Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[leorana]

Culling of Stratholme to prevent zombie outbreak didn't make Arthas a good guy. It's the same with Sylvanas.

Culling of stratholme had nothing to do with Arthas being good or bad. It was the logical, some say Human, thing to do.

What would you prefer? An eternity as undead mindless slave or a swift death? If Uther and Jaina would have helped him and share the burden maybe we wouldn't be consumed by vengeance and wrath.

P.s. in dragon soul, Alextrasa asks us to kill her own (corrupted) clutch. How come no one (including green Jesus standing right there) condemning her for that in a similar way to the culling of stratholme?

[kiramon]

I felt it was someting emotional. Like she got carried away during her monologue explaining why everything is unfair, to the point she got emotional and was about to tell something that Anduin, nobody in fact, is supposed to know. I'd guess a weakness, something she had hoped but which is finally impossible. We know that she is driven by emotions, most of her recent "feats" are. Teldrassil (I'm still not so sure about that, but for the community it is), her "The Horde is nothing",...

That's why I'm really afraid this was going to be about Nathanos and the fact his "body" is now dead and can't be revived so she won't have her happily ever after That'd be vomiting rofl.

I'm hoping more for the theory that she was going to say "We can't even choose who we are," which builds upon her years of "Who are we but slaves to this torment."

She has to be this evil person because it what she is meant to be, and she doesn't want to be in anymore, so she is seeking to break it. Sure, why not.

[tommyhil622]

The Jailer still does it in live. The first thing he ever does is chuck Baine off a cliff for being shit. This so emotionally wounds Baine that after you save his useless ass for like the third time in two expansions he just sulks in a corner with no lines.

Yea i saw it in live too (twice). But yea, he inherited those genes from his dad.

[Soon-TM]

P.s. in dragon soul, Alextrasa asks us to kill her own (corrupted) clutch. How come no one (including green Jesus standing right there) condemning her for that in a similar way to the culling of stratholme?

Because in Warcraft, bad things are actually bad only when it's A doing them, but a-ok (or at least irrelevant) when B does the same.

[VladlTutushkin]

Because in Warcraft, bad things are actually bad only when it's A doing them, but a-ok (or at least irrelevant) when B does the same.

Hm... But if clutch is corrupted then its pretty much "gone" already. Whelps will be born either as twisted abominations or under thrall of Old Gods. Wrathion was saved because we had "the technology" which included some titan tech (if i am not mistaken). We simply had no way to save those eggs.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm hoping more for the theory that she was going to say "We can't even choose who we are," which builds upon her years of "Who are we but slaves to this torment."

She has to be this evil person because it what she is meant to be, and she doesn't want to be in anymore, so she is seeking to break it. Sure, why not.

I dont see why she "has" to be anything. You can control your own fate and even being undead does not mean you HAVE to be evil. Look no further then Faol for that.

[Raisei]

Funnily enough this "revelation" puts her square in one corner with old firebeard Sargeras. He had the right idea, the Void Lords are extremely dangerous and threaten everyone in the universe, but his solution of rather burning everything to ash then hoping for a better way out was just as flawed as Silvanas' is.
She might actually be worse now, since her plan involves wiping reality itself out, not just the material universe.

That being said, I am not ready to believe that she is actually going to cooperate with Jailer and believes he will make everything just like she wants it. That would ironically mean she has found hope somewhere in an old jar under her bed. Nah, she will help the Jailer to the point where he has the power necessary to change reality and then she will betray him and take his power. Probably after we have kicked his ass in a raid and weakened him.
Sure, we haven't actually heard his backstory, only from the point of view of the other Eternal Ones, which may or may not be reliable and we have no idea what the crime is he alegedly commited (probably he tried to destroy or subvert the Purpose).
So I suppose it is possible that Sylvanas sees her own fate reflected in his and genuinely has found a cause she believes in, like Devos.

Also I am not ready to see the Jailer as a beneficial figure that actually wants to give people a fair choice in life and death. Someone that has tortured souls for eons and actively increased the amounts of souls he can torture by various means is a very tough sell for a someone that actually has a good goal in mind and just goes by any means necessary.
It's just like with Sylvanas and Teldrassil: She went too far. Nothing ever excuses that mass-murder, even if in the larger schemes it is nothing they are still innocent people she murdered and someone capable of that is not ever going to be considered a good person again. The Jailer more then likely has commited even worse crimes so I am absolutely with Anduin. Her bullshit reasons mean nothing and I am tired of her games.

