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  1. #41
    Weaker than UI Goku for sure.

  2. #42
    Not strong enough to avoid being a raid boss. At least he is final boss-tier, so he's probably close to: Arthas, Lei Shen, the Elemental Lords, Xavius, Azshara, KJ/Archimonde in terms of power level.

    Argus would have swept the floor with Denathrius, as would the other Titans in their prime.

    And I'm starting to think Elune is probably a First One.

  3. #43
    The "First Ones" is such a boring name compared to the "Titans". It's like they only thought about it for 5 mins before they decided on that name.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfighter101 View Post
    The Winter Queen, while reviving Ysera, says the dragon is 'of my sisters creation' referring to Eonar. This indicates that the shadowlands pantheon and the cosmic pantheon are the same level of power. Denathrius would be like sargeras pre-corruption
    I think it may be referring to Elune, which may or may not be a "creation" of Eonar. To be honest, a lot of this stuff seems to be getting increasingly vague, and I'm beginning to question the intent behind these decision, like introducing "another Pantheon"...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I think it may be referring to Elune, which may or may not be a "creation" of Eonar. To be honest, a lot of this stuff seems to be getting increasingly vague, and I'm beginning to question the intent behind these decision, like introducing "another Pantheon"...
    Wow has been out for a very long time, so blizzard has to recycle ideas. The Jailer being the biggest culprit, as he is almost literally another version of Sargeras, just an underworld version.

  6. #46
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Not raid-ending but didn't Kargath from Highmaul run away before Mythic in Beta before being changed to outright dying in all difficulty versions as an example?
    IIRC, yes.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryonas View Post
    Her sister is Eonar, not Elune.
    AFAIK the theory is that Ysera and Elune is a connection that's unique, while Eonar empowered both Ysera and Alexstrasza (and other titans empowered other aspects); so if anything she'd be "one of her [Eonar's] pets" rather than just THE pet, as the Winter Queen seems to imply. Furthermore, if Eonar was her sister that would mean the Winter Queen is also a titan, and born of a world soul. But it seems rather odd to refer to someone as "sister" if they're born of different planets (no titans refer to each other as siblings afaik?). Whereas with Elune, we know nothing about how she came to be and a "sister" might perhaps make more sense there.

  8. #48
    Bout as powerful as 'A' Titan. What Titan? Who knows. A Titan.

  9. #49
    I'd say Titan Level, maybe above it with the Anima amps, as well as the amps from the Jailer. The other Eternal Ones are probably weaker than Titans atm because of the Anima drought, such as the Winter Queen. Then again, Titans can be weakened by similar affects aswell regarding their cosmic powers, with the Fel and whatnot.

    I'd say, at their prime, the Eternal Ones are Titan Level, as stated in some interviews, but with the drought, they're heavily weaker than they usually are.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfighter101 View Post
    The Winter Queen, while reviving Ysera, says the dragon is 'of my sisters creation' referring to Eonar. This indicates that the shadowlands pantheon and the cosmic pantheon are the same level of power. Denathrius would be like sargeras pre-corruption
    We don't know if she meant Eonar or Elune. While The Winter Queen is in the pantheon of death there's nothing to say her soul is that of a titan.

    Ysera has though had great interactions with Elune, fostering her child (Cenarius), favouring Elune's worshippers, her soul on death being rescued by Elune (the eclipse).

    Now I'm not saying we should rule out Eonar, but The Winter Queen being the sister of Elune is still a major possibility.

  11. #51
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Denathrius is of course a part of the "Pantheon" of the Shadowlands, or the First Ones. He appears to be very effective in draining anima from souls, and theoretically using said Anima to make himself even more powerful. His sword also appears to be quite powerful as well, and even has a soul in it that gives it thought and personality. While clearly he is in the upper tiers of power within the Shadowlands itself, how does he compare to other villains in WoW? Old God Tier? Arch/KJ tier? Perhaps even Titan Tier? Do you think lorewise, he will be most powerful character players will face so far, even surpassing Argus?
    "Power" is a weird concept.
    Take characters like Argus, for example. We beat him, albeit with some help, but even in his weakened state, he was fully within his power to defeat us and the Titans at the Seat of the Pantheon; however, you would be hard pressed to say that Argus was stronger than the Panteon in aggregate, as they were able to restrain Sargeras, who we know is stronger than Argus.
    Also look at characters like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, both of whom wield magic that is capable of destroying worlds - Archimonde was going to destroy Draenor with his magic if we did not kill him. But we did win, we killed Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, but does that make him weaker than someone like Arthas, who we handily lost to? (Hint: The answer is no, but see explanation below).

