People leaving groups after certain bosses

[rrayy]

As a tank, I need ToP to get my recipe but vow not to leave after xev

I’ve started kicking rogues immediately out of the group because they’re all dirt bags who leave after the first boss. I’ve even kept a list of quitters as to remember them for all time on my personal blacklist.

I suggest fellow tanks do the same, if you see a rogue in your group in ToP, don’t pull anything and wait the 2 min to vote kick

Ignorant broad brushing at it's worst. You aren't any better than any rogue that leaves early.

[Passanius]

ITT: my time is more valuable than other people's time

People need to understand that this is one of the great truths of the human condition.

- - - Updated - - -



exactly this.

you aren't entitled to other people's time. If they wanna stay, they can stay. If they wanna leave and requeue, they can leave and requeue.

why tf would I clear a dungeon for no loot? It's just like the tank queue. They have an incentive. If the anime power and gold at the end are less interesting than another shot at the trinket for someone else, that's there prerogative

Thank you for pointing that out. A friend of mine left Plaguefall after the 2nd boss(m0) because she didn't need anything from the last two. She was harassed by 2 of the 4 players for some time. After she put everyone on ignore, one player still messaged here(brutal things). She wrote a ticket after these "animals" used twinks or such to harass her further. I hope they are consequences, what a toxic community.

[Alkizon]

Kallisto
The player has free will.

It's true that player has free will (but wording doesn't end here)... to do what game "teaches to behave, makes it ordinary, acceptable", and it teaches bad things (I'd like to say that it doesn't teach anything, but it won't be true, everything is somewhat worse). Everything is very simple, and this issue is also detailed in links that were given in that message.

Here is basic stuff:

System sets rules (banal natural ones are taking supremacy in this case (biology and physics - necessities and needs, insurmountable laws, to which, as consequence of evolution, was added psychological one as influential component)), people obey them to extent which it requires from them - they adapt and survive or don't. This mechanism forces societies to develop global systems' organization (political, religious systems, depending on preference of local majority). Due to rather general/non-specific nature of such systems, appears need for local models that serve specific purpose (to instill certain knowledges/skills/behaviors), so author and manager of such system becomes part of it, and those, who obey it, become local... community. If system is natural (= conditionally free) to external part (collective/family), then it continues to obey higher order ones, but if it's unnatural (= closed/forced) by origin (sect, imprisonment camp, fictional virtual world etc), then everything already depends on preferences/skills of organizer, and therefore completely on system itself. Everything, that it controls or don't, is reflected in local behavior of given, specific, locally taken “community”. System develops moral values ​​(I hope, I don't discover America for you, when will say, that person doesn't have any kind of morality from birth, and it's formed by external environment and society - character based on his/her place in it and individual kind of temperament), preferences/deviations are quite predictable with proper control... but since system (especially poorly organized) isn't able to keep track of each local individual (offer education program based on his/her personal characteristics), here "PROBLEMS" begins. This is, if in general and with own words.

For reference: Control/management doesn't mean dictates at all (for this is an extreme form of submission based mainly on fear and coercion, which causes a lot of contradictions in commonplace human nature and is basically equivalent of using hormone therapy for treating common cold or nuclear bombs when solving issues of private property; history suggests that this never ends in good way), it's more a means of persuasion, education and mutual adaptation, trust. Border, of course, is very thin here.

Some particular examples here (A friend in need is a friend indeed) based on current system's configuration.

Some words about punishment organization:

Again, hint apparently was not clear without reading links. I hinted that "violator" is punished not by system, but by society that was offended. Moreover, they don't lynch him (can torture from time to time, but within the game - it's rather rat fuss), but by their inaction in personal direction - restrict person's access to content and progress, which, as you know, was already paid. What leaves "defendant" to spend time exclusively on aimless and useless "narcissism". Naturally, when whole guilds are engaged in this, situation turns out to be quite difficult, but still not hopeless. Point is that devs themselves destroyed mechanism of influence, which formed naturally earlier, and now not only aren't trying to restore it, but replace it with artificial automatic systems that aren't capable of targeted analysis of situation. Of course, this won't work, it's quite difficult, since it's necessary to make not just "accurate", but "right" decision, which current automatic systems aren't capable of.