The sad thing is that from how the story moves, I am relatively sure we will see at least one of the three still captured break and join the dark side, probably Anduin. He is defiant now, but I think he will come to realize that Sylavanas was "right" one way or another. The Jailer seems to need a mortal with a strong "spirit" for something and Anduin has it, so he will be made to serve.

- - - Updated - - -

I dont see why she "has" to be anything. You can control your own fate and even being undead does not mean you HAVE to be evil. Look no further then Faol for that.

Faol and the Knights of the Ebon Blade, that have heroically sacrificed themselves so we could reach Oribos and some others.

Being undead is no excuse at all. Those that broke free from the control of the Lich King have complete free will and thus can choose what they wanted to be. Sylvanas chose to be a villain and she told the Forsaken that they had to be evil too, because the world despised them. All because she wanted her revenge.

[Ardenaso]

Culling of stratholme had nothing to do with Arthas being good or bad. It was the logical, some say Human, thing to do.

if anything the peasant massacre at Tyr's Hand is still more outrageous than Strathome

but if you look at it this way: Arthas didn't properly assess the situation to Uther and Jaina, it was like "just kill them because I said so" not "here's why I said they will turn into undead so we need to kill them" considering that Uther and Jaina never saw a citizen turn into a zombie

[Alanar]

The Jailer still does it in live. The first thing he ever does is chuck Baine off a cliff for being shit. This so emotionally wounds Baine that after you save his useless ass for like the third time in two expansions he just sulks in a corner with no lines.

Yea baine.. whats not to hate.

- - - Updated - - -

HAHA, did that really happen? If so, Blizzard is so self-aware. It's like they know that Baine is a worthless burger, and so even the Jailer can't be bothered with him.

I must say, the Horde must have truly fallen low if they are led by this spineless cow these days. Ouch, that's got to hurt.

It realy doesn't... the thing you missed is that baine faction changed to alliance for hes best friend anduin. Also rumors say he braids alleria hair..

He wont be missed.

[bagina]

Faol and the Knights of the Ebon Blade, that have heroically sacrificed themselves so we could reach Oribos and some others.

Being undead is no excuse at all. Those that broke free from the control of the Lich King have complete free will and thus can choose what they wanted to be. Sylvanas chose to be a villain and she told the Forsaken that they had to be evil too, because the world despised them. All because she wanted her revenge.

Did you miss all the shit Ebon Blade has done in previous expansions, the stuff in Legion Halls? Seriously? Ebon Blade and Bolvar have been acting pretty damn questionable if not outright evil up to this point. People are so quick to forget this shit.

[Raisei]

Did you miss all the shit Ebon Blade has done in previous expansions, the stuff in Legion Halls? Seriously? Ebon Blade and Bolvar have been acting pretty damn questionable if not outright evil up to this point. People are so quick to forget this shit.

Oh I forgot nothing. You might have overlooked though that they were trying to safe the world from the Legion. Were their actions in Light's Hope questionable? Certainly. No Death Knight would ever disagree, but outright evil? No way. They were serving the greater good. Raising Tirion would have created an immensely powerful Death Knight that would have helped us a lot on Argus.

The selfish desires and prejudices of the "noble" Paladins and the Light itself robbed us of that weapon without even considering what Tirion might have decided. I personally think that a man who was willing to become the Lich King to protect the world would have eagerly accepted this chance to serve Azeroth again.

[LordVargK]

Violating a ceasefire is a war crime. Which is what Genn did. Also, just because something happened in vanilla doesn't make it any less horrific. But you're really further proving my point that Alliance fans outright refuse to admit the Alliance can be evil.

And I see people CONSTANTLY putting the actions of the Burning Blade and dark shamans entirely on the Horde as a whole. And your last comment is over-dramatic and inaccurate. Nobody cheered. They hesitated before following orders for fear that if they didn't, Sylvanas would murder them then do it herself. Furthermore, Teldrassil doesn't fit the definition of genocide.