    That preamble does serve a purpose: it conveys how hard it is to actually quantify "power", or even consider feats of strength when discussing characters, as many characters have feats that surpass others while, objectively, being lesser. The problem with the Death Pantheon, and the Jailer, is that we have a lot of exposition which tells us that they are supposedly great, but we don't actually have any concrete evidence of this or have any idea of what sort of feats they are capable of. One thing many people throw out there is this wild speculation that the Death Pantheon is somehow greater than the Titans, and that the Jailer is a force beyond even Sargeras, but we actually have nothing to show this is the case. Rather, we have evidence to the contrary: the Death Pantheon, which are portrayed as these powerful beings who shaped large sections of the afterlife, can't hold these realms together. Many people will point to the anima drought, but that's sort-of the point; the Death Pantheon may be powerful, but they are basically ceramists who had an infinite amount of clay to create their works with. Their realms were shaped by them, but through the use of infinite resources that were given to them, and after a short time without these infinite resources the realms have fallen into disarray.

    To bring it back to Sire Denathrius, the truth is that he will be as strong as he Blizzard needs him to be. I know this seems like a copout, but we don't know enough about him specifically. There's wild speculation, datamined evidence that he may be behind the Nathrezim, but nothing concrete to actually gain an understanding of what he can actually do.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Athorha View Post
    Who are you responding to lmao? Noone asked about this and it has no relevancy to the original post.
    Did... Did you not read the OP?
    Denathrius is of course a part of the "Pantheon" of the Shadowlands, or the First Ones. He appears to be very effective in draining anima from souls, and theoretically using said Anima to make himself even more powerful. His sword also appears to be quite powerful as well, and even has a soul in it that gives it thought and personality. While clearly he is in the upper tiers of power within the Shadowlands itself, how does he compare to other villains in WoW? Old God Tier? Arch/KJ tier? Perhaps even Titan Tier? Do you think lorewise, he will be most powerful character players will face so far, even surpassing Argus?
    This forum is unbelievable. I have no words.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  13. #53
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Bout as powerful as 'A' Titan. What Titan? Who knows. A Titan.
    I actually just posted about this in another thread. WoWhead is the only source which notes that the Jailer is a Titan 'plus plus' level antagonist, though this WoWhead article also states that Gul'dan is the end boss of Warlords of Draenor, so take their interpretation of anything how you will. However, other sources, like Windows Central, released more comprehensive articles on the group interview in question. To quickly summarize, in the interview Ion is referring to the Argus, who was an avatar in the Antorus raid, when he mentions being on the level of a Titan. This likely means that the Jailor is probably around the same "power" of the avatar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windows Central
    We fought the Titan Argus, we have just defeated the Old God N'Zoth. First off, villains, in order to be credible adversaries at this point, needs to be at least at Titan power level, and that's kind of a big deal.
    - Source
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The most powerful villain ever faced remains Argus the Unmaker. This is for two reasons:

    1) If you will recall, Argus had an ability literally called "End of All Things", and the description even says "Argus ends creation, killing everything". Obviously that ability didn't literally kill everyone in existence, but still the writers clearly wanted to convey something by choosing that particular title and description;

    2) To give further credence to the boast of this ability, the adventure guide says the following at the end:



    So the take-away from all of this is that, had Argus the Unmaker been allowed to unleash his powers, he would have been able to wipe out all life in existence. Don't forget that Argus was the Titan of DEATH. So "killing people" is supposed to be the speciality of that otherwise worthless brute. He was tortured and mutilated precisely for that purpose. He had no other goal in his pathetic existence.

    Potentially, N'Zoth could have been the most powerful villain ever faced. You might say "But how? The Old Gods are insects compared to the Titans". However, the purpose of the Old Gods is actually that of controlling a World Soul and turning it into a Void monstrosity. Then nothing would be able to stop a Void Titan. N'Zoth came very close to corrupting the World Soul of Azeroth, as in the final phase of the fight he begins merging Ny'alotha with the Chamber of the Heart. Had N'Zoth succeeded, the World Soul would have been his, and then all of creation would have fallen before the Void Azeroth. That's why the adventure guide literally says that the fight against N'Zoth is a "final confrontation for the fate of the entire UNIVERSE" (Denathrius and the Shadowlands are a part of that universe).

    So, in short, No. Argus the Unmaker remains more powerful than Denathrius, and N'Zoth potentially could have been even more powerful than Argus (especially since Azeroth is clearly the strongest Titan).

