Heroic dungeons are bloat

[huth]

Dude, it's been said multiple times on this thread.

It doesn't do anything normal dungeons don't currently do. It's bloat.

What gets better? For one, you don't have to grind twice as many dungeons to get to Mythic dungeons and raids.

You can enter (and complete) Mythic Dungeons and raids without ever setting foot into Normal or Heroic dungeons. That's not an improvement from removing the difficulty either. You don't seem to ever have actually thought about any of this.

And it still does the same thing normal dungeons don't do: Provide a greater challenge, even if only in tuning. That you keep having to single that out as a difference should have told you something.

[Trinkzz]

Anything more than 2 difficulty is too much.
I like what WotLK has.

5 man dungeon - normal and heroic.
raid - 10 man and 25 man.
The gear difference between them is 6 or 7 ilevel, not a full 13.

What WOTLK has? It had 10 man, 10 man heroic, 25 man, 25 man heroic. Did you forget that?

You wanna hear something even more funny? It did have a full 13 ilvl difference between them. Compare 10 man heroic and 25 man heroic ICC.

[Mojo03]

You can enter (and complete) Mythic Dungeons and raids without ever setting foot into Normal or Heroic dungeons. That's not an improvement from removing the difficulty either. You don't seem to ever have actually thought about any of this.

Lol okay dude. Ya theoretically you can and it'll progressively become easier to do that over the course of the expansion.

Will the vast, vast majority of people never step foot into a dungeon and go to mythic and raids? no.

You don't seem to have any meaningful contributions to the thread and seem to not be able to grasp the improvements it offers.

I'm not sure what else to say.

[huth]

Lol okay dude. Ya theoretically you can and it'll progressively become easier to do that over the course of the expansion.

Will the vast, vast majority of people never step foot into a dungeon and go to mythic and raids? no.

You don't seem to have any meaningful contributions to the thread and seem to not be able to grasp the improvements it offers.

I'm not sure what else to say.

No, the vast, vast majority will never step foot into mythics and raids. Which only works against you, because you're arguing for taking away an option from them.

And you've yet to make note of any actual improvements this would offer, so there's not exactly a whole lot to grasp.

Maybe say that you will go back to the drawing board and actually figure out what you really want, instead of just randomly asking for things to be taken away.

[Better]

There is no mechanical difference between +2, and +3, same with 4-6, 7-9, and literally everything passed +10. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. Heroic is the first taste of endgame dungeons for more casual players, and an important gearing avenue for LFR for those same players.

There's no real reason to remove heroic, being "bloat" to some % of the playerbase that runs them maybe once an expansion (Honestly this expac you can just skip them altogether without much issue) doesn't mean that they aren't used by players who prefer a more casual approach to the game.

[erifwodahs]

Read through the thread.

I did. There is nothing what wins the point.
M+ is exactly the same bloat as normal to hc to mythic0 is. Same stuff with tougher tuning. The bloats exist to cater to the demographics. Also you can skip HC dungeon farm completely. Do normals and go to mythics - we did it in 135-145 gear the first time around.
Do we want people to que for Mythics? No. Why? Full LFR takes longer than clearing HC and normal together. Would you want a que to hc raid? I think not.
"Scale the numbers down" - then you would have your hc dungeon all over again and you can creep up like that to infinity.
Only thing that could be changed would be names and they would only allow you to que to M2.

I think you fail to see that since we have m+ you can't remove this bloat and all the dungeons could be a M+ dungeon with an affix. Instead of 4 affixes we would just have 5 - one between HC and mythic. One on +2, one on +4, +7 and +10.

[RobertMugabe]

No reason for the tier to exist. It's redundant with normal.

They should remove it and make it Normal -> Mythic. Allow the ability to que for Mythic +0 and take with it the mechanics and difficulty.

LFG should remain for Mythic keystones.

What do you think?

I agree that there should be one less dungeon mode, but not as you've described.

Seriously: normal mode should be the 50-59 bracket, while heroic should exclusively be lvl60's (what you suggest as normal) so that no weird scaling issues happen where lvl60 are actually a burden if they're paired with low lvl 50's. And mythic+0 should be also queueable (since it is on about the same difficulty as pre-mythic heroics) and the hardest non m+ difficulty.

But yeah right now, heroic mode feels totally useless after 1.5 weeks.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no mechanical difference between +2, and +3, same with 4-6, 7-9, and literally everything passed +10. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. Heroic is the first taste of endgame dungeons for more casual players, and an important gearing avenue for LFR for those same players.

