As I feared a few minutes after Covenants were announced....it will get worse

[Lolites]

There is the assumption that there is a gigantic group of silent players who play for fun and don't look up their specs or care generally about the state of the game or their character.

I submit that this group is smaller than we theorize. It doesn't take a min/max theorycrafter to google "how to ice mage shadowlands" and people aren't as ignorant of the Internet as they were even a year ago. We think it is easy because any rocket scientist thinks rocket science is easy, but this is a complex game, to be honest, and it doesn't surprise me that most people need to go outside the game to learn how to play the game. Especially with the older, niche audience playing wow who has now been through this multiple times.

some specs have less than 40% people in their top covenant, so even assuming all of them chose it bcs its "best" (which is ridiculous asumption) that still means majority of people playing that spec dont give a fuck...
and given we dont know based on what people choose even if its more people choosing the "best" spec, it might be for thousand reasons other than performance...

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In 90% of all cases the team is already gimped by people not being that skilled. If you are struggling for 4+ hours because of your groups covenant choices then there is a problem with the group already and not the covenant choices. The numbers don't prove anything because it doesn't take into account any popularity of the choices by themselves or people that blindly follow guides.

yeah pretty much this

[Qnubi]

Unless you are in the top 1%. no one cares. This whole Hurr durr you gimp... is just bullshit. Not everyone plays to min max. A lot of people only play to have fun.

I min/max as well. I minimize the stress, and maximize my fun.
This site is honestly pretty good, I will make an alt and pick the absolute worst possible combination possible and pick all the worst talents on purpose, just to see how bad it really is. I am sure that's gonna be a fun experience because it will be unique.

Edit: Holy Sh*t (pun intended), I need to make a Holy Paladin, only 300 people picked Holy Pally with Necrolord. I still have a couple boosts, time to make a Holy Necrodin.

On top of that, I would finally join the ranks of the illusive "1%". Minimize all my power, maximize all the possible errors.

[Gratz]

Don't get why we are talking about anything but Raider.io. /WarcraftLogs and how players misuse them. Does anyone know if these sites factor latency into overall dps? Can't wait for someone to say that latency differences are negligible among other things. Nothing is cast aside when min/maxing.

Good players and/or people that have been playing a long time do not need that website to know if someone is good. Bad players that ruin the pug community every xpac do need that website almost as much as they need air. They will not look at dps ranking, time spent, and they will 100% not look at other people that were in the group you went with. They will not know if you carried or got carried. If someone disconnected or went afk. There are so many things that you can only know by having experience playing the game with others and THAT website stopped players from experiencing that. They are ONLY looking for the biggest colored number on the screen and it needs to be seen in seconds so they don't waste time inviting someone that could be AMAZING. It is pathetic how obvious the practice is.

The same exact thing happens with Warcraftlogs. It is a beautiful tool for good players and best of the best to min/max and have fun tracking it. You give that same tool to the majority and it is underutilized along with being misused.

The mass majority in all their supreme laziness will simply go Website + Website = You are bad= Not inviting. It isn't gaming, it is toxic and every glorified version of gearScore is just another way lazy players will keep shitting on other players all while listing groups for hard carries under the guise of "I"M CHECKING rIADer IO, cause I only take GOOD players cuase I AM good., i use pro website it tells me things."

Gearscore/RaiderIo/and Warcraft logs can fuck right off. (i never used gearscore, but I use the other two.)

[Not A Cat]

In 90% of all cases the team is already gimped by people not being that skilled. If you are struggling for 4+ hours because of your groups covenant choices then there is a problem with the group already and not the covenant choices. The numbers don't prove anything because it doesn't take into account any popularity of the choices by themselves or people that blindly follow guides.

This, a covenant choice won't affect progress unless you're going for world firsts where everyone is relatively close to the same level skill wise that any stat leg ups are what make the difference between top 10 or top 100 worldwide.

For 99% of the playerbase it won't halt your progress. A guild would get much better results focusing on improving mechanical skill over the "right" covenant choice.

[Lei]

Hm. I would wait for the raid to open up with this tbh and the Wf race to start. Maybe nothing will change or maybe WF race and the whole m+ climbing thing will stir up the stats a bit. It's still quite early I think.
Also as it was stated, the data can be slightly wrong if people log out in different spec.

I picked Night Fae as a shaman because I liked the aesthetic, yet I despise the ability and it almost feels like a dps loss every time I use it, so if it was my best choice and it would matter (ie group play) I would actually be reluctant to pick it.

[erifwodahs]

Paladins went with Kyrian! Shocking! I had a hard choice between Kyrian because they are awesome and Venthyr as their ability is even better but it's long CD so that was the deciding factor.
I have never ever considered myself to be a Necro paladin. Even if their ability was way better. Nope and I firmly believe, that most of the players went with what they liked. (Hello Blood Elfs)

[Byleth]

i do see problem, someone who didnt play in quite some time is telling us, who actualy play the game that reality is wrong, and his ideas he got without playing are right, despite being in conflict with reality...

You pretty much nailed my thoughts on the matter.

As soon as OP admitted they haven't played SL, their whole argument became super invalid.

[Lolites]

You pretty much nailed my thoughts on the matter.

As soon as OP admitted they haven't played SL, their whole argument became super invalid.

not to mention when you check his progres on top of inactive he is "lfr warior" so obviously skilled and experienced...