    And that's why both Argus and N'Zoth were reserved for the final patch of their respective expansion. Meanwhile Denathrius is literally defeated in Patch 9.0.

    I agree with some of what you said.

    To answer OP, Sire Denathrius is definitely one of the strongest enemies we will face. He might be stronger than Argus because he is an Eternal One. Eternal Ones are quoted by the Primus to be siblings along with Zooval, the Jailer. Here is the Primus quote:

    "Ages ago, the Eternal Ones punished our brother Zovaal for his treachery. He was bound within the inescapable Maw, to be forevermore its Jailer. "

    Ion has said the Jailer is Titan++. The Eternal Ones are said to be as old as the Shadowlands. The Shadowlands are said to predate even the Titans. The Eternal Ones must therefore be stronger than anything we've faced before including baby Argus.

    The Winter Queen called Ysera her sister's pet. There are theories that suggest she's talking about Elune, but I strongly believe she is talking about Eonar, the Titan of life and the Titan who had her powers bestowed onto Ysera to protect Azeroth.

    Check this interview of the lead narrative designer/ senior dev where he hints Primus had an "ally" who showed him infinite timeways, which we know is a power tied to Aman'thul, leader of the Titans.

    “It is said that the Primus sought out an ally who could show him the infinite timeways, which he used to watch the same battle play out over and over again across realities. He noted how the slightest differences in strategy and troop deployment could swing the conflict toward one side or the other. After eons of such meticulous study, the Primus can instantly assess any situation and devise the most likely path to victory.

    https://sagamer.co.za/2020/09/24/a-d...ders-of-death/

    I agree with most of what you said but I don't think N'Zoth could be considered stronger than Denathrius. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying N'Zoth was weak when we fought him. Old Gods are all insanely strong, but they're merely parasites and opportunists compared to Titans like Azeroth. It's actually Azeroth who is the strong entity. The Old Gods corrupt these extremely powerful souls to do the bidding of their masters, the Void Lords. Aman'thul was easily able to rip out Y'Shaarj, the strongest of the Old Gods.

    Argus is definitely one of the strongest being we fought to date but he was a baby Titan and therefore much much weaker than a Titan at its full strength. Aside from being a newborn, he was in his avatar size and that was probably because he was still a slumbering World Soul before being been ripped out of the planet Argus and brought to the Seat of Pantheon by force, and then forcefully awakened by Sargeras to fight us. He was premature. It's true, Argus was the Titan of Death. He had the potential to end creation if he wasn't prematurely awakened. The "End of All Things" is just the name of an ability given to a Titan that holds the title of "the Unmaker". He used this ability when we fought him. He managed to kill us with it, but he definitely did not end creation as the note suggests. The Seat of Pantheon still remained. Azeroth still remained. The Titan Souls still remained. In fact, Eonar brought us back to life and we were able to unmake the Unmaker.

    That doesn't mean he wasn't the strongest enemy. He is definitely the most powerful enemy we fought to date until Sire Denathrius, an Eternal One. If he is considered Zooval's sibling then he is definitely Argus (Titan) level if not stronger.
    Last edited by s0ul; 2020-12-05 at 11:31 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by s0ul View Post
    I agree with some of what you said.

    To answer OP, Sire Denathrius is definitely one of the strongest enemies we will face. He might be stronger than Argus because he is an Eternal One. Eternal Ones are quoted by the Primus to be siblings along with Zooval, the Jailer. Here is the Primus quote:

    "Ages ago, the Eternal Ones punished our brother Zovaal for his treachery. He was bound within the inescapable Maw, to be forevermore its Jailer. "

    Ion has said the Jailer is Titan++. The Eternal Ones are said to be as old as the Shadowlands. The Shadowlands are said to predate even the Titans. The Eternal Ones must therefore be stronger than anything we've faced before including baby Argus.
    Actually Ion didn't say that the Jailer is Titan++, he said that the Jailer is Titan-level. The "Titan++" is something Wowhead said in their resume of the interview. This is what Ion actually said:

    But here, there is a major, Titan-level antagonist that we are facing. And we have many steps in our journey to uncover the nature of the Jailor's plan, and put together the forces and support to even have a chance against him. And the story is going to wind its way through all the Shadowlands and our content updates until we ultimately do get a chance to confront the Jailor himself.
    There is also another interview with another Blizzard developer where the Eternal Ones are described as having "Titan-like power". Not "Titan++". You can find the sources in the Eternal Ones page on Wowpedia. Point is, the Eternal Ones can be compared to the Titans in power, but are not stronger than them. Therefore, as Argus the Unmaker actually killed the player party and was defeated by the combined power of the Pantheon, while Denathrius fails to wipe the raid party, I think Argus is much stronger than Denathrius. Baby Titan or not, he actually killed the raid team.