There is some mutual, of course, but not quite. It's more like how their private interior issues were solved within several families/villages, without involving feudal lord/government ("when in Rome do as the Romans do"). Devs have deprived you of this opportunity. For good, problems that community creates for itself aren't devs' problems, but automatically become so, when they take away initiative. They just didn't take this into account when planned "modern" design. So, system now begin to require immense amount of "crutches", which ultimately spawn demand only on even larger number of new "crutches" and there is no end to this process.

As I already hinted in the answer to 1 quote above: system went beyond scope of game world, which devs should have resisted as much as possible, since final control of system should have remained in their hands, and now they themselves contributed to its loss (strictly speaking, they left no choice for players), they lost strings of intelligent control and all that was left for them is to punish without trial (2 extremes are fighting in game now - anarchy and dictatorship, neither is attractive).

Draylock
Are you toxic to your screwdriver if you can't utilize it properly?

Well, why not, if you have thousand of "them" in the pantry and getting new one is easy task, why not scold/blame/break "tool"... but! if change "it" will become very problematic for you, and working without "it" is almost impossible... I think you'll treat "it" much more carefully

Your weapon, Miller! lt's your life! You knew that, and you saved it. You're learning, son.

See the difference?

Toxicity is provoked by lack of direct need for friendship and mutual assistance. People have neither social/situational need for each other <A friend in need is a friend indeed>, nor need to assess consequences of their actions <Social cohesion/interdependence>.

"Even wolves hunt in packs."

Within the game:

First: technically it's problem being solved of community itself, BUT! organization of system in which community can influence process is already dev's task.
Second: lets assuming at moment, that competitive spirit itself, even if it provokes toxicity, is conditionally as just moral crime, which, if it goes beyond permissible local morality, community can cut down/reduce intensity/moderate - then it turns out that its uncontrolled growth/spread isn't so much root cause, but just characteristic feature, well, or even indicator of situation out of control, disease of local society; fundamentally targeted/provocative system aggravates situation, but isn't directly its source.
And third: WoW community doesn't have any opportunities provided by system for implementation of above, at the same time, just like in any social group (and I already mean this in broad word's sense, in sense of general concept of socialization of both people and other our planet's residents), we aren't talking about forceful solution to issue, but passively restricting access to why people, in essence, have always played "socially oriented games" - to get social activity even if just virtual, and for this latter one should have weight within framework of gameplay, but simply there is nothing like that here (all those old social mechanisms are dancing around min-max "mentality/way of thinking" now)... The end.

but devs like alternative more:

Alternative is permissiveness, uncontrollability, complete own independence and hence growth/spread of toxicity. History has proven this many times. If you don't need society, then society doesn't need you either. It doesn't care who you are, where you are and why you are, which means, with such attitude, that any joint interaction is perceived as "personal mutual insult" ≈ toxicity. Of course this doesn't happen immediately, but becomes prevailing trend (= norm), "new morality" over time.
- - -
since anger accumulates over time, then for devs... as well as corrupted governments, it's very convenient for this (protect itself morally, stay away or even pretend "good uncle", one who gives and helps, always ready and guarding) to have split in society, internal (or even external) conflict of like national/political/racial type through which its surplus is released, for example, for game it may be conflict of old and new design *pointing at Q&A direction* thus society devours itself, which means it remains exhausted/indifferent to direct problem

Link that was given spoke about unacceptability of fact that since devs took away all methods of protection from players, so players created external super-systems that cause additional damage, because system was never foresee such (devs lost initiative of control by their inaction, this is reversible, but... someone is too lazy, greedy and stubborn).

Here is stuff about decay process' popularization

Yes and no. They contributed to painless accumulation of such experience, until it became norm. So, Blizzard isn't generally to blame for the fact that this or that person is behaving badly, but they're to blame for “characteristic” tendencies in community as a whole - they allowed/contributed to making it happen. Main principles still are the same: conditions of formation, adaptation and experience ...because conditions are controlled by game design. Probably somewhat rude to blame them for what they didn't understand and apparently continue to misunderstand, but to deny their influence is to defy healthy logic.

A simple example: is it true to blame parents for the fact that their child grew up becoming tainted cockered @$$hole?

And I'd have accused your parents for not providing necessary values (but here an individual approach is important and also your example is unsuccessful as a whole, although it's logical, explanation further), but they simply lost control of situation at some stage, problem is in that notion of “what I quoted” shouldn't be in game's case at all (there is no "adulthood" as well as constancy of "content" for community: 1 educated out, 2 ill-mannered in - balance requires constant adjustment, and therefore sustentation of conditions formation must be a constant notion). It's not appropriate, because devs continue to control entire process, they continue to be responsible for conditions (since this is their main purpose and duty), and it's not true for your parents from a certain stage. Your analogue falls in “moving to different game and there already having started all serious issues” for player’s category. Is it understandable?

