Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[Naruto is stooopid]

Wrong again. She does exactly the thing that makes death "final" - feeds those souls to the Maw. So she kills people and then ether leaves their souls to be devoured by Jailer and annihilated or broken and reforged into his slave army or weapons, hence also destroyed and repurposed. So no, she should be even more afraid of messing with souls if she knew WHAT awaits them.

The 1st thing the players did when arriving in Shadowlands was leave the Maw. There's an entire infrastructure to facilitate leaving the maw, and we activated it and left. If we figured it out in 15 mins I'm sure Sylanans knew/knows about it.

[VladlTutushkin]

The 1st thing the players did when arriving in Shadowlands was leave the Maw. There's an entire infrastructure to facilitate leaving the maw, and we activated it and left. If we figured it out in 15 mins I'm sure Sylanans knew/knows about it.

Yes, but all those souls dont know and cant leave, we can watch them "die" there or lose themselves and become husks.

[Somewhatconcerned]

How did Sylvanas go from only caring about trying to perpetuate the existence of the Forsaken to now all of a sudden caring about what happens in the afterlife?

[bagina]

How did Sylvanas go from only caring about trying to perpetuate the existence of the Forsaken to now all of a sudden caring about what happens in the afterlife?

The real answer is, because the plot demanded it. She found out the afterlife is even worse and more unfair than life (in her opinion) and decided to dab on everyone and remake the cosmos into the one she deems fair.

[Ethas]

https://youtu.be/Ynmd_qFp5hY

Well... this is it boys? She is confirmed “secretly a good guy all along” and we can now skip the unnecessary parts between the launch of SL and its final patch and go play something else?
What really bothers me personally is how after all the ridiculously evil and “moustache twirling” things horde did in BfA they basically were forgiven and pushed all the blame on Sylvanas. All of it. You cant even hate horde now (talking from META perspective) without being totally in the wrong and evil vengeful maniac because it “werent them! It was all evil sylvanas! They are innocent, how can you even...!”
But then if Sylvanas also a hero that will fix the unfair afterlife somehow and yadda yadda... Then who’s fault is it? Who is to blame for all that evil? Or it just gets absolved and evaporates on a wind? I am struggling to understand the “message” Blizz sending our way. And message it is because they ALWAYS cramming “moral messages” into their narrative nowdays.

Well you see. If Sylvanas is right and we have no free will, that the life is unnatural spark of something and eternity lies somewhere else... what the Horde did under her command doesn’t matter.

[Soon-TM]

Well you see. If Sylvanas is right and we have no free will, that the life is unnatural spark of something and eternity lies somewhere else... what the Horde did under her command doesn’t matter.

I'm already sick of all of this pseudo-phylosophical stuff from Danuser & co. They simply don't have what it takes to write that kind of things, they should really stop with it.

[Devylknyght]

So this cinematic never played for me. When was it supposed to happen? Is it Alliance only?

[Xilurm]

I don't think Sylvanas meant that nobody has free will literally but rather that everybody is at mercy of bigger powers in life as well as in death, basically a leaf in the wind, something along these lines.

At the very least I'm glad Andie pointed out to Sydney that the Jailer might be using her. To me it served as an acknowledgement for the audience that yes, it is a possibility and Skyla is aware of that. Imo it was an indirect confirmation that if any backstabbing happens, Sylvia will be expecting it, or she will be the one doing the backstabbing. I'm confident we won't see the situation where she's caught unawares.

If that line wasn't there, I would have my doubts.

How many different names do you have for her?

- - - Updated - - -

So this cinematic never played for me. When was it supposed to happen? Is it Alliance only?

It hasn't been unlocked ingame yet, it was datamined. Bit lame if you ask me.

[Devylknyght]

It hasn't been unlocked ingame yet, it was datamined. Bit lame if you ask me.

Oh weird. I could have sworn they had a way to encrypt those now to prevent them from being datamined... Though I don't feel like this really revealed anything new.

[bagina]

How many different names do you have for her?

I'm glad you noticed my little attempt at humour Frankly I was already drawing a blank after the third name. xD

[Varodoc]

Well you see. If Sylvanas is right and we have no free will, that the life is unnatural spark of something and eternity lies somewhere else... what the Horde did under her command doesn’t matter.

That's won't happen anyway.

Because, you know, Sylvanas isn't right, and the message of WoW will never be that a nihilist wretch is right.

[Soon-TM]

The 1st thing the players did when arriving in Shadowlands was leave the Maw. There's an entire infrastructure to facilitate leaving the maw, and we activated it and left. If we figured it out in 15 mins I'm sure Sylanans knew/knows about it.

Indeed, Sylvie has also been able to leave the Maw already, as per the retconned version of Edge of Night.

[me4again]

She was never a good guy... It's the deception pulled over your heads, a blatant lie by the devil himself to escape the biblical creation.

[TheVaryag]

It has nothing to do with ''being a good guy all along'' find a brain please. She just has motivations that align with her tragic backstory and how FACTUALLY the Shadowlands are structured, she still went about it in 'evil'' ways. Again, why do people shut off their fucking brains when it comes to this character? The Shadowlands, the afterlife, her life and the life of basically every living being is predetermined and she wants to tear it down as it's, you guessed it, aligning her story, free will.