    There is also a lot of ambiguity with this whole "Titan-level" statement. The Jailer is described as "Titan-level", but a lot of his power is borrowed from the countless souls flowing into the Maw. Does that mean that, if the Jailer couldn't abuse the broken machine, he would be much weaker than the Titans? Don't forget that he is getting a massive power boost from all the souls flowing into the Maw, so is he Titan-level thanks to that power boost, or is he Titan-level just by himself? That's something Blizzard did not specify.

    The Eternal Ones are described as having Titan-level power, but does that mean that each Eternal One individually has that power, or only that all of them combined have a Titan-level power? If the Jailer has Titan-level power only thanks to the souls boost, then the Eternal Ones individually are much weaker than a Titan.

    As for N'Zoth, it depends on whether the Void Titan is a sentient creature or just a host body for the Old God. If N'Zoth corrupted Azeroth, would he merge with the Titan? Or would he control her like a parasite? If it's the latter, then the Void Titan's strength could effectively be attributed to N'Zoth (as he's controlling her strength), making him far more powerful than anything else in the cosmos.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-12-05 at 11:37 AM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    As for N'Zoth, it depends on whether the Void Titan is a sentient creature or just a host body for the Old God. If N'Zoth corrupted Azeroth, would he merge with the Titan? Or would he control her like a parasite? If it's the latter, then the Void Titan's strength could effectively be attributed to N'Zoth (as he's controlling her strength), making him far more powerful than anything else in the cosmos.
    I don't think that would be the way it would go. More simplistically he would simply corrupt Azeroth, overwhelming her with nightmares and turning her against the other cosmic powers. Right now, it seems like Azeroth is -our- baby and we are going to have to kill all of the other cosmic forces to ensure it remains that way (They all want a piece of that). Also the way they describe a Void Titan to me sounds more like the way they describe a black hole, something that devours everything around it.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Redroniksre View Post
    I don't think that would be the way it would go. More simplistically he would simply corrupt Azeroth, overwhelming her with nightmares and turning her against the other cosmic powers. Right now, it seems like Azeroth is -our- baby and we are going to have to kill all of the other cosmic forces to ensure it remains that way (They all want a piece of that). Also the way they describe a Void Titan to me sounds more like the way they describe a black hole, something that devours everything around it.
    Right, but the Old Gods are basically giant parasites, and we see how smaller parasites created by the Old Gods work. They literally latch onto the head/brain of the victim and control their body:



    We can also see from the Star Augur fight in the Nighthold and Telogrus Rift that, when the Old Gods are taking over a planet, their tentacles are literally enthralling the planet's surface and sprouting from everywhere, to the point that they are visible from space.

    So... what exactly is a Void Titan? Is it just a Titan coloured purple, or is it a Titan with an Old God latched onto its head, ala the parasite controlling the broken in the pic I posted? The Old Gods are designed to be parasites, after all.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Actually Ion didn't say that the Jailer is Titan++, he said that the Jailer is Titan-level. The "Titan++" is something Wowhead said in their resume of the interview. This is what Ion actually said:



    There is also another interview with another Blizzard developer where the Eternal Ones are described as having "Titan-like power". Not "Titan++". You can find the sources in the Eternal Ones page on Wowpedia. Point is, the Eternal Ones can be compared to the Titans in power, but are not stronger than them. Therefore, as Argus the Unmaker actually killed the player party and was defeated by the combined power of the Pantheon, while Denathrius fails to wipe the raid party, I think Argus is much stronger than Denathrius. Baby Titan or not, he actually killed the raid team.

    There is also a lot of ambiguity with this whole "Titan-level" statement. The Jailer is described as "Titan-level", but a lot of his power is borrowed from the countless souls flowing into the Maw. Does that mean that, if the Jailer couldn't abuse the broken machine, he would be much weaker than the Titans? Don't forget that he is getting a massive power boost from all the souls flowing into the Maw, so is he Titan-level thanks to that power boost, or is he Titan-level just by himself? That's something Blizzard did not specify.

    The Eternal Ones are described as having Titan-level power, but does that mean that each Eternal One individually has that power, or only that all of them combined have a Titan-level power? If the Jailer has Titan-level power only thanks to the souls boost, then the Eternal Ones individually are much weaker than a Titan.

