one, huh? Nice, saves energy

Haven't seen a lot of people even asking for nochanges in regards to TBC.

Except this topic, ironically.

[roboscorcher]

This 100%.
Keep your gear from your hard work (hey, it won't get replaced anytime soon and can really speed up leveling) but set a medium gold cap if that copy over is optional.

Problem with medium gold cap is that botters and gold sellers can work around it to transfer all their gold. It's as simple as mailing the capped amount to other characters, and their mailing it all back to the main account in TBC.

The only fair way to do the wipe is: only Soulbound items transfer, and they have no vendor value. I support this solution, under the pretext of copying our chars to TBC servers, instead of converting existing servers.