In general, if we take old history discussion of processes, then this result was predicted by more adequate and knowledgeable people already back in WotLK. This is how things are going. In other words, it was already predictable from initiating "functional conditions" of their current system.

Again: everything is going exactly as it should go within current system's conditions and it only makes sense to complain about devs themselves, since they are designers, initiators and controlling body of entire system.

ps. System, aka result of its devs work, is always main culprit of its interior deformation if any happens.

[Masternap]

why tf would I clear a dungeon for no loot?

"Why would I help someone for no personal gain?"

Spoken like a true asshole. After people helped you get a chance at your loot you don't give a crap about helping them. Instead of taking 5-10 minutes clearing the dungeon you leave, completely wasting their time. If you're the tank the group might even disband because of you.

If you honestly can't understand why you would stay if there's nothing in it for you, I don't know what to tell you. This has nothing to do with what you're getting out of it. This is about being a decent human being.

[cparle87]

Is that how it works? Or are you just assuming it works like M+?

What I've been saying is that it SHOULD be like M+, so all the droppers don't get squat.

[affboy]

All tanks leaving after 2nd boss in theatre of pain. There should be implemented some kind of punishment for doing this (except 30 min que to join again).

[Phaine]

maybe blizzard knows all to well how this was gonna turn out and it was their intention all along, catering the majority of dick players seems to be their main objective over the past expansions, i'm sure more people think the same but arent as willing to voice their opinions, after all, its that same majority of players that are so vocal about expressing their wishes how the game should evolve

[T-34]

What I've been saying is that it SHOULD be like M+, so all the droppers don't get squat.

And what happens if you get kicked? Do you also get "squat" then?

[Gaidax]

People leaving after that boss they need did not drop what they wanted?

That's a time immemorial tradition.

[Nzx]

I'm not reading 14 pages of whining, but the first page and the last page of this thread have so far shown zero answers as to why the other 4 people are entitled to the fifth person's time/assistance any more than the fifth person is entitled to the first four's. You get given the next DPS/Healer/Tank in the queue when someone leaves, and if it's specifically Rogues you're talking about then you'll find a 3rd DPS almost instantly and carry on like nothing happened. You're all here arguing that the Rogue in this story should be forced to do content for your benefit, but that he shouldn't be allowed to use you in the same way.

And no, before you all have a cry about it, I've never left a group for this, and have in fact had multiple tanks leave in ToP because their legendary didn't drop - so I just waited about 30 seconds for a new one and then finished the dungeon. Big deal. People want to cry about literally fucking everything these days, it's insane.

[kneehidude]

As someone who is trying to gear up, and only has a few more items before they are "capped" it's basically how I'm doing heroics now. I do the run enough to kill the boss I "need" and if I don't need anything after that, I leave.

[Phaine]

Bad Luck Protection doesnt work as you think, the way i see it is that if you have bad luck, you are protected so your bad luck keeps lasting

[alteri]

I personally play for fun, and getting the lege pattern sure sounds like fun.

Will stay till the end when rest of the group pays for my sub.

[Shakhar]

Thank you for pointing that out. A friend of mine left Plaguefall after the 2nd boss(m0) because she didn't need anything from the last two. She was harassed by 2 of the 4 players for some time. After she put everyone on ignore, one player still messaged here(brutal things). She wrote a ticket after these "animals" used twinks or such to harass her further. I hope they are consequences, what a toxic community.

Actually this is different scenario, typically for m0 this early you are obligated to do full run unless it is completly clown fiesta, for random heroic noone cares.
They all are animals your friend included

[Sting]

No incentive to stay means I'm not staying.

[crusadernero]

Happend 3 times on my hunter last night. All times it was tank+healer that left, leaving the grp stranded waiting for new ppl.