Didn't the Horde attack first? In the Stormheim intro Alliance was on a reconissance mission and got attacked by horde bats and plaguebearers.

[Mehrunes]

The Jailer still does it in live. The first thing he ever does is chuck Baine off a cliff for being shit. This so emotionally wounds Baine that after you save his useless ass for like the third time in two expansions he just sulks in a corner with no lines.

There should be an option to put him out of his misery.

Oh I forgot nothing. You might have overlooked though that they were trying to safe the world from the Legion. Were their actions in Light's Hope questionable? Certainly. No Death Knight would ever disagree, but outright evil? No way. They were serving the greater good. Raising Tirion would have created an immensely powerful Death Knight that would have helped us a lot on Argus.

The selfish desires and prejudices of the "noble" Paladins and the Light itself robbed us of that weapon without even considering what Tirion might have decided. I personally think that a man who was willing to become the Lich King to protect the world would have eagerly accepted this chance to serve Azeroth again.

You forgot that they didn't become a thing just in Legion. They spent a good deal of Wrath going after the Scarlet Onslaught just to fulfill their vendetta. Which they achieved with methods like raising the Scarlets into undeath just for the lols, because they knew nothing would torment them more. All the while comparing themselves to the Forsaken and calling them too soft on multiple occasions.

Didn't the Horde attack first? In the Stormheim intro Alliance was on a reconissance mission and got attacked by horde bats and plaguebearers.

Could have something to do with the cinematic at the very start of the zone where the Alliance gunship shot at the Forsaken fleet from the cover of the clouds. Even Anduin admitted that Genn attacked the Forsaken and broke his orders in the process. It's just that he's a massive hypocrite and all his blabbering about peace is just empty lip service. Because when push came to shove, he did nothing about Genn and Rogers breaking his beloved peace, sending a clear message that his vision of peace is a world in which Alliance members can attack the Horde with impunity.

[Super Dickmann]

There should be an option to put him out of his misery.

Yea i saw it in live too (twice). But yea, he inherited those genes from his dad.

Yea baine.. whats not to hate.

Genuinely going through the content tied to him in Shadowlands gave me the vibe of the Aethas quests in Dalaran. Where the writers know the character is a carfire and are just leaning into it. Hence why Baine is introduced being ditched, you have to save him twice and he just sulks in a corner. Ve'nari even says "The news of this 'Baine' might interest someone." like he were a penny coin on the side of the road.

In general, everything relating to the Azeroth cast is handled almost apologetically. Like when they take you away from the ongoing story so that Taelia and Calia can plead with Bolvar to show you a cutscene of the captured leaders then right after Bolvar just tells you to carry on with your day because even thinking of Thrall, Jaina and Anduin has tired him out. There's no follow up or anything, you could cut this entirely and the game feels a bit self-conscious about wasting your time with these pricks. Bolvar himself could have his role in the story substituted with a camera in the Maw and nothing would change.

[LordVargK]

There should be an option to put him out of his misery.
Could have something to do with the cinematic at the very start of the zone where the Alliance gunship shot at the Forsaken fleet from the cover of the clouds. Even Anduin admitted that Genn attacked the Forsaken and broke his orders in the process. It's just that he's a massive hypocrite and all his blabbering about peace is just empty lip service. Because when push came to shove, he did nothing about Genn and Rogers breaking his beloved peace, sending a clear message that his vision of peace is a world in which Alliance members can attack the Horde with impunity.

Can't remember that cinematic. Was it Horde only?

[Mehrunes]

Can't remember that cinematic. Was it Horde only?

Nope, available to both factions. But from what I recall from the last thread where someone argued what you did, I think some popular addon prevents Legion cinematics in quest zones from being played (at least after you've seen them once). Or something along those lines.

Genuinely going through the content tied to him in Shadowlands gave me the vibe of the Aethas quests in Dalaran. Where the writers know the character is a carfire and are just leaning into it. Hence why Baine is introduced being ditched, you have to save him twice and he just sulks in a corner. Ve'nari even says "The news of this 'Baine' might interest someone." like he were a penny coin on the side of the road.