I wish the WoW playerbase wasn't so smoothbrain when it comes to analyzing stories.

How is it predetermined? Didn't Illidan in Legion basically went like "There is no chosen one, just us and our enemies" from that, we learnt or were told atleast from my big brain perspective that It's just the Light and the Void that make up a "Chosen one" story for people so that they believe themselves so important of being chosen by a cosmic power. But in reality, they just pick anyone whose the strongest among a particular race's people and give them a "You were chosen all along" storyline.

And If you used your brain good sir, you'd realize that NOBODY WANTS SYLVANAS ANYMORE. She's an overused, badly written character that should've died when she dropped from the Frozen Throne. It's sad, because Blizzard Writers can't seem to create new stories or narratives to push the entire universe forward. They've always been bad at World Building, writing good stories, characters , CORE lore that doesn't change and get retconned every year. They can't even set lore in stone (Chronocles) before they come out a year or two later and say It's from the PERSPECTIVE of people who wrote it apparently (Titans) which is total BS and a story teller blowing rasberries.

She's not morally gray, she's pure evil, and her actions cannot and should not be justified even if she -somehow- manages to save the entirity of existance. What does that teach? What message is that to people? That despite killing millions of innocent lives you can be forgiven? That's a horrible thing to say. She's a Kerrigan esk character at this point, same with Illidan. He's killed many, innocents and baddies alike and he never suffered for his sins. I like his character but I don't like what they've done with his character in Legion, other than the whole "Light, Void, doesn't matter... it's just us and our enemies" bit.

Don't get me wrong, It's nice they are trying to flesh Sylvanas' tragic story out, but it should be a side quest or side chain quest at best. Not the plot of multiple expansions where Blizzard keeps teasing us with oh no really guys the story twist is GOOD you'll love it, just wait 2 ish expansions for the twist It'll be really good.

By the time Final Fantasy 14 tells a story with It's expansion not counting the major patches, Blizzard would tell the same story but more convoluted and within 2-3 expansions and then retcon half of it later.

[Zulkhan]

My god, an actual motive, it only took three fucking years, two books and quest upon quest of smarm, retardation and self-sabotage. It goes to show much of a void this character has been (and will likely continue to be) for there to be shock and annoyance that she actually has the bare quality of any character, namely a reason for what they do.

Past that, while I'm foregoing discussing much of Shadowlands before I can fully binge it, this and some early parts of Bastion basically ensure we're going for Sylvanas being right in the diagnosis but wrong on the cure. Anduin is even a mouthpiece for this by quickly cutting to the point where no matter what she says she's still dressed in skulls in a hell dimension and allied with a giant blue man who wants to end reality, so her prescription is worse than the disease and he's not playing ball. Kind of surprisingly welcome content from him as well, rather than pleading with her to be good or taking her at face value.

That said, the cinematic leaves it vague on whether she thinks everyone goes to the Maw regardless of choices or if she's seen the other afterlives and when she talks about your afterlife being decided for you she means the Arbiter system. It's an important distinction since the former leaves the way open for a hackneyed redemption story whereas the latter keeps her more of an actor who is aware of their actions.

The impression I got is that the Jailer is indeed using Sylvanas and being 100% dishonest with probably everyone he sweet-talked so far, but unlike the pompous and arrogant god-like beings of the likes of Deanthrius and Mueh'zala, or the fallen Ascendants who basically exchanged a blind dogmatic position for another, Sylvanas may be the only one who maybe sees the Jailer for what he is and maybe thinks to be, if not powerful, at least smart and calculating enough to get what she wants on her terms, rather than the Jailer's, basically an Azshara/N'Zoth situation all over again (backstabbing dickheads is quite the distinctive trait of Sylvanas, moreover). However, and per usual of Sylvanas, she overestimates herself and is actually unable to do that, likely underestimating how deeply and subtly the Jailer manipulated her and for how long this ancient motherfucker planned this entire thing all along.

The resulting situation, I think, is a Sylvanas who would probably fight by our side but clearly not in an amicable or fully suppotive nature, maybe still trying to achieve her own agenda right until the very end. It's when this agenda proves to be simply not achievable and there's a choice between life and death that she's going to likely aim to achieve some compromise (so not what she desired nor the current status quo) at the cost of her life. I know, sounds like redemption, but I believe that's where Blizzard will go.

[Super Dickmann]

The impression I got is that the Jailer is indeed using Sylvanas and being 100% dishonest with probably everyone he sweet-talked so far, but unlike the pompous and arrogant god-like beings of the likes of Deanthrius and Mueh'zala, or the fallen Ascendants who basically exchanged a blind dogmatic position for another, Sylvanas may be the only one who maybe sees the Jailer for what he is and maybe thinks to be, if not powerful, at least smart and calculating enough to get what she wants on her terms, rather than the Jailer's, basically an Azshara/N'Zoth situation all over again (backstabbing dickheads is quite the distinctive trait of Sylvanas, moreover). However, and per usual of Sylvanas, she overestimates herself and is actually unable to do that, likely underestimating how deeply and subtly the Jailer manipulated her and for how long this ancient motherfucker planned this entire thing all along.