There's no real reason to remove heroic, being "bloat" to some % of the playerbase that runs them maybe once an expansion (Honestly this expac you can just skip them altogether without much issue) doesn't mean that they aren't used by players who prefer a more casual approach to the game.

There is a massive mechanical and difficulty difference between heroic and mythic bosses. Many bosses on heroic lack several important boss abilities and generally none of the spells they have are designed to be deadly with the appropriate gear. mythic+0 is a whole different story. Heroic is essentially a minimal step up from normal, hence why it is pretty much redundant.

[ShmooDude]

No one is crying. It’s about better design.

Why not just do heroic+ and increase the tuning 15 ilvl?

Then add a heroic++ and increase it again?

Then heroic+++ and increase it again?

You could change the name indefinitely and go on forever.

It’s bad design. Which is what the current system is.

Normal and heroic are the same. The gear progression is arbitrary. Heroic doesn’t need to exist because of this.

- - - Updated - - -



The mechanics and tuning are different in mythic. Plus there is a lockout.

They are essentially the same in normal and heroic.

There is a difference.

Except Normal and Heroic ARE tuned differently. A (level 60) Normal at 142 is much easier than Heroic at 155. Normal is tuned to be significantly easier at its intended item level. In fact, the health jump from Normal to Heroic is much larger than from Heroic to Mythic.

Hakkar Health:
Normal - 250.3k
Heroic - 383.0k (+53%)
Mythic - 464.6k (+21%)

Just because there aren't additional mechanics doesn't mean they're the same difficulty at relative item levels.

[huth]

There is a massive mechanical and difficulty difference between heroic and mythic bosses. Many bosses on heroic lack several important boss abilities and generally none of the spells they have are designed to be deadly with the appropriate gear. mythic+0 is a whole different story. Heroic is essentially a minimal step up from normal, hence why it is pretty much redundant.

In nearly all fights, it's a single mechanic that is added. That's not exactly "several". Some of them are pretty much irrelevant as well.
Given what randoms you may be dealing with, i'd also seriously question the "not deadly" part. So far, Mythics have generally been a fair bit easier than heroics.

[erifwodahs]

we just need to control the ilvl bloat so we dont need a number squish that breaks half the game every 2 years

merging n/h raids and cutting heroic dungeons would go a long way towards that

It likely would, but it would be a smaller impact since we have a m+, which is the best thing in wow since ever and to feel good it has to be a ladder in difficulty and rewards rather than trying to jump 2 meter gaps for very small rewards. Also gear resets has to happen every tier too which is the main problem but I would not know how to handle it otherwise without making special effects on gear to work on that patch only or something. But that would mean our relative power would be all the time the same and it would suck

[RobertMugabe]

In nearly all fights, it's a single mechanic that is added. That's not exactly "several". Some of them are pretty much irrelevant as well.
Given what randoms you may be dealing with, i'd also seriously question the "not deadly" part. So far, Mythics have generally been a fair bit easier than heroics.

That is simply not true. Anyone who has done mythics week 1 and possibly week 2 without any knowledge will know just how much of a difference the scaled damage and added boss abilities do. Even DBM calls out much more stuff on mythic (including trash mechanics), because it makes such a huge difference.

[huth]

That is simply not true. Anyone who has done mythics week 1 and possibly week 2 without any knowledge will know just how much of a difference the scaled damage and added boss abilities do. Even DBM calls out much more stuff on mythic (including trash mechanics), because it makes such a huge difference.

Not nearly as much as having a random keet with no idea of their class, yes.

[ceall]

okay. some people here don't seem to understand what OP means. i'll try to clarify:

OP suggests to merge normal and heroic dungeons, as that would save us a few itemlevels because they're basically the same (mechanics wise). This can easily be done (and is already done for normal mode) via level scaling: during leveling, the dungeons give lower ilvl and more at max level. This would be the "new" normal mode. In SL that would be ilvl 158.

Then, he wants to take regular mythic dungeons (as they are now) and make them queueable. this could be called "heroic" again. with mythic+ being renamed to heroic+ In SL that would be 171.

he basically shifts ilvls down by 13. normal castle nathria (on the live version being ilvl 200/207) would be 187/194 while mythic nathria would be 213/220 instead of 226/233.

EDIT: I'm neither for nor against OP's suggestion. I just tried to clarify that there's nothing "being taken away" from casuals by OP's approach.