    As for N'Zoth, it depends on whether the Void Titan is a sentient creature or just a host body for the Old God. If N'Zoth corrupted Azeroth, would he merge with the Titan? Or would he control her like a parasite? If it's the latter, then the Void Titan's strength could effectively be attributed to N'Zoth (as he's controlling her strength), making him far more powerful than anything else in the cosmos.
    Here is the actual quote:

    "Honestly, it's almost the opposite of a challenge (having the identity of the final boss public at the start). It's almost an easier way to tell a story and set up an expansion with a very clear theme, harkening back to the Wrath or Cataclysm/Deathwing days. We didn't openly talk about the end boss for some recent expansions because it wouldn't have made sense at the time, or it would have given away story spoilers and twists. For example, in Warlords of Draenor, if you were told you'd fight Archimonde at the end, it would have been a head-scratcher. But here, there is a major titan plus plus level antagonist that we are facing, and there are major steps in our journey to undercover the nature of the jailer's plan and put together the forces to have a chance against him. That story will wend its way through all of Shadowlands and our content updates, until we ultimately do get a chance to face the Jailer.

    Here is the link: https://www.wowhead.com/news=316804/...of-shadowlands

    It's not misquoted. It's verbatim and their own summary is right above it. Wowhead is a reliable source. There is no ambiguity. You just don't want to admit what is being said. Word by word, it says "major titan plus plus level antagonist."

    So yes, the Jailer is a Titan++ antagonist, meaning he is much stronger than the Titans. Greater than the Titans. Even if we are to agree with what you and say they have Titan-like power, it would still mean powers on a cosmic scale. Titans literally had the power of creation. They are god-like celestial beings. The Seat of Pantheon that helped defeat Argus were mere Titan souls in their dead weakened state. You cannot possibly compare them to their former living selves or an actual living Titan. They were killed ions ago by Sargeras. As I mentioned before, Argus was a baby Titan prematurely awakened. He was nowhere close to the level of a naturally born and mature Titan like Sargeras. Killing the "raid team" is a feat several bosses have accomplished before Argus and it means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Arthas was the first boss to do this. Argus killing us was part of the boss fight and it's not really in the same league as ending creation, as his ability name and info suggests. As I said before, everything still existed even after he used End of All Things. That was merely all he could do in the state he was awakened.

    And my other points still stand about the interview regarding the Primus' potential ties to Aman'thul, the Primus referring to Zooval as the sibling of the Eternal Ones, and the Jailer being a "titan plus plus level antagonist." You're right, it does not mean Sire Denathrius is as strong as Zooval. It simply means the Eternal Ones are potentially in the same league as the Titans, which means Sire Denathrius is probably stronger than the baby Argus we fought.

    As for N'Zoth, you're reaching with that statement. Old Gods do not directly "control" the entity they corrupt. As the word "corrupt" suggests, they slowly drive the entity into madness or turn them against their allies. Deathwing is a prime example. He was still Deathwing but N'Zoth and the other Old Gods had corrupted/ influenced him. They drove him to madness. Corrupting a World Soul would mean corrupting the Titan to do the Void's bidding. It's not N'Zoth controlling Azeroth. If you want to compare Titans to void entities you're better off comparing them to the Void Lords. As I said before, Aman'thul ripped out the strongest Old God from Azeroth with ease. N'Zoth is weaker than the other Old Gods and much much weaker than any Titans.

    BTW, I used the term parasites because Old Gods are parasitic life forms that embed themselves into the planet. Aman'thul learned that removing them could damage the World Soul and thus decided it was safer to imprison them rather than forcefully tear them out one by one. They're like weeds with roots going all the way into the mantle of the planet. Even if you do try and pull out the weed, it probably won't come out of the ground in one piece. There will be parts that linger and remain in the earth and it may even sprout more weeds in the future. The Old Gods are no match against the Titans but Azeroth is their host. Notice why Sargeras was on a crusade to destroy planets?

  19. #59
    People just casually saying daddy dreadlord is stronger than Archimonde and KJ who were previously the second and third strongest beings in the universe despite being in the first raid tier.
    "The jailer is titan++ tier"
    "But muh lore expansion"
    This DBZ exponential power level spiral has finally gone off the rails.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Did... Did you not read the OP?

    This post is about denathrius power, not argus.,, just because the op added 1 line at the end referencing the possibility of a conclusions OTHERS may make, doesn't give someone justification to derail and add information completely irrelevant to the PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD "How powerful do you think Sire Denathrius is lorewise?"

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