In general, everything relating to the Azeroth cast is handled almost apologetically. Like when they take you away from the ongoing story so that Taelia and Calia can plead with Bolvar to show you a cutscene of the captured leaders then right after Bolvar just tells you to carry on with your day because even thinking of Thrall, Jaina and Anduin has tired him out. There's no follow up or anything, you could cut this entirely and the game feels a bit self-conscious about wasting your time with these pricks. Bolvar himself could have his role in the story substituted with a camera in the Maw and nothing would change.

Goddamnit, I was drinking when I was reading this and almost choked.

[Raisei]

You forgot that they didn't become a thing just in Legion. They spent a good deal of Wrath going after the Scarlet Onslaught just to fulfill their vendetta. Which they achieved with methods like raising the Scarlets into undeath just for the lols, because they knew nothing would torment them more. All the while comparing themselves to the Forsaken and calling them too soft on multiple occasions.

...And? I didn't say they were cute carebears, did I? The Scarlett Onslaught and Crusade were a murderous cult of fanatics, that killed anyone that disagreed with them, which included both Alliance and Horde. Raising them into undeath at least made them useful. I mean Sally Whitemane is now one of the highest ranking members of the Ebon Blade and she seems to be doing fine, no?

I also did not forget that they were a thing in WotLK and supported both factions in Icecrown.

As I said, the Ebon Blade surely isn't unquestionably good in their methods. Like the Ilidari, Shadow Priests and Warlocks they use the tools of the enemy, the power given to them by the Lich King, which includes Necromancy and Plagues against their enemies, but their goals tend to be beneficial for all of Azeroth's inhabitants, not just themselves. This makes them quite different from Sylvanas and her Forsaken who only ever cared about her revenge and her survival and enjoyed slaughter and destrucion for no reason.

- - - Updated - - -

In general, everything relating to the Azeroth cast is handled almost apologetically. Like when they take you away from the ongoing story so that Taelia and Calia can plead with Bolvar to show you a cutscene of the captured leaders then right after Bolvar just tells you to carry on with your day because even thinking of Thrall, Jaina and Anduin has tired him out. There's no follow up or anything, you could cut this entirely and the game feels a bit self-conscious about wasting your time with these pricks. Bolvar himself could have his role in the story substituted with a camera in the Maw and nothing would change.

I kinda expected more from Taelia meeting her dad again, noticing how he is pretty much a charred corpse and all.

But ye, that scene was weird. I suppose the players who are not reading everything about the expansion for a year now had to be told that these 3 are in Torghast and we will have to snatch them, much how it was pointless that Nathanos played the Pronoun-Game in his death cinematic, because maybe 10% of the playerbase did not know that he was talking of the Maw and the Jailer.

I suppose the Baine-hate did get vindicated though, if even the Jailer finds his spirit unworthy. I assume the cow has no real part to play in this expansion, with the rest it is really hard to say. I would vote that after all she went through, Jaina will not break under torture and Anduin might be able to draw on the Light and his considerable willpower to not succumb, but Thrall? I don't know. Maybe this is the expansion where Metzen takes his hat and the orc dies. Can't really see it from the build-up that happened in BFA, but who knows.

[Soon-TM]

Maybe this is the expansion where Metzen takes his hat and the orc dies. Can't really see it from the build-up that happened in BFA, but who knows.

It would be about time. Poor green dude doesn't have anything left to give. Even his joining the rebellion against Sylvanas felt more like a "look, Green Jesus is with us" moment rather than an actual contribution.

[TheRevenantHero]

Didn't the Horde attack first? In the Stormheim intro Alliance was on a reconissance mission and got attacked by horde bats and plaguebearers.

No. Genn Greymane initiated hostilities in Stormheim in canon.

[Soon-TM]

Alliance was on a reconaissance mission.

Maybe that's what the official papers said, but Genn and Rogers certainly took a lot of liberties, including attacking an enemy head of state during an armistice - which is also a war crime, you know. And the attack was later endorsed by Anduin.

[LordVargK]

Maybe that's what the official papers said, but Genn and Rogers certainly took a lot of liberties, including attacking an enemy head of state during an armistice - which is also a war crime, you know. And the attack was later endorsed by Anduin.

There's no such a thing as warcrimes in WoW. There entire concept of supernational politics is superflous in a world with only two factions (countries).