[Cosmic Janitor]

Paladins went with Kyrian! Shocking! I had a hard choice between Kyrian because they are awesome and Venthyr as their ability is even better but it's long CD so that was the deciding factor.
I have never ever considered myself to be a Necro paladin. Even if their ability was way better. Nope and I firmly believe, that most of the players went with what they liked. (Hello Blood Elfs)

I'm sure the split for destruction warlocks happened because they REALLY liked the angelic and fairy theme theme and not because many guides had them as a great m+/cleave pick. (Fairly certain IV a couple of days ago still had them as the raiding pick as well, despite the change log not showing edits to the page).

[LedZeppelin]

It does matter because in many cases classes have Covenant abilities that are completely useless which results in a difference of 10-20% overall - sure, it won't make most content unplayable, but you're deliberately gimping yourself.

then blizzard should buff those abilities

[naeblis495]

me , being a bdsm cocaine edgelord haughty vampire bear :" lmao , what's that "performance" you speak of ? i'm too busy having tea parties,being a snarky asshole and torturing bad souls to hear you."

[Tesshin83]

Shame that choosing a covenant sometimes leads to same result as unequipping weapon. Are you seriously that kind of a player that unequips his weapon just because unarmed combat looks better? Don't be ridiculous. Covenants right now are a failure.

No. Because that's not even remotely true. All the covenants are viable for all the speccs. And those covenants that you claim is the same as being unequipped, have a lot of added benefits which you can't find in the other covenants, like survivability and mobility, which was the point of my thread.

The fact that you can do CE with any covenant combination is direct evidence that the covenant system is working as intended.

[Holdodlig]

Even if it was a 0.0000000001% people would still choose that covenant over any other. Nothing new here.

[Toybox]

For 99% of the playerbase it won't halt your progress. A guild would get much better results focusing on improving mechanical skill over the "right" covenant choice.

I'm tired of this argument, because it paints the picture that skill or character stat optimisation is an either/or choice. Maybe a guild would be better picking one over the other, but picking both wherever applicable is the way progress minded people tend to play. After all, what's the point of figuring out that final 5-10% of your rotation when you're just going to leave a free 5-10% damage buff on the table for no reason?

[Tesshin83]

This, a covenant choice won't affect progress unless you're going for world firsts where everyone is relatively close to the same level skill wise that any stat leg ups are what make the difference between top 10 or top 100 worldwide.

For 99% of the playerbase it won't halt your progress. A guild would get much better results focusing on improving mechanical skill over the "right" covenant choice.

People would have a lot more success in raiding (and dungeons) if they had this mindset. But you know... Muh nuuumbers!

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I'm tired of this argument, because it paints the picture that skill or character stat optimisation is an either/or choice. Maybe a guild would be better picking one over the other, but picking both wherever applicable is the way progress minded people tend to play. After all, what's the point of figuring out that final 5-10% of your rotation when you're just going to leave a free 5-10% damage buff on the table for no reason?

But only 0.5% of the playerbase are able to pick both and succeed at it.

[Toybox]

But only 0.5% of the playerbase are able to pick both and succeed at it.

It's not a binary process. If someone is 90% of the way there, ups their performance by 5%, they've not failed - they've improved. Everyone has the potential to improve, and picking the right kind of borrowed power for the content you're focusing on is going to be a (potentially sizeable) bonus.

[Sorrowseer]

[

Why Blizzard why did you do this? For those of you enjoying the expansion I say great and have fun but the freight train is coming in the form of FARRRR more power unlocks, gear scaling making the differences far more stark and far more access to meaningful abilities.

You were the chosen one anakin Puremallace why didn't you warn blizzard earlier!


Can only echo the echo that is, tuning will come.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I'm tired of this argument, because it paints the picture that skill or character stat optimisation is an either/or choice. Maybe a guild would be better picking one over the other, but picking both wherever applicable is the way progress minded people tend to play. After all, what's the point of figuring out that final 5-10% of your rotation when you're just going to leave a free 5-10% damage buff on the table for no reason?

I always wonder if those people that make this argument would also show up to gun fights with shovels instead, afterall none of them are duelling professionals, so why even try to survive?

[Toybox]

I always wonder if those people that make this argument would also show up to gun fights with shovels instead, afterall none of them are duelling professionals, so why even try to survive?

You can potentially end a hostage situation with a spoon. Doesn't mean a few machine guns aren't helpful

[Garymorilix]

Again, it's nice and all but can anyone show me actual numbers?
Output differences between specs with different covenants?

Then break that down into powerspikes with unlocking certain soulbinds?

What if Pelagos is my best soulbind now but in 3 weeks when I could unlock X at another covenant my best would be that?
Should I switch?

What if the more and more gear I get I have my stat prio change and I now need a new covenant?
What if I unlock my next legendary?

There are so many variables that change every single week that picking your covenant for that 2-5% damage bonus NOW might not even be a good idea in the long run.
This is the reason why we have 0 number breakdowns between covenants.
I don't care why 70% of X spec picked one covenant. They were probably told to do it in another wowhead article with 0 comparison numbers.

Some "high end" raider just said "well this the best" but why and by how much? Who even knows, right.

Don't be sheep. Play whatever the fck you want.