The resulting situation, I think, is a Sylvanas who would probably fight by our side but clearly not in an amicable or fully suppotive nature, maybe still trying to achieve her own agenda right until the very end. It's when this agenda proves to be simply not achievable and there's a choice between life and death that she's going to likely aim to achieve some compromise (so not what she desired nor the current status quo) at the cost of her life. I know, sounds like redemption, but I believe that's where Blizzard will go.

I agree with your take on the above, especially with the new mini-cutscene that came out a little while back. I think the one who's pegged the Jailer's motivation most accurately is Denathrius. The dude isn't very complicated. When speaking alone with the Runecarver he's still a giant blue asshole who wants power and revenge, and it gels with his desire to nab the World Soul. His goal is basically to make Death the dominant power - all other powers seek to expand, but left to their own devices the realms of the Shadowlands just function in maintenance mode, even Maldraxxus only fights preventatively. By contrast, Fel went through the entire universe, the Void wants to consume everything, the Light is iffy and the Arcane can also subvert death by setting up pocket realms that nobody does anything about (like Odyn). What I figure got the Jailer sent to the Maw then is trying to make Death become proactive in the cosmic slapfight, and in the process he hogged power. Over his time in the Maw, that got a good dosage of spite added to it.

While Denathrius knows his general trajectory though, what with being his brother, I think Sylvanas is a lot more in the know about the specifics of his plans as his main agent. So I do think he's being honest with her regarding all the tools they're after and the means by which they'll reach their goal, it's just that her idea of that goal is altogether different. Making Death take power and destroying the other realms and cosmic forces would indeed upend the system of the Shadowlands, but that's a consequence, not the aim, and Zovaal doesn't give two shits about free will. It'd be out of character for Sylvanas not to figure as much, since she's never been a fawning fangirl, but it would be entirely in character for her to think she can hijack his means to her own ends (hence 'through the Jailer'). Then, like with ambushing Arthas in the forest but stopping to gloat instead of finishing the job, having that victory slip between her fingers at the last moment due to an unrelated error, possibly everyone she threw under the bus to get to that point and either be defeated or pull a redemption, depending on how cheesy Blizzard want to go. My preferred route would be for her to succeed and be the end baddie, I don't think it's very likely.

As a side thing, I'm wondering whether the Light's deal with the enemy of all meshes with what Denathrius was up to or with the idea that the other Eternal Ones had to make a deal with one of the other cosmic powers to put the Jailer in prison. Hence his agents calling it a betrayal. Anduin, being connected with the Light, would be needed to reverse the effects, hence why the Jailer only got interested once he saw Anduin call on it in the Maw.

[masterjc]

it seems certain that while Jailer is very powerful and has powerful allies (Sire. Sylvanas. KT. etc) he and Sylvanas are still holding special interest in Anduin.

I think it isnot that he is King or leader of alliance but because he is Alive. a Living being (so far mawsworn allies seem to be dead/undead/spirit/demon creatures) and because he seems to be very strong with light

in intro it seems Jailer is testing kidnapped leaders and while baine seems to be useless for his intents (throwing him off during beta) anduin seems more interesting than Jaina (ome of tgem most powerful and skilled mage ever) or Thrall (guy who could handle shamanism so well he helped aspects destroy former aspect)

wonder if they manage brainwash him and we have to redeem/save him or we just pull him out

[Varodoc]

baine seems to be useless for his intents (throwing him off during beta)

HAHA, did that really happen? If so, Blizzard is so self-aware. It's like they know that Baine is a worthless burger, and so even the Jailer can't be bothered with him.

I must say, the Horde must have truly fallen low if they are led by this spineless cow these days. Ouch, that's got to hurt.

[Super Dickmann]

baine seems to be useless for his intents (throwing him off during beta)

The Jailer still does it in live. The first thing he ever does is chuck Baine off a cliff for being shit. This so emotionally wounds Baine that after you save his useless ass for like the third time in two expansions he just sulks in a corner with no lines.

[Kallisto]

Garithos was neither part nor precedent of present day alliance, that's like blaming the horde for those orcs in blackrock mountain.
Daelin could not be stopped without the help of Jaina, who has been part of the alliance far longer than Kul Tiras.
The forsaken are not exactly a race and thus cannot be subjected to genocide. Even calling it just "killing" or some variation thereof becomes very weird very quickly due to their dead-but-not-quite nature. Combine that with their own contempt for their existence and it becomes clear that killing them hardly qualifies as evil.
Trolls and humans have been at eachother's throats since forever, neither side has made proper efforts towards peace, thus if either side comes close to victory they can hardly be blamed for seizing it.
Dalaran was not a racial purge, it was elf versus traitor elf at Jaina's command, and hardly involved enough bloodshed to be worth a mention.

Blizzard since Day 1 have said the alliance has been the same alliance since the foundation in WC2. Garithos was the defacto leader of it as the highest ranked lord in Lordaeron. They also stated that the horde of WC1+2 is a different organisation that Thrall created and has lasted since.