[Argorwal]

The first incarnation of heroic allowed for every leveling dungeon to be available at max level.

Now that we have level scaling, and we can do all dungeons at max level anyway, heroic seems very redundant.

I also feel normal raids feel redundant as well.

Can have normal dungeons (that scale to max) -> LFR for queued content end game

Then mythic dungeons -> Heroic raids for organized groups.

Mythic raiding is kind of its own thing. It is WAY to hard to be the only non-queable raid difficulty.

[glowpipe]

or just scrap normal and heroic alltogheter and make it Torghast->m0->m+
Torghast is a lot harder (not saying its hard, but its harder then normal and heroic snoozefest, so chill your britches) without gear than any of the dungeons. Even mythic. So give us gear and leveling in torghast, and then to zeros and plusses.
I would kill for a leveling and gearing torghast

[alt-ithist]

Anything more than 2 difficulty is too much.
I like what WotLK has.

5 man dungeon - normal and heroic.
raid - 10 man and 25 man.
The gear difference between them is 6 or 7 ilevel, not a full 13.

Icecrown Citadel was 10 man normal, 10 man heroic, 25 man normal, 25 man heroic.

[erifwodahs]

okay. some people here don't seem to understand what OP means. i'll try to clarify:

OP suggests to merge normal and heroic dungeons, as that would save us a few itemlevels because they're basically the same (mechanics wise). This can easily be done (and is already done for normal mode) via level scaling: during leveling, the dungeons give lower ilvl and more at max level. This would be the "new" normal mode. In SL that would be ilvl 158.

Then, he wants to take regular mythic dungeons (as they are now) and make them queueable. this could be called "heroic" again. with mythic+ being renamed to heroic+ In SL that would be 171.

he basically shifts ilvls down by 13. normal castle nathria (on the live version being ilvl 200/207) would be 187/194 while mythic nathria would be 213/220 instead of 226/233.

but you can do that with M+ too:
Nomal+HC: 158
Mythic:171
Mythic+2 (tyra/forty)
Mythic+3 (first affix)
Mythic+4 (second affix)
Mythic +5 (seasonal affix)
Do increments and tuning to have +3ivl gaps and here you have solved the item level bloat.

You character feels shit, because it does not really get that much power especially if you are casual.
You could try to say then make ilvls matter more! Then you have the power bloat again, where you go from 20k hp to 100k hp at the end of expansion.
There are quite a few levels where it's the same as before and it only servers to make the progress smoother rather than jumping 2 meters down or up.

Gear reset is biggest problem here but I believe it is necessary because if there is no reset then there is nothing to progress for. You could try to solve it in some other ways, but your new power has to be better in comparison to the old power on the same content otherwise you gain nothing.
Also m+ requires gear reset and m+ is what keeps a lot of players in game.

[Mojo03]

okay. some people here don't seem to understand what OP means. i'll try to clarify:

OP suggests to merge normal and heroic dungeons, as that would save us a few itemlevels because they're basically the same (mechanics wise). This can easily be done (and is already done for normal mode) via level scaling: during leveling, the dungeons give lower ilvl and more at max level. This would be the "new" normal mode. In SL that would be ilvl 158.

Then, he wants to take regular mythic dungeons (as they are now) and make them queueable. this could be called "heroic" again. with mythic+ being renamed to heroic+ In SL that would be 171.

he basically shifts ilvls down by 13. normal castle nathria (on the live version being ilvl 200/207) would be 187/194 while mythic nathria would be 213/220 instead of 226/233.

EDIT: I'm neither for nor against OP's suggestion. I just tried to clarify that there's nothing "being taken away" from casuals by OP's approach.

I appreciate you. This is close. A couple things missed I noticed.

It also removes having to do the same dungeons twice at fundamentally the same tuning and mechanics relative to your characters ilvl.

Mythic would be the same iteration as it currently is. A bit different mechanics and tuning. It wouldn’t just be a renaming of heroic.

Therefore normal, mythic, mythic +, all have fundamental differences. The experiences feel a bit different.

Where as heroic is just normal 2.0 currently and has no compelling reason to exist.

[anon5123]

Def prefer keeping heroics for a small boost in gear since I will never be able to do Mythics since it's pretty much impossible on my current connection.

Are you playing on dialup or something? Even basic cable in like 2006 was more than enough for WoW.

[Mojo03]

Imagine thinking removing content is a good idea and in the best interest of the player.

Imagine thinking redundant content is content.