No idea why Blizzard did it like this. Its a item for legendary gear, atleast finish the god damn dungeon to recieve it.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not reading 14 pages of whining, but the first page and the last page of this thread have so far shown zero answers as to why the other 4 people are entitled to the fifth person's time/assistance any more than the fifth person is entitled to the first four's. You get given the next DPS/Healer/Tank in the queue when someone leaves, and if it's specifically Rogues you're talking about then you'll find a 3rd DPS almost instantly and carry on like nothing happened. You're all here arguing that the Rogue in this story should be forced to do content for your benefit, but that he shouldn't be allowed to use you in the same way.

And no, before you all have a cry about it, I've never left a group for this, and have in fact had multiple tanks leave in ToP because their legendary didn't drop - so I just waited about 30 seconds for a new one and then finished the dungeon. Big deal. People want to cry about literally fucking everything these days, it's insane.

In normal & HC, sure it doesnt matter that much. happend to me 3 times last night and it was tank+healer that left. Waited a few mins and we had new ones.

What sucks is when this happens in mythic dungeons. At that point you dont get new people in a wiff, especially when one boss is already killed.

I get that people leave when theres a automated feature replacing the spots, were no player really matters and everyone is considered an AI.

But when you start entering mythic dungeons and leave your grp behind mid run cause you didnt get the loot you wanted, it is a dick move.

And as always, players cant help themself so Blizzard needs to fix it so such degenerate gameplay dont happen.

I mean - you sign up for a mythic run. Gear might drop, it might not. But you should always finish the run (not talking about you here)

[SirCowdog]

What I've been saying is that it SHOULD be like M+, so all the droppers don't get squat.

I can agree with that.

[sicstynine]

I'm not reading 14 pages of whining, but the first page and the last page of this thread have so far shown zero answers as to why the other 4 people are entitled to the fifth person's time/assistance any more than the fifth person is entitled to the first four's. You get given the next DPS/Healer/Tank in the queue when someone leaves, and if it's specifically Rogues you're talking about then you'll find a 3rd DPS almost instantly and carry on like nothing happened. You're all here arguing that the Rogue in this story should be forced to do content for your benefit, but that he shouldn't be allowed to use you in the same way.

And no, before you all have a cry about it, I've never left a group for this, and have in fact had multiple tanks leave in ToP because their legendary didn't drop - so I just waited about 30 seconds for a new one and then finished the dungeon. Big deal. People want to cry about literally fucking everything these days, it's insane.

Same. People rejoining is just too darn fast so who cares.
And it's Blizzard to blame, as mentioned multiple times. Like this would be the first xpac this happens...

Thank God no one cares about (h)dungeons in a couple of weeks, and people will be busy ingame again.

[Passanius]

Actually this is different scenario, typically for m0 this early you are obligated to do full run unless it is completly clown fiesta, for random heroic noone cares.
They all are animals your friend included

I see no difference. You free to leave whenever you want. It is a game after all.

- - - Updated - - -

Same. People rejoining is just too darn fast so who cares.
And it's Blizzard to blame, as mentioned multiple times. Like this would be the first xpac this happens...

Thank God no one cares about (h)dungeons in a couple of weeks, and people will be busy ingame again.

Exactly, if Blizz does not provide enough incentive to stay, people leave. But we should blame the community if they harass someone if they leave a dungeon.

[munkeyinorbit]

Wow, not even remotely the same. Having a name start with k is not intrinsically shitty. Leaving a dungeon you signed up for early because you didn't get the item you needed IS shitty. And yes, by using dungeon finder you agreeing you are onboard for the entire dungeon.

Don't be a pissant. Finish the dungeon

- - - Updated - - -



No way dude. Excuses are frail. What you perceive as a slight against you does NOT make you ho-ing other people acceptable

Where does it say that I agree to do the whole dungeon. A source on this would be great. Otherwise it is being extra shitty expecting other people to conform to your play style. The dungeon finder is not there for you to expect others to live up to your abirtary standards. If people leaving makes you so angry then why don't you manually form a group of like-minded people or even join a guild and run with them?

- - - Updated - - -

If you queue for a dungeon, then you do the fucking dungeon. The entire thing. Bitching out cause you killed the boss you needed should be a bannable offense. Make it so no one gets loot until the end.

No. People should get banned for the type of toxicity that you're displaying. Why are you acting like you can't get a replacement?

- - - Updated - - -

Implement a system that tracks unfinished runs over the long term. A few disconnects or emegency quits? No problem. A repeated habit of quitting? You get low priority longer queues.

Longer queues for people who try to force their arbirtary standards on others. You don't get to decide how others play. This is the sort of toxicity that ruins the game.